HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[EdT]

Hello Alan,

Thanks for responding to my post. Please do not feel that you need to respond to these comments. I made my peace with all these issues long ago and only offer comments that I think may be helpful.  I am glad to do that - for what they are worth.

I suggest you give some thought to the frame bevelling before lofting patterns. I believe many modelers leave the bevels to the sandpaper, but keep in mind that the frames need to be bevelled inside and out. Patterns need to account for this. Patterns from reliable draftsman do that in a way to enable the bevels to be sanded inside and out with enough wood left to meet the molded thickness requirements of the frame when your finished sanding. Also, keep in mind that at the forward and aft ends, bevels become quite extreme and require installation of very thick frames if unbevelled.  Cant frame bevels are a story in themselves.

 

Some modelers partially pre-bevel - if the patterns show the bevels. I did this for Naiad where all four profiles for every frame were lofted. On Young America patterns also included all four profiles and with the assembly process used - enabled by the CAD lofting method  - left patterns on both fore and aft faces of every frame pair after assembly. This enabled the frames to be completely bevelled before erection - as was done in he shipyard. I am not sure if anyone is doing this besides me but I would not go back.

 

Why do this pre-bevelling? Sanding/paring inside the hull is a pain. Erection of bevelled frames is much easier. It is also more accurate.  You can check the hull fairness as the frames are erected. There are many ways to skin this cat.  I only offer this as food for thought.  I'm not in the persuasion business.

 

Have fun - and good luch with the project.

 

Ed

[druxey]

I'm not in the persuasion business either, but it's good to remember to take off too little rather than too much wood if pre-bevelling. 

[EdT]

Sorry guys. I seem to be pushing on a string. My suggestions - perhaps not expressed well - relate more to the lofting than to the way or when the wood frame is actually bevelled. Frame patterns need to provide sufficient material (usually on the inside of the smaller profile) so the frame can be bevelled without thinning the smaller face. There are various methods to do this, but it needs to be done. Sorry if this point was obscured in my comments.

 

Ed

[AON]

My short journey (so far) with The Shipwrights Vade Mecum

 

Started with a quick browse and was lost.  

Came back to it fresh and took my time… a dim light illuminated.  

Came back yet a third time and opened a second copy in another window and kept it on the Glossary (definitions of words) section. This made unraveling some of the words and phrases a bit quicker and so easier to digest.  

 

What have I learnt so far is mind boggling!

 

I know why the body is shaped the way it is: Length and breadth, fitting the guns, carry more sail, reduce water resistance, stability, stiffness, speed, steering, preventing rolling and pitching and simply looking damn good.

(I enjoyed this section so much I honestly wished it didn't end)

 

I learned why the 74 gun ships and the single deck 44 gun ships were the best at what they did and considered near perfect.

 

Plans and Lines: I have quite a bit better understanding of most of the lines.  The red lines in the body plan are the diagonals … and what they represent.  I know what the green line in the sheer means (and that my plans don’t seem to have it)

 

I know about flats and dead rising and rising of the floor.

I also learnt about water coming in through the rudder hole (helm port)!

 

I learnt a lot of terms and names that some are understood but most are still a bit of a mystery so I need to go back for a fourth, fifth, sixth… reading until I get it.  The “Rosetta Stone” plates would have been an invaluable aid!

 

And the tables… OMG!  

 

In short this has been one fantastic ride so far.  Thanks to the forum and members who steered me to it.

I highly recommend any and all other beginners out there should take this journey. 

 

[AON]

What have I been up to?

(I didn't give up)

 

Just bought a copy of Rees's Naval Architecture 1819-20 as a companion reference to the PDF of theThe Shipwrights Vade Mecum as the plates (figures) in Rees are very similar to those missing in the PDF ($80 versus $500-$1000).... so I am now busy re-reading parts of the Vade Mecum.

 

Many thanks to YKWYA for recommending  the book.

 

Reviewing my sheer plan(s) versus scantlings and all and noticed I am missing the hollow that helps create the flat where the futtock meets the keel at the dead flat section -O- .

 

NMM quoted me printed copies of ship's contracts but this department won't take payment via credit card. They suggested I might rather have electronic images and I thought I should see what they cost... Haven't heard back from NMM regarding images as yet.  Also looking at purchasing framing drawings.

 

Hoping to be moving forward very soon.

[AON]

Minor progress...

 

I moved all my stations and Keel down so relevant dimensions are off the base line of the Sheer Plan not the underside of the keel.

This makes all scantlings (dimensions) off Steels tables relate directly to my dimensions.

 

I then attempted to loft the features and had three problems

1) my computer kept crashing

2) the lines off the stern plan (plane) caused major defects due to its extreme references not relating directly to the next fuller section.

3) similar issue with the bow end Station Y except it caused a major inwards fold to appear between Stations 10 and 12

 

This was fixed by doing small groups of 4 stations at a time, rebuilding and saving the file before going to the next group.

I also did not include the Stern Plan nor Station Y

I also did my loft feature as a solid as opposed to a thin skin as was done by a member in an earlier posting under Scantlings.

 

There are a few ripples revealing themselves on my hull that will need some attention (particularly at station 28).

I will also be comparing the tables from Steels to my dimensions and making some adjustments.

 

A lot of work ahead ... and still waiting on some word from NMM for a frame drawing of HMS Elephant and build contracts for it and the Bellerophon.

 

Until next time.

Alan

[WackoWolf]

Excellent CAD work. Post more pictures of the CAD work if you have the time, and Thank you for sharing this with all of us.

[hexnut]

Very nice.  Depending on what you want to use the cad for, you might want to:

1) extend the frame station sections beyond the rails so that they are a consistent height before lofting, then chop off at the desired rail profile.

2) get buttock and water lines faired and attached to the station lines, then use those to control the loft surfaces.

 

Or, if you just want to use the model to make nice frames and hand fair them once in place, what you already have is perfect and ignore everything that I just said...

[AON]

Hexnut,

 

The purpose of lofting at this early time was to see if the hull faired well with the dimensions I took off an electronic image ... paper stretch and all. A friend had shown me exactly how much stretch could be experienced in 200+ old drawings!

 

My intention is to create my templates for my build in CAD from the 3D model.  This way everything should fit like a glove (if my wood working skills are up to the task).  I do not intend to 100% create a completed 3D ship model... just as much as I need ... and I suspect I will continue draughting through the physical build as I discover I need more.

 

After having been recently schooled in scantlings     I have considerable work ahead of me to check my measurements to that of Steels and then possibly to the build contract(s).

 

I just received my quote (50 pounds sterling) and thumb nail image for a framing drawing of HMS Elephant from NMM and having validated it as what I want I will be ordering it tomorrow after they send me the form.

From this I will be better able to complete framing modelling, knowing which frames extend to where and how.

 

I also found out today that electronic images of the ship build contracts (HMS Bellerophon and Elephant) are outrageously expensive and so will be ordering the photocopies at 21.28 pounds sterling each.

 

Hope you and others stick around as I am sure I will need some direction as I proceed.

Alan

[AON]

Hexnut

Just reread your suggestions and compared to what Don did (see posting in Scantlings forum)

I will have to give this a try and see if it resolves my SW conflicts for those two stations

Alan

Edited March 11, 2014 by AON

[hexnut]

I just read through the "scantlings" topic, and all though there is a lot I don't understand (I still don't really know very much about ships yet) I do have some experience with surfacing, Don's approach makes sense to me.

Even though the hull I'm working on is a lot smaller, newer, and vastly less complex, getting the stations, buttocks and wl's all attached and faired was the toughest part.  --the Zebra stripe command got a good work-out, constantly checking for surface glitches.

One thing that helped for my particular hull shape (I don't know if it will do any good for yours or not) was to split it amidships and drive the forward surface w/ the wl's and the aft w/ the buttock lines.

[AON]

Thanks Hexnut (and I am left wondering ... why hexnut?)

 

I can see myself sitting through a few Solidworks online tutorials before I will be able to get this to work.

Alan

[hexnut]

 (and I am left wondering ... why hexnut?)

I used to play with cars a fair bit (hence the avatar) plus, my company logo is hexagon-shaped. It was just something I started using on another forum years ago and I was too lazy to think of a new one...

[AON]

Received my framing drawing image from NMM

Funny how a framing drawing said to be specifically for HMS Elephant disagrees with the plans made specifically for HMS Elephant.

 

As I mentioned earlier HMS Goliath shows it completely removed.

I prefer the look of the rail rising over the gun port for a consistent port open area.

 

One nice thing, as opposed to some of the 74 gun framing plan thumbnails on NMM this one I rec'd that had no thumbnail on the website is very simply and clean.... few bent frames.

 

Alan

[druxey]

The disposition of frame was drawn up before a ship was built. The second example, sheer and profile, looks to be the 'as built' draught. If it is, it will have the launch date on the title. This will explain the disparity in the two drawings.

Edited March 13, 2014 by druxey

[AON]

Thank you Druxey

Of course you are correct, the "plans" drawing is as built.

 

Anxiously awaiting the copies of the contracts

Alan

[AON]

The following three groups of images explains the process I am using to fair my lines.

 

You might ask why am I creating a new lofted hull?

 

Although my first attempt was very clean (see image below with all connectors showing (those are the light blue points the computer tacks to the model to connect everything) I could not get my first or last station in the model.  I needed to add guide lines and didn’t know how. Three plus years ago I couldn’t model a simple pencil in 3D so I’ve come a long way.  The guide lines help the computer connect the various sketches (frames) made on all the different levels. In the end the stern sketch would not connect because the lowest guide line did not extend to it.

 

While learning how to do this I discovered my first lofted hull was easier than when I added the guide lines. Without additional mirrored guidelines on the other half the computer seemed to be confused and inserted connectors in the oddest places creating artificial wedges and twists in my model.

 

When I right click the mouse and pick show all connectors I can see connectors out of alignment and need to manually move them.  My final attempt (yes I had to do it more than once) had only one connector out of alignment…. As you will see.

 

Even though I have the lofted hull I think it is important to visually inspect Breadth and Buttock lines as they are more revealing than the lofted hull.  I could turn on what is called a Zebra line view to reveal pattern issues on the 3D image but it seems too much information confuses this old man

Edited March 17, 2014 by AON

[AON]

CREATING BUTTOCK LINES TO FAIR THE DRAWING

 

I created BUTTOCK LINES on vertical planes through the hull from stem to stern because I wanted to see how she faired as the original draughtsman might have done.

 

BUTTOCK PLANES

• I  created a second plane by offsetting the shear plane 0.56 feet which happens to coincide with most station line termination points in the rabbet

• I then created additional planes by offsetting them at 10 feet each

• I then sketched polylines on each individual plane (buttock lines of my own making) and locked them (pierce mate) at each point they intersect with a station

o Peirce mate by picking the station line, hold down the “Ctl” key and pick the polyline point (*) I want to mate to it, then pick “pierce” mate.  The point then locks to the line where they intersect on the plane.

o While doing this I found two errors in my sketches and as importantly can easily see irregularities in my lines!

 

[AON]

USING THE SOLIDWORKS LOFT FEATURE TO CREATE THE SOLID HULL

 

This is my second (or really fourth) go at this.  I admit that even after having received good advice from forum members I still had to watch three videos to “get it”.

·         Created four guide lines using 3D sketch

·         Locked the lines to points on each section using “coincident” or “intersect” type mates

·         Opened the Loft Feature and picked four station outlines and all four guide lines

·         When these resolved I rebuilt and saved the file, luckily as my computer crashed twice near the end. Without the saving ritual I would have lost everything.

·         Note that the starboard side does not have guide lines and so has some extra waviness to the hull.  I had manually made some adjustments for show afterwards but mainly I am just looking at the port side (with the guide lines).

 

Although I can see the divit in the hull at the stern the bow seems good ... not so in the earlier Buttock line review.

[AON]

CREATING BREADTH LINES TO FAIR THE MODEL

 

I didn’t actually create lines. I created planes through the lofted model by offsetting the Breadth Plane (lowest plane) and then while looking from above, sectioned through each plane to see the hull outline.

 

Although I only created four at 5 foot intervals I can easily create as many as I feel I need.

 

Having done all the above I could see where things did not flow smoothly. These areas shouldn’t exist and will need to be cleaned up.

 

I will now take my time to make adjustments and then see how she fairs!

 

To recap, I think it is important when making a 3D model of the hull to inspect Breadth and Buttock lines to help identify areas of concern.  I should create a few breadth sections in the upper half of the hull to see what is happening in that area.

 

 

As always, I hope those in the know will point out my errors and keep me from straying too far.

Edited March 17, 2014 by AON

[druxey]

Well, you certainly are tenacious, Alan! Glad you hit 'save' at intervals. Obviously more tweaking is still needed to - literally - get the kinks out. Running a couple of test diagonals might not be amiss, unless it overheats your software.

[AON]

Test diagonals. .... I'll give it a go tonight if I find a moment.

 

The software is fine, it is the memory that is the problem (I know the feeling intimately)  

 

Like me the computer is getting on in years ... possibly 84 years old in dog years (the computer, not me ...yet)  

[hexnut]

Nice work!  Some suggestions:

 

1) work only on a "half model", you can mirror it later. This will save on the number of points that it has to interpolate, reduce some variables and help a lot when you model the rounded bow. (sketch the bow waterlines full to make sure you will have tangency, then split for the half model guide curves.)

 

2) extend station lines to a flat top ala Hahn method.  this will help the breadth lines stay fair all the way to the top. (try lofting just to the topmost of the breadth curves that you have drawn, just to see if that cleans up any.)

 

3) now that you have guide curves attached to the station lines, try lofting surfs w/out using the actual stations, or dropping a few.  Take asection where you had a gouge or bulge before, see if it is close enough to the original section. Sometimes it will fair well and be close to the original cross-section, just using that original station to define it forced the surf to accelerate too hard to maintain tangency at that pointset.

 

As far as hardware, I don't know how much ram you have in it, but with single-threaded ops like 3-d cad, sheer clockspeed is a huge factor.  The good news is there are some fast fairly cheap boxes out there now. (Not as much fun as a tablesaw, maybe, but quite useful...) also don't buy "fully loaded" ram simms from the computer mfg., buy ram direct from Kensington or Tiger and install @ home--much cheaper.

Edited March 17, 2014 by hexnut

[AON]

Good evening Bob (hexnut)

 

Just visited your build and have to say that before I did I realized you had much greater 3D CAD talent than I, seeing your work just added proof.

 

I understand your point 1, don't know what Hahn method means in 2 but do understand the rest, do not understand what lofting surfs are (will have to exercise my Google fingers on this).

 

Thank you for the tips. I will try these out through the week JFTHOI.

 

Alan

 

PS: Google revealed your lofting surfs was an abbreviation for "lofting surfaces", and also what the Hahn method is....DOH !

Edited March 17, 2014 by AON

[AON]

Good evening Druxey!

 

I inserted a geometrical reference plane at 45° from Breadth Line (Plane) 3 and sectioned through the hull along this plane to simulate a test diagonal.

I also turned on the station planes to identify locations of any deformations.

There is one at station 28 near the stern that was seen in the other views from this mornings post.

 

I can change the angle or elevation to whatever I want to create other diagonal sections.

 

I believe this is what you were suggesting.

Does give a slightly different perspective.

 

Alan

[AON]

To help identify areas that likely need adjustments I created sections from the top of the keel upwards at 1 foot intervals and then marked the stations.

The PDF below is a select few of them.

 

I've made screen shots of my station sketches with dimensions visible so I do not loose the original dimensions as I nudge things back and forth and then view the results.

 

I am also presently thinking ahead to how to build the station frames.

I am leaning towards making each frame as one piece and etching the chocks and scarf joints into them rather than building each piece individually.

This will make them stronger and piece alignment will not be compromised.

 

I am also considering  hollowing (shelling) the 3D model to the moulded depth (thickness) of the frames and then putting the 1" gaps (slices) between teach frame and cutting out the futtock steps to create the templates.

This would have the bevel in the 3D model/templates and reveal the maximum/minimum outside/inside sizes to which I can mark off and pre-shape to before the assembly.

 

My thoughts at the moment, possibly the description isn't clear but as I develop the plan I will reveal it ... if it continues to make sense to follow this thought.

 

Fairing the Hull - ship sections.pdf

[druxey]

Yes: those diagonals will show up irregularities very quickly. In this case, you knew they were there already. By straightening out the kink, it will go a long way towards correcting the waterlines and sections. On the other hand, the smooth curve forward confirms fairness there!

[AON]

Thank you Druxey.

 

I did a couple other diagonal sections to get a different perspective ... and of course you are correct!

I've learnt so much already and haven't built anything yet!

 

Joined the NRG and just rec'd my Model Ship Builder's Book 1 .... wasn't able to put it down last night.

 

Still waiting to receive my copies of the two Build Contracts (HMS Bellerophon and Elephant) from NMM.

 

Tried nudging station lines in my model and the existing Loft Feature is making things difficult.

I will have to work from a copy of the file, delete the loft feature, make mods suggested earlier by hexnut, adjust one station line and loft that small section alone to see results, then repeat as necessary.

Once that station is faired I will move on to the next station of concern.

Just realize that not only may the station identified be the problem for the section, but the adjacent stations may be part of the problem also.

 

It is difficult to make progress but if I don't get this part right anything after will compound it.

Edited March 20, 2014 by AON

[druxey]

Fairing is much like Whack-a -Mole: correct one thing, and another pops up! Eventually they'll all keep their heads down….

[AON]

Completed two of four sections ... I think

After I get the last two sections cleaned up I'll join them all and see if it's true!

 

PS - In the middle is a reference grid I created to help me eyeball how far to move things

 

PPS - Hexnut.... this was faster and cleaner

                         My computer thanks you                       

Edited March 21, 2014 by AON