HMS Bellerophon 1786 by AON – scale 1:64 – 74-gun 3rd Rate Man of War - Arrogant-Class

[Don9of11]

Alan, I've been giving some thought to your work and not to through a monkey-wrench into your thought process but consider my hasty attempt to produce the stern of my ship. I have produced three images which I hope illustrate my idea.

 

Consider how the transoms are shaped as they come up the stern post and using water-lines connect them. In my images I actually went above the wing transom, stop short of the keel and carried my imaginary transoms to the middle line vs. ending right on the stern post. I know the transoms don't go that far down but I did this to illustrate my idea. I used frame 36 as a guide curve and I have a little gap in my surface-lofts.

 

Is this not what you're trying to achieve?

 

 

 

 

[hexnut]

Looks nice, Don, are you going to use a variable round once the surfaces are stitched together?

[AON]

Thank you for the comments and guidance Druxey and Don

 

I will definitely take another look at my "corner" issue.

 

Don, the answer is both Yes and No.

I do not think the wing transom shape is quite correct... look at where I have a corner problem... you have no "corner".

Take a look at the photo Druxey posted on the former page.

There is a definite "shaping" of the wing transom that I guess I haven't quite gotten correct as yet

I can see it on the Bellona build also.

 

BTW... I hate that you could produce the shape so (seemingly) easy.

Tell me it wasn't that easy (even if you have to lie to me)

Edited September 19, 2014 by AON

[druxey]

Part of the problem both of you gentlemen may be facing is relying too much on station sections so far aft. You can'r assume their accuracy here. The contours change very rapidly as seen in vertical section. I'd rely far more on waterlines (aka transom shapes), buttock lines and proof diagonals to fair things up.

[Don9of11]

I know that my transom lines are not correct. I took my inspiration from Goodwin's, English Man of War pg. 24, top left illustration which shows the disposition of the cant frames. Also, I've been following and studying the HMS Bellona by SJSoane - Scale 1:64, 1760 English 74 gun, as designed, build log and paying special attention to the NMM model of the Bellona and the early stages of the SJSoane's own model where the transom pieces are added.

 

The transom and fashion pieces all curve inward to meet last frame and as Druxey pointed out the contours change rapidly. I simply drew a curve at my water-lines and connected the dots so-to-speak. I made no attempt to do it accurately but simply to illustrate. If you look at the stern view, the corner you refer to I think is going to naturally develop and as Hexnut suggest a variable round will be needed after everything is knitted together. 

 

It took me about half-an-hour to produce the stern surface, no lie

 

Edited September 19, 2014 by Don9of11

[AON]

Don,

 

Sorry (I apologize but we Canadians are famous for apologizing when not necessary) but this is exactly what I did on the 29 Aug and was told it was incorrect.

 

It was simple to do and since then I've been trying to imitate something that now I think I am being told I should not (????)

 

Either I'm just thick in the head or I'm mighty thick in the head.

I don't get it.

It has been a trying day on all fronts ... and I am supposed to be working so I have got to go.

 

Going to have to take some time to clear my head, and re-read it all to understand what I am not getting.

 

I am however glad it makes sense to someone. :^)

 

Don't youse guys go anywhere 'cause I have a strong inkling I'll be a need'n all the help I can get.

 

Alan

[AON]

Once again I apologize for airing my frustration with completing this shaping challenge of the wing transom.

I am worried I may have put some good people off.

I said I'd post warts and all and today's there were some warts.

 

If my Solidworks skills were at all better I would have nailed this ages ago.

 

I reference the excellent photo of the Bellona build at the following link (go to entry #272) to see the shape I strive to achieve

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/196-hms-bellona-by-sjsoane-scale-164-1760-english-74-gun-as-designed/page-19

 

In my two photos below (one is in profile the other in isometric) I have just deleted (in a copy of the model) all the guidelines

Using the waterlines and the sketch I made of the wing transom shape I get an extended corner that I just cannot seem to get rid of.

 

The green line in the isometric view depicts the intersection of the wing transom with the frame at that elevation.  Of course it will actually be lower as can be seen in the slope of the wing transom timber sketched on the stern post the back ground. This line helps me visualize where I am at that point.

 

Hex nut mentions a "variable round once the surfaces are stitched together".

I confess I do not understand what is meant by the latter part but the variable round is a feature applied to solids and the loft feature is not a solid.

At least I cannot get it to work just as I cannot trim or extrude cut a lofted feature.

 

At this point I feel I have two options:

1) continue my struggle for a few more days

2) accept that I haven't the skill level to get the proper shape in the lofted feature and when I have made it a solid to cut the frames I can then reshape the wing transom with fillets and extruded cuts

 

and then there is plan B:  take a rasp/file/sanding stick  to the wood and reshape it when I get to that stage of modelling.

 

Sorry again if I transferred any of my pain to any of you.

Members here are a God send and I'd be nowhere without your helpful comments and encouragement.

 

Regarding my "corner" problem ... for now I will sleep on it.

Edited September 20, 2014 by AON

[mtaylor]

Alan,

 

I can understand the struggle to do it "right" even though I'm not a CAD person and what you're doing is foreign to me, don't give up.  It may not be a lack of skill, it could be a bug....errrrr...  feature of the software.

 

But I can see the wisdom of cutting your losses and using the file and sandpaper on the wood. 

[AON]

It is 6:07 am

The sun has yet to grace the horizon to reveal the glorious crack of dawn

I had a fantastic sleep and awoke with an idea

A simple idea I might add

If this works all I can say is "isn't that they way it always turns out when things seem impossible?"

Wish me luck as I may not be beaten yet

[Don9of11]

I'm still following your work Alan with great interest. I like the photos you reference from the Bellona build, I hadn't seen those. I'm just getting up myself and will read through what you have done and maybe offer some suggestions. So far as I can see your SW skills are very good, don't give up.

[AON]

I think I've got it!!!            

 

Will post later today

Have to get ready to go out and get the paint for my workroom

Hope to be moving everything back in to it next weekend

[druxey]

Oh, the suspense, Alan! Did you achieve a break-through or not????

[AON]

First

I managed to get the angled plane.... I might add it was simple

First I created a horizontal plane at exactly the point the wing transom upper outer corner intersects with the keel on the sheer plane

Then I inserted an AXIS at this point on the new plane... This is my pivot point

 

Second

I picked INSERT > REFERENCE GEOMETRY > PLANE

I picked that I wanted it inserted at an angle and typed in the angle of the slope of the wing transom

I picked the new horizontal plane and then I picked my pivot point (the axis line)

and it inserted the plane on the opposite side I wanted

I picked reverse and there it was

Edited September 20, 2014 by AON

[AON]

Then I sketched the outline of the outer top side of the wing transom on the angled plane

 

Then inserted another plane offset from the angled plane and sketched the rounded corner outline to it.

You will see I still had the bad "extended corner" loft feature turned on to see it

When I was doing my sketch on the offset plane it created a shadow effect below the angled plane (where it cut through the loft feature) and I added my line along the shadow.

Edited September 20, 2014 by AON

[AON]

Then I did my lofting in batches.

The wing transom has the corner at the top and the round just below it

 

I admit the shape is not right, the profile of the hull is incorrect, BUT I GOT IT!

 

I should mention I had to draw a shorter lofting guideline line on new planes that were directly over top of the established waterlines

The loft feature recognizes the shorter line to create the shape.

The longer waterlines confuse it.

 

When I section the loft horizontally I can see the shape is wrong.

I will have to redo it all properly

[druxey]

I've always found buttock lines and diagonals more helpful than waterlines at the stern, frankly.

[AON]

Regarding the shaping of the upper wing transom:

 

I have been working on the final shape of the top side of the upper wing transom and the blending into the hull... checked with sections at various elevations.... and I believe I am getting quite close to the proper shape. It seems to match the plan more closely and looks to me like the images I see in Ree's Plates and approaching the likeness of the photos that have been posted.

 

I inserted a guide curve 1 foot below which represents the underside of the upper wing transom timber.  It took some time but I've almost got it blended properly.  The corner between these elevations has a wee bit of an undercut to it.  I can see it as I spin the model slowly around.  If I knew how to 1) make a movie with this program (which it can easily do) and 2) post an avi attachment, you could see it too!  You can see it a bit in the third image in the shadow of the reflected light on the shape.

 

We have a new kid (less than half my age) starting at work on Monday and if I am lucky he just might be able to teach me!

 

I need to insert a few additional guide curves below the underside of the upper wing transom to eliminate the corner seen below the 1 foot elevation guideline.... so try to ignore the fact that remnants of the corner are still there.

 

Please critique the images below and let me know if, in your opinion, I need to clean my glasses and possibly book an appointment for an eye alignment.  

[AON]

Spent some time away attempting to put my work room back into order and while engaged in that I had another thought about this extended corner issue on the lower wing transom.

 

I have always attempted the lofting of the stern hull from the top down, doing the upper wing transom with the corner first.  The computer completes the calculation for this first and blends it into everything else afterwards.

 

I wondered what might happen if I reversed it; did it from the bottom (keel) up.  Then the computer would not calculate the corner until the very end and it might not blend the same way eliminating the extended corner.

 

I tried this and it seems to have made a difference.  I am happy with the results and so I am considering this task completed.

 

On to the next!

 

PS: You will note the short vertical guideline I added in the "top level last" image. This line is a curve (adjusted by eye) and eliminates the undercut I was experiencing in the corner.

Edited October 1, 2014 by AON

[druxey]

You will still need to check fairness with some buttock lines and proof diagonals, Alan.

[Don9of11]

I think it looks good Alan.

 

I was looking this over and maybe you have thought about this yourself but here's a suggestion, I was thinking it might be easier to loft the section from the last frame to the blue line then loft the lower section of the stern. Of course that would leave you with a sharp edge which then all you need to do is add a corner radius.

 

I am learning not to spend to much time making it perfect the first time because in the end you need to check it with the diagonal lines and buttock lines as druxey suggest and the lines on the drawing while necessary to start, will not be the lines you actually end up with.

 

 

 

 

[AON]

Sorry for the delayed response

 

I've been busy reassembling my rebuilt/extended workroom and it is just now in a useable state.

 

Also been making phone calls all over the banana belt looking for Silkspan for the sail making seminar I signed up for being held next month in Niagara on the Lake (or NOTL as we type it up here). I had to drive over the river on the weekend into Niagara Falls New York and go to Abe's Hobby Shop to get any.... he has a good supply. Getting across the border was a real treat... 30 minutes in line

 

RE: re-re-re-fairing.... every bleeding time I start looking at it I see something that might be better if tweaked just a wee bit more ... so because I am a slave to this new obsession of mine I will be at this for some time. It has got to pay off down the road... right?!?

 

Don - I still cannot manage to fillet (add a corner radius) to the lofted feature. I'd love to know how you manage it.

 

Alan

Edited October 8, 2014 by AON

[AON]

For those following and wondering what happened to my progress here... I have switched gears and have been working on the schooner CHARLIE for a friend.

 

Hope to be back to my first order of business early in the new year.

[AON]

The refit of the schooner Charlie is complete.

I finished my workroom (installed the missing door trims) on Monday

Planed down an extra door jamb and ripped to size to make the trims for my modelling table edges.  They are installed (glued, pinned and clamped at the moment) but not complete.

They will need sanding and the table requires painting in the next few days to be complete.

So I finally find I am back on my Bellerophon.

I am looking forward to beginning the actual scratch build of this ship but must finish my plans first.... completing my 3D model to create and print my cutting templates.

 

After careful study and measurements off the ship's plans I have decided how I might complete this area.

 

I created yet one more plane on the sheer plane to layout the transom outline as measured.  The lower transom has an arc or radius to it.  You can see in my layout I simply drew a line between the two outer points, offset the line 4" (as measured) and drew a three point arc.

 

When looking down from above the upper transom has a 12" deep arc from sheer line (center line) to the outside (as measured).

Next I will complete the profile of the upper transom and then attempt to create the lofted feature and add it to the rest of the 3D model.

 

As the sun has risen well above the yard arm ... and this is the end of 2014...  I will slowly make my way to the wardroom to commence celebrations and so I wish everyone a Happy New Year!

[druxey]

Happy New Year and plain sailing in Billy Ruff'n!

[AON]

I created new planes at the different deck levels where the transom direction (shape) changes and drew my arc's in.

These ended up being 50.5 ft radius.

This was accomplished by inserting a "point" on the plane and then mating it via "pierce" to the earlier transom line from yesterday that passes through the plane.

I drew a center line on the plane passing through this point and then offset it the distance to the hull as measured off the plan.

 

     Width measurements were:

               roundhouse deck level = 20 feet

               quarter deck level = 24 feet

               upper deck level = 26 feet

 

The arc was trimmed back to the centre line on one side as I would only loft half the transom as the extending lines might confuse the loft feature.

 

I then added yet one more plane at the highest most elevation of the centre stern frame under the rail at 52'-6" and added another arc.

 

I then "connected the dots" of the extreme outer ends of the arcs using 3D sketch (I got this idea from Don's posting above)

 

This required some 3D manual fine tuning to blend the line into the shape of the hull

 

Once I had that where I thought I should stop I used the Loft Feature to fill in the shape.

 

I then added a few extra lines to allow me to lofted in the shape of the missing upper port aft part of the hull.

 

Now I need to complete the keel and posts.

Edited January 1, 2015 by AON

[druxey]

Looking better, Alan, but the radius below the 'point' at the outer corner of the wing transom (pics 2 and 3 above) should increase more rapidly. Imagine trying to force a plank into shape around that, even across it at about a 45 degree angle!

[AON]

Thank you Druxey

I'll have a look at some photos from forum builds and books and then play with it some more.

 

Meanwhile I had extruded my keel and post sketch to the maximum thickness of 1-1/2 feet.

 

You can see the hull shape at the stern disappears into it prematurely.  This is because the stern post is not a constant thickness but notched away and tapered.  Same thing at the stem post but not as dramatic.

 

I included a couple snap shots with the keel and posts made a bit transparent so you can see where the hull disappeared to.

[AON]

I looked at images of the Bellona transom which was better than most images in books I have

Then I adjusted the radius as much as possible, I believe, to reduce the sharpness in the turn at the corner

 

Following are two images, before adjustments and after

 

Druxey, is this "more better?" (as the young'uns say)

 

Alan

[AON]

good photo from forum at:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/2926-hms-bellerophon-1786-by-fake-johnbull-amativictory-models-172-vanguard-kit/page-2

 

post number 20

picture number 6

[druxey]

Much closer! if you run some 'planking' lines across, you'll quickly see if there is a sharp bend anywhere across the surface.