HMS Vanguard by RMC - FINISHED - Amati/Victory Models - scale 1:72

[RMC]

I have found putting the hounds on acceptably to be quite difficult.  Positioning  them so that the tops are horizontal both laterally and fore and aft (the latter given the rake of the masts) proved to be rather a pain. Some adjustments are sure to be needed.

 

The mizzen hounds were a particular problem as there are no cheeks, and therefore nothing very much to attach them to. I ended up positioning one cheek as best I could; drilling a hole through it into the mast to receive an eyelet.  Once this was positioned I repeated the procedure with a hole drilled lower on the hound. All going well, the hound was then correctly positioned and supported by the two eyelets. The whole lot was then fixed with gel CA.  Once dry, the eyelets were cut off flush with the surface of the hounds.  The procedure was then duplicated with the other hound.

 

In the photo below, only the first hound has been attached, and the eyelets had not then been cut off flush.

 

Edited August 13, 2015 by RMC

[RMC]

I made an unpleasant discovery - the hole for the collar of the mainstay is too small. The mainstay is 2mm, so I presume the 'rope' for the collar is the same. The hole which is provided among all the pieces of the headrails is considerably less than 2mm. Enlarging the hole without damage proved alarming and quite difficult. (See the enlarged hole below.)

 

For those who may not have installed the headrails I suggest you drill out the hole to at least 2.5mm just to make sure. For those who have installed the headrails, good luck. Just how to thread the collar through the hole is something I don't care to think about at this stage.

 

 

I decided to substitute Syren rope for the rigging. I think it will probably turn out alright, though with some trepidation. The dimensions of the Syren rope differ a little from the rope specified and it has some tendency to unravel. It is however, beautifully made and is far superior to much of the thread supplied.

Edited August 14, 2015 by RMC

[RMC]

I have now made my first attempt at serving.  It's something I've been putting  off for a while. The result has been acceptable, but I am certainly hoping that practice will bring improvement. Alexey Domanoff's machine certainly does the job, though it takes a bit of getting used to.  I found it a little difficult to keep the thread taught - mainly because of my poor knot tying. It is also a bit wasteful of thread, and as I am using Syren thread, perhaps I am a little more sensitive to this than otherwise.  I have a suggestion for Alexey that may help mitigate problems for people like me that I will send to him later.

 

Incidentally, I find it ironic that having gone to the trouble of buying in the Syren thread, I'm now covering it up.

 

 

 

I have made one set of tackle pendants. Never having heard of them (not that that means much), I would have overlooked them altogether, had I not read the instructions.  It just goes to show ...... Here more practice is needed to finish of the ends of the loops.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2015 by RMC

[Aleksei Domanov]

Yes, please send it asap as I'm going to make new video about using serving machine and it's options. I'll be glad to include your suggestions in that video.

[GuntherMT]

If you don't need to serve a line for the entire width of the machine, move the end pieces closer together.  The closer they are, the easier it is to keep even tension on the thread.

 

Also, don't tie knots, wrap the rope around the end pieces and clamp them with an alligator clamp or binder clamp so it can't loosen up, and you can hold it tight while you are clamping.

 

I use the Syren rope as well, and there isn't much wastage if you use the minimum width between posts for what you are serving, and clamp the ends instead of messing with knots.  I presume you aren't using the Syren .008 as the actual serving thread, because yea, I wouldn't do that.  You want the thinnest thread you can get actually, the thinner the better.

[RMC]

Alexey: I have sent a note to you - whether it's useful or not ....... A clearer video is a very, very good idea.

 

Brian: thanks for the suggestion.  I did have the end pieces as close as possible.  Your suggestion of alligator clips is an excellent one. It may make my suggestion to Alexey redundant.

 

Arthur, a bit belatedly: the thickness of the served pendants is 1.6mm so that's looks to be about right for the collar!

Edited August 16, 2015 by RMC

[RMC]

Arthur: pendants? - look closely - I have

 

For the other: the Syren stuff I have used is 1.37mm + any serving = approx 1.6mm.  The next size of the Syen is too big (after serving ) so the 1.6mm has to be it - though I will do some experiments on the larger size.

Edited August 16, 2015 by RMC

[RMC]

Brian: thanks for the alligator clips idea - it worked a treat.

 

I have been working on the shrouds for the foremast.  Serving the first shroud makes the resulting 'rope' quite stiff and a little difficult to work with. The result however has been quite good, though the process has been a little frustrating.  Whatever I am doing in fitting the shrouds, there has to be a better way.  If anyone has suggestions I would be grateful.

 

First however, after procrastinating for as long as possible, I finally fitted the top to the foremast.

 

 

Her is the fore topmast dry-fitted

 

 

A bit of adjustment is required but it's not too bad.

 

 

This is my rather inefficient method of attaching the shrouds. First by putting the loop around the mast, measuring as best I could, the distance down to the front deadeye. The position of the deadeye is fixed using fine and very strong spring tweezers.   It is dry-fitted and its position adjusted if necessary so that the rope is taught. The deadeye is then glued in position.

 

 

The procedure is repeated for the second deadeye.

 

 

 

While the result has been quite good, (haven't yet taken any photo) there has to be a better and less time-consuming way.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2015 by RMC

[GuntherMT]

Without seeing what you are doing, or at least some description of the difficulty that you are having, it's hard to say what is going wrong.

 

The served line will certainly be stiffer, but I haven't really had much difficulty in getting them to go where I want - I 'painted' the entire served area with dilute (50/50) white glue to help secure the serving, so that makes it even stiffer, but it's still workable.

 

Edit: Glad the alligator clips worked for you!

Edited August 19, 2015 by GuntherMT

[RMC]

Brian: I have added to my post since your reply I think..  It explains as best I can what I have been up to.

[GuntherMT]

You cheated and added all those pictures and stuff after my post, indeed.

 

Looks like your system should work fine.  Seems like one of the more tedious/picky parts about the ships and rigging is getting the shrouds even, so you need to use some form of jig like you are using to do it, and I don't know of any way to do it except individually.

 

Take a look at the last couple pages of my log and you'll see how I did it with a little jig that held all 4 dead-eyes in place, and allowed me to pull the shrouds to them.  I could put both sides of a shroud pair on, and do whatever adjusting I needed before securing them to the dead-eyes.

[RMC]

I'm glad someone does as they're told.  It doesn't seem to work too well around here though.

 

PS. I've decided to do the collar for the main preventer stay before finishing the shrouds.  I will then step the foremast as you suggested.

[RMC]

Brian: I've had a look at your log.  You are doing a lovely job.

 

Your solution to the shroud problem is clever.  I will give it a go, though in my case there are 9 deadeyes on each side of the fore and main masts which may make it a little more difficult.

[GuntherMT]

Brian: I've had a look at your log.  You are doing a lovely job.

 

Your solution to the shroud problem is clever.  I will give it a go, though in my case there are 9 deadeyes on each side of the fore and main masts which may make it a little more difficult.

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, the number of deadeyes in your case will make it more difficult, but you could set up a jig to do a group at a time, depending on what's in the way and how the spacing is would determine what might work best for you.

 

I stole the idea from another build log on here, it's what I really like about this place, I learn so much by looking at what other people do, so my building level is accelerating so much faster than if I was doing this in a vacuum that it's completely crazy.  I doubt that my AVS would even be recognizable compared to what it is if it wasn't for MSW and what I've learned here.

Edited August 19, 2015 by GuntherMT

[RMC]

Brian: Yes, I had thought of trying your method a batch at a time. I'll see how it all works out.  At this stage I will work on the collar for the main preventer stay.  I'm a bit sick of shrouds at the moment.  I made a silly error with one of the deadeyes (eyes the wrong way around) that I picked up this morning (now fixed), which has encouraged me to do something else for a day or so.

Edited August 20, 2015 by RMC

[RMC]

The collar for the main preventer stay has come out acceptably.  It's probably a little too long, but I'm certainly not going to redo it.

 

I find the dark brown Syren thread takes a bit of getting used to. Earlier in this log I mentioned how some black thread I had left hanging for a couple of years had turned brown - a colour very similar to the Syren thread.

 

 

 

I will now try the collar for the main stay and work on the shrouds for the fore mast. I will be going away for 4 or 5 weeks at the end of next week, so all of this will probably be as much (more?) as I can finish for some time.

Edited August 24, 2015 by RMC

[RMC]

I have been working concurrently on the shrouds for the foremast, and the collar for the mainstay.

 

The shrouds are not going especially well and I am looking to do pretty well anything else to avoid them. With a bit of luck however the foremast shrouds at least will soon be finished and I can finally step that mast.

 

Brian's suggestion concerning the use of alligator clips for Alexey's serving machine works really well, though they are a bit cumbersome.  The following photos show how I have used them though of course there may be better ways.

 

 

 

Here I am serving one of the shrouds. At both ends a needle and thread has been passed though the shroud to fix the serving thread to the shroud.  The Syren thread is quite stiff so that a little force must be used which is a bit hair-raising. Incidentally this stiffness makes threading the served thread through the stem through all the headrails quite difficult.  With serving, the thread I have used is about 1.6mm.  I don't think it would be possible to serve 2mm thread and get it to go where it needs to.

 

 

Here is the collar for the mainstay. This follows Petersson/aew.  I have just noticed it needs a little touching up, and I've missed cutting off a couple of pieces of thread properly.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2015 by RMC

[RMC]

The foremast is finally stepped and has come out quite well.

 

 

 

Adding the shrouds was time consuming and fiddly. I am reasonably happy with the way it has gone so far, but there are seemingly dozens more to do.   Here is some work-in-progress.

 

This is the first rough - before the shrouds have been finished off

 

Some adjustments were made to the rough and the shrouds finished. I am hoping that once the lanyards are fitted and adjusted, that the heights of the deadeyes will be more consistent, though they are not too bad now.

 

 

This is how it all looks now.

 

 

 

I'm not sure of the next step.  I'm inclined to fit the lanyards to the fore shouds, but Im not really sure if this is a good idea just now. (Advice is welcome.) Alternatively the main mast can be fitted and stepped.

 

It turns out I do have some time before I invade the northern hemisphere. Those of you there will be relieved to know you have another week.....

 

 

Edited September 2, 2015 by RMC

[Beef Wellington]

Looking great Bob - I'd agree with Arthur, you can lace up the deadeyes anytime, and if you leave a bit of length on them, you can come back and tweak or fix any tension at any time - that way you can re-use your spacers on the other masts.  Being lazy, I only made a couple of spacers which also helped with consistency of spacing.

 

In addition to the #3&4 stb shrouds that Arthur mentions, believe the shrouds consistently go anti-clockwise round the deadeye, which means that the free end is on the aft face on the port shrouds, and the front face of the stb shrouds.

[RMC]

Whoops.  I didn't notice  a couple of the shrouds were the wrong way around. I hope I would have corrected it when putting on the lanyards. More important, I didn't know all the shrouds are supposed to go anticlockwise around the deadeyes. I suppose it must be in Petersson somewhere.  Thanks to both of you.

 

Two winters? The winter here was more than enough.  It's been (on and off) cold, windy and wet. I have just been down the coast to see if our house there is still intact.  We had 320mm (about 14inches) of rain in 12 hours a couple of weeks ago. The animals were walking past two by two.

 

We are off to Vancouver on Thursday, then Ontario, NYC and the national parks of Utah - imposing on friends. (I think of it as revenge).  I just hope that it's warmer there than it has been here.

Edited September 7, 2015 by RMC

[RMC]

I have messaged Jason about the free end of the shrouds. I am getting mixed messages from different sources regarding the direction to the free end, though this may simply be a result of my confusion.

 

Below are some photos of p2 of Petersson and a snap of plan 8.  Petersson seems to show the free end of the shrouds towards the stem on both sides.  The plan shows the free end towards aft on the starboard side, while Jason suggests this is so on the port side.

 

Aaagh. I just noticed I cut off the top of the first and third pictures.

 

The inboard view (port) shows the free end of the shroud towards the stem (ie, the right side), and the outboard view (port) again towards the stem (ie, the left side).

 

 

This shows the starboard side with the free end towards the stem.

 

 

 

This is the plan.

 

 

At my age I'm confused enough.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2015 by RMC

[Beef Wellington]

Hi Bob,  seem to remember there being some discussion on this in one of the logs a while ago and just cannot remember which.  I had looked for some pictures a while back of Victory's shrouds, and for some inexplicable reason it seems that the starboard side is by far the most photographed.  Best picture(s) I could come up with was the following (sorry so small) which does show the free end on the aft side, however it also shows them quite twisted, and messier than appears on plans and Petersson!  I'm sure a bit more digging could come up with a better pictures...

 

I don't want to be passing on incorrect information, so if I'm wrong hopefully someone will speak up.  It would mean I'd need to redo my Snake shrouds ​.

 

Port side...

 

​​

 

Starboard side...

​

Edited September 8, 2015 by Beef Wellington

[RMC]

Thanks for the reply Jason.

 

I have looked  exhaustively on the net and am not really any the wiser.  Most photos (there are hundreds) show the free end towards the stem, though there are a some exceptions.  I came across a post here from:   

 

popeye2sea 

 

which says:

 

for right hand laid rope the shroud should go around the deadeye anticlockwise; for LH  laid rope it should go around clockwise.

 

This doesn't really enlighten me much. I would have sent him a PM asking for a clarification and perhaps a source for this.  However as I will be going away for about 5 weeks the day after tomorrow I will leave it for now.  Another source would be Chris Watton, the designer of the Vanguard kit who is the font of all wisdom.  A PM to him would be worthwhile.

 

It would be nice to get this right, not that I'm obsessive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RMC]

I'll take your advice.

[Jdieck]

Bob

Take a look at the picture Arthur posted in page 18 of your thread (this one); regarding Lee's descripton of turning in of the shrouds using cable laid (left twist) or shroud laid (right twist) rope.

According to Lee, Using right twisted rope the shrouds are turned in counterclockwise and using left twist rope they are turned in clockwise.

In other words if right twisted rope is used to turn in the shrouds of both port and starboard, then in one side, the free end of the rope will show toward the stem and in the oposite side will show the free end of the rope toward the stern.

 

This will confirm what jason has posted above.

 

Enjoy your trip!

 

Jose

Edited September 11, 2015 by Jdieck

[Jdieck]

Jose: I've slept since then!

At least I can now justify how I've made mine off.

Good to know you are now getting your beauty sleep while Bob is vacationing.

Now you guys make me want a vacation.

 

Regards

Jose

[RMC]

Thanks Jose now I will sleep well. The rain has even stopped here in Vancouver so I'm on a roll.

[Jdieck]

Enjoy!

[RMC]

I have just had twenty-odd hours on an aeroplane to consider the shroud problem. The thread on the shrouds appears to be left twisted* which evidently means the shrouds go clockwise around the deadeye.  This will result in the free end facing the stern on the starboard side (consistent with the plan) and will face forward on the port side.

 

I hope I now have this right, though confirmation would be welcome.

 

* By left twisted, I presume the thread is twisted clockwise.

[RMC]

Yes Arthur, your first photo shows the way my  thread is laid. So I am only 180 degrees out. I should have spent more time drinking and less time thinking ...

 

Perhaps I need another holiday.

 

I will take photos showing how it all looks from both port and starboard (though the lay of the thread may not show up well in a photo), but I am having some camera/ computer problems at the moment. It would be a pity to stuff it up up now.