HMS Victory by robipod - Caldercraft - 1805 version - first build

[robipod]

Today decided I better finish the closed gun ports near the bow. I wonder why Jotika doesn't cut them out of the plywood? Maybe the curve at the bow puts too much stress on the wood and it splits with the ports cut out. Oh well. In the instructions it says ".... They are then scored with a sharp craft knife, simply to represent the gunports in a closed position..." There is no way I can score the hull and make it look reasonably rectangular etc. and be somewhat decent looking. I've been thinking about them for a bit and decided to do this. I have a local supply of .05mm walnut and maple veneer. I took the outline of a gunport and then drew it on the .05mm veneer. Cut the veneer out... oh, before I cut the veneer used some CA glue on the back to bond it a bit. Measured the mid-point... cut them out and this is the result. I don't think there will be much problem with the hinges. (I hope not anyway). That's how I'm solving the closed gun ports and making it "look a bit cleaner". Am doing the same for the lower gun deck closed port. The vertical split does not show too well in the photo but when I look at it, it's there. 

 

[robipod]

Finished the faikies...   

Now I must admit that for the lower gun deck I couldn't figure out how to use the 0.05mm veneer. So looked more and more at the pictures of the real Victory and found this: 

Took my gun port pattern and drew on the hull. Took a flat xacto blade and hammer - I can't believe I used the hammer - and followed the outline with the blade. Didn't turn out too bad. Am pleased though that I did the middle gun deck gun port with the 0.05mm veneer.

 

Edited May 26, 2013 by robipod

[robipod]

"The Victory's copper is laid in two belts, the upper belt having twelve strakes and over lapping the lower belt" is from Longridge in his The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships. Most models I see here do not appear to have the twelve strakes at the top. most are one or two. If you have the book, the pull out drawing on page 36 shows this pattern. Am tempted to measure the distance from the waterline to keel and divide by the width of the Jotika supplied tiles to see if I should be starting the top twelve rows and work down while working from the keel at the stern up. It would appear that the twelve rows from the waterline down should be completed before the keel up is done. (does this make any sense?)

Have you overlapped the tiles?  In his book, Longridge states "On naval ships the upper edge of a lower strake overlapped the lower edge of the strake above it." I am not sure that I've seen the tiles overlapped. Is it an optical illusion or has everyone overlapped the tiles in the manner suggested by Longridge? 

[Fortres]

Rob, I want to specify...
The photo over brought by you shows the moment of renewal of foreship...
Cylinder that we see - not exactly bowsprit, and "working" his temporal imitation.
In this place a bowsprit passes between knighthead.Interval under a bowsprit between knighthead mortgage details from a tree.

 

 

What this construction did not break a secret during other works, of preceding to setting of bowsprit, instead of bowsprit put a cylinder equal to the bowsprit on a diameter.
And at the end of works set the real bowsprit.

 

[Fortres]

Rob, it is a fragment of draft of model from Mamoli 1 : 90...

Here we see even 13 stripes from above...

A draft can be found in a network ...or I can to you to deport him.

 

[chris watton]

Today decided I better finish the closed gun ports near the bow. I wonder why Jotika doesn't cut them out of the plywood? Maybe the curve at the bow puts too much stress on the wood and it splits with the ports cut out. Oh well. In the instructions it says ".... They are then scored with a sharp craft knife, simply to represent the gunports in a closed position..." There is no way I can score the hull and make it look reasonably rectangular etc. and be somewhat decent looking. I've been thinking about them for a bit and decided to do this. I have a local supply of .05mm walnut and maple veneer. I took the outline of a gunport and then drew it on the .05mm veneer. Cut the veneer out... oh, before I cut the veneer used some CA glue on the back to bond it a bit. Measured the mid-point... cut them out and this is the result. I don't think there will be much problem with the hinges. (I hope not anyway). That's how I'm solving the closed gun ports and making it "look a bit cleaner". Am doing the same for the lower gun deck closed port. The vertical split does not show too well in the photo but when I look at it, it's there. 

 

Closed Gun Portbb.jpg

You could use very thin plasticard (as it's painted black anyway). I find that this material (and the strip) invaluable in a lot of instances. [ shaped strip is very good for the lower bow rails, as well and the one that curves and extends up to the catheads. I always think - why fight with inappropriate materials when much better solutions are available.

Edited May 27, 2013 by chris watton

[gil middleton]

Hi Rob,  After reposting my build log (with sincere thanks to you for recovering it) I got way behind in following your log. What fun to review it. I love your ideas on lighting (perhaps my next build), holystoning the decks and coppering.  Your "Victory" will be more historically accurate than mine.  I presented a History of the Victory along with construction of the model to our offshore sailing group, and was constantly reminded of the many changes brought about by each new captain, sailing master or bos'ns mate. Hence I've taken artistic license in parts of the build. I think we've all seen the copy of the painting by Swaine (1780) of the same ship, HMS Victory with stern balconies for the Captain and Admiral and a lateen sail on the mizzen. All these changed in a refit before Trafalgar.  Cheers, Gil

[robipod]

Chris

Thank you for the comment. I know exactly what you are suggesting. Must admit when I first saw your idea I was thinking, .." wonder how the plastic would look on the model?"  And it came to mind that maybe I wouldn't use it because it was 'not wood'. Well, then did I laugh at myself. Here is a person who has put fake photo interiors, fake plastic lights etc etc. into the model already... Yes, I will get some because it will be very useful. Have a friend who has a car detailing shop so can get various thicknesses. Great idea. Am very pleased that you would even read my post here as I consider you one of the best in the world. Maybe I'll have to finish this one and then go purchase the Amati Victory, when it arrives. Maybe Vanguard would be fun to build. This one will have been practice... 

[robipod]

Konstantin

Thanks for updating about the bowsprit. I see what you are describing. Hope you got those three items that I sent to you! Thanks for being along here.

[robipod]

Gil

Thanks for the comments. Am struggling with the copper plate layout. Will go into detail in the next post. I read you are off and away to sail the west coast up to Alaska. Have a safe and most awesome journey. I took the BC ferry from Prince Rupert to Port Hardy one summer. It was fascinating just being on the inside passage. Just stay clear of those ferries... lol... Victory looks much different with the open stern. Guess the Admiral and Captain didn't go on their balconies very much... no barbecue's on the balcony for naval officers... We are all taking license with the ship just like her builders over these two hundred plus years... heck... who can dispute what the actual ship was in 1805. they should have had digital cameras... hey, maybe The Doc and Marty McFly should use the DeLorean and go back to the battle.... guess they'd have to hover.... that would solve it!

[Kevin]

robipod,

lol - thank you for reminding me that i have not done mine (bow gun ports that is)

Edited May 28, 2013 by Kevin

[chris watton]

Chris

Thank you for the comment. I know exactly what you are suggesting. Must admit when I first saw your idea I was thinking, .." wonder how the plastic would look on the model?"  And it came to mind that maybe I wouldn't use it because it was 'not wood'. Well, then did I laugh at myself. Here is a person who has put fake photo interiors, fake plastic lights etc etc. into the model already... Yes, I will get some because it will be very useful. Have a friend who has a car detailing shop so can get various thicknesses. Great idea. Am very pleased that you would even read my post here as I consider you one of the best in the world. Maybe I'll have to finish this one and then go purchase the Amati Victory, when it arrives. Maybe Vanguard would be fun to build. This one will have been practice... 

Thank you, and you are very welcome.

 

If I had my way, I would use the profiled plastic ship in with the kits, as it is by far the best and easiest to use/manipulate, as well as paint. But some think that seeing nice shiny strips makes the kit worth more. I always used to throw it out when making kits. As far as I am concerned, it is the overall finish of the completed model, not what materials were used - more so with a model that is predominantly painted. (was the real thing planked with lime and walnut anyway, and were the rails made of brass/white metal)? It is always the end result that matters.

 

For the poop bulkhead colour, (and other 'dark wood' colours on the decks) I used Vallejo leather brown (147), followed by Vallejo Woodgrain (Transp - 182). After studying the photographs of the real thing, this combination seems to get pretty close, scale-wise. I find that just using wood stain makes the grain show too much, even on good plywood, which then looks way over scale. The poop window frames were painted in the same way and colour.

 

Chris

Edited May 28, 2013 by chris watton

[Kevin]

there has to be a fine balance between plastic as described above for panelling and some fine detailing, which might be better than white metal, then you go to the other extreme - I wont say Billings - where there is to much and poorly made, - ooops did i say the B word - if so - sorry

Edited May 28, 2013 by Kevin

[robipod]

Still struggling with the concept of the copper tiles. Did some math last night. 

The Jotika plates are 17mm long by 7mm wide. Measured the distance at mid-ship of the plating surface. About 172mm.

If I do not overlay the tiles, that would be approx. 24 rows.

If I overlay the tiles by 1/3 (2.3mm) it would represent approx. 37 rows.

If I overlay the tiles by 50% (suggested in the Jotika manual) it would represent about 49 rows. 

(these are close figures - not exact - but close enough)

 

Now here are the figures that throw me.  After measuring the length of the hull and taking a worst case scenario with the number of tiles per row I ended up with approx 850mm laying the measuring tape on the waterline (one side). That would be about 50 plates. If one says 50 is the max but there will be less at the keel, approx 780mm - that would be about 46 plates. Here is where I get concerned - say on average 47 plates per row that translates to 1739 plates per side. For both sides - 3478... but I have 2600 tiles plus an extra 200 that I ordered at the same time as the kit. 

 

Looking at McGowan's HMS Victory, Her Construction, Career and Restoration on page 140-141 is the expansion plan of copper sheathing. 

There are 37 rows: 12 rows on the top from the waterline (can't remember proper term) and an additional 25 rows from keel up to the 12 from the waterline. 

Here is where I get confused. (Wish it was just a mountain of snow... could figure it out... LOL...)

Virtually all the photos I have seen the tiles are 1. not overlapped and 2. as questioned before do not seem to have the 12 row apron from the waterline.

Question: What does one do? Overlap - and if so, do I have enough tiles? Any comments would be appreciated.

Edited May 29, 2013 by robipod

[chris watton]

there has to be a fine balance between plastic as described above for panelling and some fine detailing, which might be better than white metal, then you go to the other extreme - I wont say Billings - where there is to much and poorly made, - ooops did i say the B word - if so - sorry

I use it mainly for bow rails and on occasion, the curved stern and side gallery rails, and upper hull rails too.

 

I remember building a Billings Bounty - the ships boat was just a block of wood you had to carve out yourself! lol

[robipod]

Gil

Did you ever see this one of Victory. Pocock Painting - they could have a decent bbq on the balcony...

[WackoWolf]

Now that is a beautiful painting. Anyone know if one could buy a copy of this painting and maybe a link to where I could get it. I love this picture. If it wasn't for the wife, it would be my desktop background.

[robipod]

Joe

This is a painting in the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, England. One used to be able to order photographs from them of various paintings they had in their collection.

Take a look at the website. I am sure you can still order. 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/

[WackoWolf]

Thank you for getting back to me, will be checking that out.

[Kevin]

Image Details Title: HMS 'Victory', 'Captain', 'Agamemnon', 'Vanguard' & 'Elephant' Artist: Nicholas Pocock Product code: PU5986 Copyright: © National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London

 

[robipod]

Right on Kevin! thanks....

[robipod]

Started the copper plates. Figured I would start at the keel and go up. Box a box of latex gloves to handle the tiles. Works really well. And I opened all the tile packages and put them in one open container so they will oxidize at the same rate.  The way the model is right now, placing tiles up  will be actually be going down. Will make five rows from the waterline down to correspond to the upper belt. Am thinking I will change the model up and take off the stand when I do the upper belts.  Will see. Not so sure about this overlapping on the next row. If I don't speed up, it will be Christmas before I get all the tiles done. I edited and sped up the video on this tile... let's see the actual was [i don't want to say] just way too long... LOL.. oh well, timing will improve I hope but if it doesn't, it doesn't. If anyone has suggestions they are welcome. 

 

 

[dafi]

I think you are doing all right :-)

 

The overlap is difficult as the material is far to thick in scale. Some modelers use hand made plates with the rivets just on two sides in L-shape and not on all four sides, thus implementing the overlap.

If you look at historic coppering, the overlap is almost not visible - as are the nails :-)

 

 

Here a picture that wefalk shot at the HMS Garnet and showed here some time ago:

http://www.wefalck.eu/mm/maritime/chatham/100220-72.jpg

 

Cheers, Daniel

Edited May 31, 2013 by dafi

[Fortres]

I pay attention to the worthiest public that beautiful feed gallery with balconies on HMS Victory  cleaned February 1800 - April 1803 at "large repair".
In Trafalgar a ship entered with a stern look like that today.
In addition, during a battle a ship looked not so as we are told today.
All internal partitions were cleaned, small cannons stood on quarterdeck(at least).
Causes a question and presence of side entrances...in any event peaks above them and doorways.Probably entrances were reconditioned in gun ports.

Finally, most exactly HMS Victory  shows in Trafalgar  of Mallord William Turner(1775‑1851), that sketched on shipboard in December, 1805, when a ship went to Portsmouth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robipod]

Konstantin

The images by Turner are fascinating and remind me that 'in battle' the decks would be cleared to be ready for firing the cannons. All the screen bulkheads would be lifted and secured to the ceiling of the upper deck. When I look at my Victory, I have created somewhat of a battle ready state particularly for the upper gun deck. I have the deck completely open so it can be viewed from the stern to the bow. I have pretty much decided from these images you showed to not mount piece 389 to the upper gun deck (the upper deck screen bulkhead).

I am constantly impressed by your knowledge of the ship. Thank you for making me think of this.

[WackoWolf]

Beautiful pictures. Thanks

[robipod]

As noted earlier, I started the tiles. Read about it too way much, but I remember one comment where someone suggested 'just start, take it slow, and it will work out'. Well, that's exactly what seems to have happen. I found today that I would wonder into the shipyard and put on three or four tiles, stop, go do something else then come back. Plugged away off and on today as it has been one of those really wet spring days. Rain all day basically. I wonder if it snowed in the mountains?

Back to tiles. Yes, I went really slow, used the magnifying glass all the time, kept the laytex gloves on, and used the blade and tweezers. The results are not bad.

There has been some discussion about painting the hull with a primer, versus leaving it the unfinished walnut. I find it very useful with the hull the light grey. I get a great contrast between the tile and the hull. It is very clean to work on. I did sand the primer coat and was checking for any really weird spots. Will see if I can do this side in a week. (I think this is an ambitious goal - lol)

Edited June 3, 2013 by robipod

[Kevin]

fantastic start - well done

[dafi]

Hello Robin and Fortres,

 

thank you for the pictures above :-)

 

There are some glitches in Turners drawing of December 05. I do not know if these things are really guns, there is much discussion about it. Also the position of three of them on the poop rails is quite uncommon.

 

Also are to be seen woolings on the mizzen - repairs from Gibraltar still as the great repair was done with iron loops?

 

Some guessing was done, if he did the drawing on board - it seems to have snow and therefor was cold - or if he finished or even did completely by memory afterwards in the studio.

 

Turner was in first place an artist, and reality had to step back behind the artistic expression. See the first painting of the ship of the line, how exaggerated the heights are - looks like a 12 story building, people standing in the gunports ...

 

Also the last painting was quite controversial if I remember well - it was a contract work by the marine and he melted several stages of the combat into one picture - not to the delight of his clients ...

 

All the best, Daniel

Edited June 3, 2013 by dafi

[Kevin]

artistic licence is a odd subject, we all do it, but if the great painters did/ then it hasn;t done us any favours has it?, as we are still debating something that was done so many years ago, or looking for detail which might not have been there at the time

 

as we see so many people nowadays wearing glasses, i always wondered if thats how they saw things, or used used imagination to fill in the blurred bits