Albatros Baltimore Clipper Scale Question

[CharlieZardoz]

Greetings fellow ship enthusiasts! I've been doing research regarding some of the kits out there and was looking for some feedback regarding size variations of Baltimore Clippers.  Specifically with regard to the Albatros I've noticed 3 kits available Mantua, Constructo and Occre which lists scale at 1:40, 1:55 and 1:100 respectively.  That said the model lengths are reportedly 27" 20" and 22.5" respectively which doesn't make much sense.  I am aware that the Occre kit leaves something to be desired and doesn't look much like the other two but the scales must be off between the Mantua and Constructo kits as well?  I've been looking at the other Baltimore Clipper (or similar looking) kits available Lynx, Pride of Baltimore and Roger B. Taney whose scales are around 60-64 and sizes range from 27-34" the Harvey which is 36" at a 1:50 scale and also the Dapper Tom via Model Shipways which is 24ish" at 1:76 scale.  For the most part looking at the models they all seem somewhat similar in design gunports, hull shapes etc, so unless the Albatros was a significantly smaller than average clipper ship I'm wondering if there is some sort of logical explanation.

 

Thanks all

Edited October 14, 2014 by CharlieZardoz

[grsjax]

Howard Chappell actually covers the original design that all these models except the Roger B. Taney are based on in his book "The Baltimore Clipper".  It is shown on page 115 as Marestier No. 6.  The schooner is listed as having a length on deck of 92' 9" and a beam of 24'.  All of the kits based on these lines are inaccurate to various degrees and none of them accurately represent the rig and deck layout.

 

There is an article in a back issue of NRG (Volume 29 Number 2 June 1983 by Erik Ronnberg, jr and some follow up comments in the next issue, Sept. 83) that covers this ship, mentions several of the kits made from its lines and has pictures of a model made by Erik Ronnberg, Sr. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by grsjax

[CharlieZardoz]

That's fascinating! I do love Mr Chappell's books so will have to grab that one as well.  I suppose this opens up another quandary regarding which kits out there have actual historical basis and which are made up.  A few Mamoli kits are -uh implied ships like the Blue Shadow and possibly the Newport.  I know at least the Lynx and POB II have real life replica's (and yeah Taney is technically a cutter) but the rest I just haven't been able to find any historical info on.  I suppose taking the Mantua Albatros and Lynx kits and lining them up to see if the fittings are a truly different size/scale would be a start  

[mtaylor]

Not so sure about checking the fittings for a match.  Kit makers are notorious for putting stuff in the box that's either "close" or "no way close"  A good example is ship's wheels.   If it's round and with pointy things on it, they'll toss it in the box as size is umimportant.

[CharlieZardoz]

Lol! Noted.

[Salty Sea Dog]

Hi Charlie,

 

Thought I should shift the conversation to your thread here from Basic's Lynx build log since it was kind of getting hijacked. Your and juhu's conversation got me to researching more about the Roger B. Taney and Baltimore Clippers. I admit to being a bit confused on the whole cutter vs clipper thing. I have the Dikar RBT kit and it describes it as a Baltimore Clipper on the box. I also have an old 1986 Model Expo catalog from when they sold the kit, and it sort of says the same thing.Is the RBT consideredd a Clipper?

 

Here's the description from the ME catalog:

 

Here's the verbage on the side of the Dikar box. The translation is goofy and I think they meant "pirating" instead of "filibustering"!

 

This is the intro from the Dikar instruction booklet. I think this was translated a bit better:

 

This seems to be a decent kit and if weight means anything, it's heavy!

 

EDIT: Click photos for easier reading.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Salty Sea Dog

[CharlieZardoz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris-Taney-class cutter

 

Well to my knowledge the actual "baltimore clipper" as being ships built of the line and style were commonly built in Baltimore around the time of the war of 1812 for coastal defense.  After the war ended the ships ceased to be built as far as Baltimore is concerned however the revenue cutters which were built in New York also for coastal defense took their lines from the baltimore clippers making sort of the progeny of the type. A lot of other designs of later ships took influence from the baltimore clippers as well. While I'm not fully versed on the history my guess is that up until the war of 1812 many American ships were built by local sources rather than federal.  For example the Constitution/Constellation class frigates were a design ordered by the federal government however smaller frigates like New York, Essex and General Greene were order by the states and cities by local contractors.  After the war of 1812 the US navy became strong enough that such efforts at the local level were no longer needed and inventory became regulated.  Again I could be wrong about this but I would suggest you read Howard Chapelle's The Baltimore Clipper and The American Sailing Navy which goes into all of this in much detail.

 

And yes looks like a nice model kit when I get the skillset required I will definitely built her or possibly kitbash using plans to a 1/64ish scale.  God I miss those old Model expo catalogues from 1984-1986.  I saw them on ebay in September and missed a chance at buying them grrrr! They were full of many errors too especially with kit scaling lol.

Edited December 21, 2014 by CharlieZardoz

[juhu]

I guess, this topic is already old, yet I have found it only today, so just my two cents:

let's not be too strict about the naming conventions: "Baltimore clipper" is more nowadays term, they did not call them so in 1812. Now you can find them named as Baltimore clippers or Baltimore schooners, generally speaking of very fast and sharp built ships - originally built in Baltimore shipyards. But as said, many other vessels built on Eastern coast inherits their lines, among them also so called revenue cutters. Here just beware, the term "cutter" is more related to the ship's duties (comes probably from English, where they have used famous cutters - one masted vessels to protect Isles against smugglers and piracy). Strictly speaking, cutter is one masted vessel, american "revenue cutters" like for example Doughty's designt are also topsail schooners, just like Baltimore clippers. You will find their description also in Chapelle's book "Baltimore clipper - orifgin and development" . So it is all the same family

Regarding the scale question: not sure about Albatros, but I have finally got original full size plans of Lynx from Greenwich Maritime museum. The kit of Lynx, when compared to them is some 60x smaller in length and some 57x smaller in breight. Not speaking of other dimmensions. That means, Panart's kit is not 100% proportionally correct and for sure it is not in (anyway quite unusual) modelled in a given 1:62 scale