HMC Sherbourne 1763 by Gregor – FINISHED - Caldercraft – Scale 1:64 - first build

[aliluke]

Hi Gregor

Never did find your log before your recent PM. Fantastic work in all respects - the cannons really stand out as brilliant little models in their own right. I can't answer your questions. But ...I do wonder how a boat centred under a boom can be launched? I wondered this about Kestor's (Stockholm Tar) build as well. Wouldn't the boat be mounted away from, to the side of the boom? Kestor's Sherbourne - one of the finest examples that there is - always bugged me with this question.

 

Any way - your work is superb and I really like these ships. My boat question is as much to spark a conversation as it is to acknowledge what a great job you are doing!

[Stockholm tar]

Hi Gregor,

 

Nice job on those guns, with the surprise addition of the carronades. The whole model looks magnificent – although I'm not sure quite what the mate would make of the stowed oars!

 

Re. the sails, as you say, I think the staysail (suitably folded) would most likely be stowed atop the bowsprit – that's how I intend to do mine, anyway. I suspect the traveller would have been run back inboard along the bowsprit, perhaps not all the way, and the jib itself furled into a sausage shape aft from the stay, along the bowsprit. Again that's how I intend to do mine when I get to it.

 

As I approach the question of the head stays, I have been thinking a bit about this myself, and also whether to attach the sheets, and where they belay to. Methinks, again, there are few belaying points! There is also the question of the staysail sheet horse – and I don't mean the four legged variety! Goodwin mentions a horse of iron, across the foredeck, but it is not shown on the plans for the Alert (or at least I can't see one) so I'll have to make a guess as to where it is placed. I think that will have to be fitted before the forestay.

 

Alasdair,

 

Goodwin mentions in the AOTS Alert book that the boat was carried on deck, between the topsail bitts and the pumps. (It may have been smaller than mine though, as mine runs past the latter point!) Again he says that it was lifted off the chocks with tackles from the boom (admittedly, I haven't left much room) and manouvered over the side. The cutter had quite a large crew, so I don't think that would have been much of a problem. I would imagine too that, operationally, the boat would have been towed astern for much of the time.

 

Btw, thanks for the compliment.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Stockholm tar

[Stockholm tar]

Just been brousing through the AOTS Alert book and noticed that, in the photos of the Hawke cutter, her boat is on deck to starboard, rather than being centrally placed. I would have thought though, this would have made it impossible for the guns on that side to be used – perhaps another reason for the boat to be normally towed. From Peter Goodwin's description on the Alert, it sounds like the boat was centrally placed. I imagine the position varied between cutters.

[Gregor]

Thank you all.

Alistair, I have to agree with Kester in that a boat on the starboard side does only make sense if you tow it astern before going into action (I remember reading about such preparations in Patrick O’Brian’s books).

N. Robert Cole thinks that all cutters had to tow their boats (difficult to get them aboard and stow them without making working the boat impossible). But in the same paragraph he writes that the admiralty requested all vessels to hoist their boats in to reduce losses. So I guess cutters lost their boats regularly in heavy weather or had to stow them on deck to prevent that, even if this was difficult and cumbersome to do.

As I have not made fast the little boat (14’, in relation to the longer Alert’s 18 footer) to the deck, I will probably show it towed in the end (there is a beautiful example in MSW’s gallery). The most important woman in my life thinks my Sherbourne’s deck too crowded anyway…

It will be more crowded at the bow with the furled sails. I’m looking forward to your progress there, Kester. The Alert book shows that the jib is made fast with hooks, so it would have been easy to haul the traveller in and unhook it, leaving only the tackle hooked there and stow the sail elsewhere. The question remains open…

A horse of iron, no legs (and not a underpowered car)? Thankfully Cole's model shows an example, which I copied quickly (picture taken from Cole's paper).

 

 

 

On my Sherbourne, it would look like this, making the working of the guns beside it almost impossible.

 

 

I could move back the knight heads a few millimetres and shorten the horse (what a terrible thought), but would it still work like that?

 

 

I foresee pinrail crisis (part two) anyway in the nearer future. Cole’s belaying points bring Dirk’s windlass arrangement to mind, lucky him.

I think they invented engines to get rid of all these problems (but lost the beauty of it on the way).

Gregor

Edited April 14, 2014 by Gregor

[riverboat]

Hi Gregor, just now went thru your log, What an excellent!! build this is.... love all the embellishments you've made , she's a great looking

cutter. Nice job!!...... In regards to the book, I  ordered it a couple days ago ,I'm sure it will be a great help. Thanks

Frank

[Stockholm tar]

Gregor,

 

Thanks for the photos showing versions of the staysail horse. Food for thought there, as its placing is somewhat critical, although I think I'm inclined to go with option three – the somewhat shortened version. To my mind this would both keep it out of the way of operation of the forward guns, and allow movement of the sail from one tack to the other. I'm not sure that shortening the horse would actually have that much effect on the sail setting, as this can be probably be adjusted by the sheet tackle. (Occasionally a horse is fitted for the main sail which is, of course, nowhere near the length needed for the practical operation of that sail.) 

 

Still debating whether to fit the headsail sheets, but I think I might. For the staysail, I was thinking of a cleat on the side of the upper block, to take the fall. Not quite sure if this would work, but I can't see where else it would belay. Have to think more about that. I will probably include both staysail and jib too, just to make it more interesting.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Stockholm tar

[egkb]

Hey there Gregor, re the Horse, I'm inclined to Kesters way of thinking in that they would not need to be excessively wide (I've sailed on boats with them and they didn't go the full width of the boat, perhaps 2/3rds of the width or less ) and the Anchor Cable most likely didn't go under them as in the photo, might look neat but I could see that causing no end of problems somehow

 

All The Best

 

Eamonn

 

Your Sherbourne looks the Absolute Business too by the way !

[Gregor]

That’s a relief, Eammon – the quick model of the horse I made was way out of scale, too. Smaller wooden parts and a wire of not more than 0.5mm will make it look better. And that is really good and useful advice from the real world; anchor cables under the wire would probably result in broken shinbones, it would have been more than 30 cm over deck. I hope Kester can use this, too.

You both seem to know how to sail; I’m still struggling with the basic theory. Reading and looking at diagrams is quite fun, but has its limits. Therefore I have begun to work on masts and spars.

 

 

So far I have made the topgallant mast (and it’s fid, and traveller no. 3) – its symbolic, it’s far from deck and lacks a solid foundation. But these pieces will help me to understand the connection between them.

This forum is really a great place; your help is much appreciated.

Cheers,

Gregor

Edited April 15, 2014 by Gregor

[aliluke]

Hi Gregor

I like the idea of a towed boat as part of the display but concede that Kester's (now spelled correctly!) explanation makes sense too.

 

Some other questions...Gun port lids on an open deck - the AOTS of Alert doesn't show this and I haven't seen a Sherbourne with such. Is this to prevent excessive ingress of sea water while underway based on a lowish freeboard? Did you base the choice to add these on contemporary model? Just intrigued but must say they look good.

 

For your boat you mention "computer tape" to form clinkered planking. What is computer tape? I Googled but still couldn't find such a thing. It sounds like a great material.

 

Thanks

[Gregor]

Hi Alistair, a good question. There are some contemporary drawings and paintings of cutters with gun port lids, and there is the NMM plan we had a discussion about last summer.

Because they are so beautiful to look at, here the list of paintings and drawings in NMM's collection:

·         (1783)

·         (1783)

·         (1785)

·         (1788)

·         (1794)

·         (1794)

·         (1795)

·         (1796)

·         (1818)

·         (1821)

·         (1826)

·         (1830)

In Goodwin's Alert book there are three pictures of an unnamed cutter from around 1785 where I took the lids and their lanyards from. They may have a practical purpose as you mention, but mostly I liked the look of the cutter Fly (1779), which shows them also (and I wanted to make something of my own, not being very good at following orders).

 

I think Sherbourne builders are allowed a little leeway from the Alert - browsing through NMM's collection I'm under the impression this cutters were vessels very individually built. Just looking at different types of rigging during Sherbourne's real-lifetime shows a rich variety to choose from. For me that is one of the good things I discovered building this kit; it can grow into a project of your own, if you so choose. I will certainly modernize my rigging (big words for one that doesn't understand the basics yet, but like the challenge. I'm working on the mast, so I'm committed now).

 

Ooops: With "computer labels" I meant these mostly white sticky paper things you print an address on, take the protective back off and press on an envelope (there must be a better term in English for it). I took this Idea from Blue Ensign; he called it "computer label paper" and used it for his Pickle's boats. Sorry for my linguistic assault.

Gregor

Edited April 16, 2014 by Gregor

[aliluke]

Thanks Gregor

You have tempted me to look back in your log and I realise you have done very good and thorough research. The links are great. I'm eyeing up my next model and a cutter of some form is very high on the list.

 

I look forward to your foray into masts and rigging.

[Stockholm tar]

Hi guys,

 

Re. the sheet horse/anchor cable question, I'm not sure that the cable running over the horse would solve the problem. If that were the case, wouldn't it prevent the lower sheet block from operating freely across the horse?

 

The anchor cable has, I think, more or less to run close to the centreline and the edge of the fore hatch (in my case inboard of the shot garlands) in it's run from the windlass to where it passes below, through the fore end of the main hatch. It surely can't run in any other direction. Therefore, I think the problem might be that the horses shown on the models in Gregor's photos, are actually set too low. If the height of the horse were raised to clear the anchor cable, and then some (perhaps as much as just below knee height) in case the cable jumped about, I think that would solve the problem.

 

Question: Would the height of the horse be measured in hands?

 

Gregor, nice pictures, and they do remind me of the discussion – interesting but not definitive! Interesting too that you're going for the modernised rig, another difference between all the Sherbournes being built here. Btw, nice mast, looks just the job. To answer your surmise, yes, I have done a bit of sailing in my time – sadly, the last time was about twelve years ago now.

 

Alasdair,

 

It would be interesting to see which cutter you go for. Will it be scratch?

Edited April 16, 2014 by Stockholm tar

[tkay11]

I think everyone is confused, but Kester's on the right track as to height. In fact it should have been set to about 3 feet high as the 'horse' was in fact a clothes horse on which the sailors would hang out their clothes to dry after their daily wash and shower in the bathrooms below (which unfortunately were not shown as such in the plans of the time). It was only later that they discovered this was also a convenient way of managing sails.

 

Tony

[Gregor]

Well, the historical debate about gun port lids and sanitary installations is still open…

If Tony is right, could horses be installations only to be mounted when in use, maybe tied between the rails? Could knight heads used for the task of temporarily belaying the staysail sheets? Or could the sheets even be belayed at the rails? I have to admit, I'm confused 

Gregor

[tkay11]

I can pretty much guarantee that Tony is not right.

 

Tony

[Gregor]

Oh, you had me there. I should probably build airplanes.

Gregor

[Stockholm tar]

Tony,

 

Well, only you would know.

 

Gregor,

 

You're confused?

[Gregor]

Totally derailed - I can always blame the language barrier (and should probably resume my office job now)

Gregor

[tkay11]

 

I should probably build airplanes

 

Airplanes? I thought rails were for trains. Which reminds me of a question I forgot to ask. What size wheels did the Sherbourne have? They're not in the plans and they weren't in the kit.

 

Tony

[egkb]

Hi again Guys, I missed out on a quiet a bit of fun there as I was out last night..

 

But just to go back to Kesters post about The Anchor Cable possibly interfering with the use of the Horses, remember you wouldn't be using the horse to sheet sails whilst at anchor..   and in the process of anchoring you would be head to wind, almost by definition 'In Irons',  so the fore sails would effectively be on the centre line if they were still up that is..

The cable would probably have been Flaked up and down the deck prior to dropping the anchor to allow it to 'run' freely without obstruction or kinking, and the higher Horse (how many hands?) would certainly have not interfered with this..

 

Hmmmm interesting discussion !

 

All The Best Folks

 

Eamonn

 

Which Horse is running in Newmarket at 2.30 .. any tips   Sorry Gregor!

[Gregor]

The mental fog is lifting slowly; important puzzle parts are coming together. I’ve spent a lot of time reading logs and books about rigging. Finally I could lay my hands on a copy of Petersson’s “Rigging Period Fore-and-Aft Craft”, which I had seen mentioned before. Beautiful to look at, but more importantly to me it’s like a Rigging Guide for Dummies (that’s meant as a compliment to the author). It answers in many drawings the most important beginner’s question: “What happens if I pull this string here?”

I’m really glad now that I copied (almost blindly) Dirks pin arrangement, it’s almost exactly the one from Petersson’s book, and I was very happy to see that Petersson’s cutter is the same one (from the Science Museum in London) as the one in Goodwin’s Alert book, around 1785. Details of this kind of rigging can also bee seen in John’s beautiful, much younger cutter Stag.

 

 

Although I know from our discussions and from the NMM plan that the historical Sherbourne had almost certainly an older version of rigging (there is a spread yard listed on the plan) like the one of the cutter Hawke from 1777, I wanted to give my Sherbourne a modernized rigging for her Second Life. It’s not historically accurate, but it’s also no anachronism. The earliest picture of this kind of rigging arrangement I could find is again the Fly from 1779.

 

 

Fly’s rigging shows crosstrees and futtock staffs for the topmast shrouds, while the nameless cutter from around 1785 (the hull! the rigging might have been added later as it uses many more metal parts and hooks than older ones) only has one rigging spreader.

I assume there existed a wide variety of rigging methods used in cutters at the same time. Crosstrees without futtock staffs can be seen also in the Trial, around 1790, and then many more in younger vessels.

 

 

Of crosstrees there are also different shapes, mine come from Jotika’s Pickle, and are slightly rounded, which I like. But there are many drawings of straight crosstrees in cutters and other vessels.

So for the first time I can see my Sherbourne as a sailing caft.

 

 

Gaff and Boom are not yet ready; it’s too cold outside at the moment. But I have made mast and yards. I simply borrowed my neighbour’s electric drill from his power tool collection, sat in the sun on the roof before it went AWOL and let the spars slowly rotate through two files and/or sandpaper, always checking with plan and caliper, while I gave my fingers time to cool down.

 

 

The yards are made quite simply: Following George Bandurek’s suggestion I made the battens with paper (two layers of sticky labels); the clamps are leftovers from my gun project.

And finally the kit’s original guns came to glory again: I sanded down one of the original wheels and put it on the topmast.

 

 

Cheers,

Gregor

Edited April 19, 2014 by Gregor

[egkb]

Brilliant stuff Gregor, I think your 'modern rig' should look marvellous !! great use for the wheel by the way..

 

All The Best

 

Eamonn

[Stockholm tar]

Gregor,

 

It will be interesting to see how your Sherbourne progresses, with her modernised rig. She looks good so far.

 

I had originally had the same idea but, when reading about it, I discovered historically that's how the rig was at that period – and decided to retain it, as a feature. I had also originally surmised that her 'captain' might have had her re-rigged at the tail end of her life, but then thought how likely was that, seeing her demise was around 1784 – just about the time the new rig was being adopted?

 

However, I think your rig will look good too – and you would seem to have a few more references for it.

 

Btw, good idea re. the wheel at the mast head – is it a coincidence they are both called trucks?

Edited April 20, 2014 by Stockholm tar

[Hollander-jan]

Hoi Gregor,

 

Thanks for mentioning the book  “Rigging Period Fore-and-Aft Craft” i have downloaded a copy. Had a quick look and this is good stuf later on I wil read it thanks a lot.

By the way your doing verry wel with the ship. 

 

cheers 

 

Jan

[Gregor]

Yesterday evening I had a fit of professional conscience and had to do something very historical. As an act of contrition I laid hand on my Sherbourne and made her looking a little bit closer to the NMM plan.

 

 

The following pictures speak for themselves:

 

 

Then I needed a five-hole deadeye. I took the one provided with the kit, filled the three holes with superglue and sawdust, and drilled five holes today. 

 

 

Now I feel good and fortified for all the liberties I will take with the rigging…

Cheers,

Gregor

[Gregor]

Oh, I'm looking forward to see a photo of your version in your log, Dirk! I really think it was a good idea - it would have been even better to do this right at the start.

It was a bit scary, worse than taking the transom down (there were less things to destroy on deck at the time).

Cheers,

Gregor

[Stockholm tar]

Gregor,

 

'Scary' is the right word!

 

I had also thought of doing this, although it's rather too late I'm afraid in my case. I was somewhat surprised that the forestay deadeye had the same number of holes as those for the shrouds, when subsequent research suggests there were five. However, as I said, it would seem rather late for me to do this, as access would be difficult for a saw – and there are now too many things in place to cut. I think I'll have to play safe and leave well alone!

 

I note however that the lanyard can be fastened in different places. The lanyard of the Alert is, apparently made fast to the apron at the stem, as it would appear is that of the Hawke. The lanyard of the 1785 cutter is however made fast to the forestay, similar to the shrouds.

[tkay11]

I do wish you guys would stop making my life more difficult. Now I have this choice to keep me up at night worrying over whether I'll try it or not. Grrrrrrrr!

 

The challenge is a nice one but I have a feeling this is one too many for the likes of me. Hmmm. Ponder, ponder ...

 

Tony

[Stockholm tar]

Tony,

 

Well, as you know, we do try to please on this forum...

 

You can always do what I think I might do, which is to beef up the lanyard a bit.

[tkay11]

OK, Kester, I'll wait till I see how you do yours, then. Anyway, I'm still finishing off my gun carriages and their rigging, then I have to consider the belaying pin issues which you guys also foisted on to me. I'm beginning to feel like Preserved Killick, as in "I'm coming, I'm coming (mutter, mutter)".

 

The trouble with subversive thoughts is that they stick in the mind, and I'm already thinking of how to build a jig ... oh, no, Preserve me!

 

Tony