Marcus.K.

Well, I think that has a reason: while the decks usually never were painted and the discrepancy between wooden planks and caulking dark brown, nearly black was easy to recognize, it would - on the other hand - be hard to see that different color on black painted ships hulls. And even where there was an ockre paint: that paint would most likely been painted over those caulking gaps. Although I admit, that one may doubt the paint would stick there a long time ... But again to the decks: there you would have this frequently "washing" with "holystones" - a process which frequently would make caulking more prominent to the eye - while the hull was only washed by seawater...

This especial discussion came from HERE. I measured the room between the cable bits in the 1817 Waldo Plans .. and .. there is less than 5 foot room in between those knees! Maybe a bit more - if the knees would be a bit smaller than the posts in the deck. See the sketch of a modified Waldo Gun-Deckplan - including (marked orange) Cable Bitts - and indicated 4,8x10ft platform for the stove. I used the plans scale as reference. Pls. not that the cable bits were moved one position to the stern - having them beside the "fore hatchway" - exactly the Ware Deck Plan for US frigate United States indicates this. In today´s ship the cable bits are moved on position forward - the one beside the for hatchway is now beside the foremast. In the USS Constitution Museum´s Blog : A stoved Boat the author Matthew Brenckle indicates that the stove installed in 1803 might have the height of only 27 inches high - as this is a dimension shown in a delivery note. He states that this oven must have been far to small (also comparing the mentioned price of only 100$ with a price for another later 1827 delivered oven for about 2300 $ ... and I kind of agree. ... And therefore I doubt that this 100$ stove was the main canboose of the ship. I think its more likely a 2nd stove - maybe for the captains pantry or so? ... or maybe for additioal meals. Boudroit shows in his beautiful "74-gun ship" books, that they had several ovens in those ships - even a baking oven for bread. I doubt that our frigate - although being designed to compete with a 74-gun-ship if the weather allows - had a baking oven. Such a big thing would have been mentioned, I guess. But Boudroit shows also several smaller ovens and holding furnace - which would maybe not have been mentiond in the official bills (or may not have been filed) - as they were comparably more cheap (see: 100 $ vs. about 2000 $ !!). This 1827 stove Brenckle points to - showing a drawing for "a frigate" has a width of 6 feet and 3 inches - and that may just fit between cable bitts - if they were moved by 1827 and were also widened a bit. Or: they were for another frigate ? I thinks I need for my 1803-04 version to go for a more slim design for my model - as I will make use the Waldo Deck design. That leads to a ca. 4.8 feet times ca. 10 feet flagstone podest for the oven .. done most likely in granite as it was available in Boston area that time and as this is a very robust and persitant support, being able to widthstand heat, salt water, mechanical stress What do you think about it?

Thanks to your support here and in other forums I learned something by now. We all know that scene: a high-ranking officer, a captain, a commodore, an admiral or maybe even the president, enters the ship's deck. The Boatswain's pipe whistles its typical tone, signaling some sailors in their bright, clean, white uniforms to line up left and right and to salute the “VIP.” Ukrainian Chief of General Staff Gen. Viktor Muzhenko piped aboard USS Mount Whitney (LCC 20) by Capt. Richard Aguilar (July 16, 2018) – 8 sailors prepared for the salute The sailors performing that ceremony are called “sideboys” (although by now female sailors are nothing unusual in our navys). The process seems comparable to an honor guard when a foreign president or another high-ranking official visits your government’s representative, and diplomatic protocol calls for a “reception with military honors.” But there are differences: • The sideboys are never more than 8 – sometimes 6, in some cases even only 4 or 2 of them – depending on the rank of the visitor. • They do not present their arms – they are not armed at all. • They are positioned not in one but in two lines, forming a guard of honor. • Depending on the rank of the newcomer Navy Marines may line up as honor guard too. The details are strictly regulated in the United States Navy Regulations. Depending on the rank of the visitor she/he can expect a certain number of gun salutes, of musicians performing “Ruffles and flourishes”, which is honors music by fanfare, maybe a Navy Marines honor guard but always the mentioned sideboys. Cmd. Crystal L. Schaefer (77th commanding officer of USS Constitution) saluting her sideboys honor guard while taking command 21th of June 2024 In the diplomatic counterpart, the military formation is: • Very often presented only on one side of a red carpet for the host and the guest. • Presenting their (unloaded) arms and being examined and saluted by the diplomatic guest and their host. • Their number is that of a total company or even battalion. • Often more than one individual military unit is presented. then Vice-President Joe Biden visiting Beijing in Aug. 18, 2011 inspecting the honor guard consisting of army and navy units Why is that? Because the origin of both traditional ceremonies is different. And their original tasks were and are today different. The sole common objective is to pay tribute to the VIP. The “diplomatic reception with military service” – as specified in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations – is done to • express the host nation’s readiness to protect the country’s sovereignty and • emphasize that the VIP is now protected by a strong guard while being a guest. That is why the guest is allowed and expected to inspect the guard and their arms in detail to acknowledge their competence for this safeguard. On a Navy ship – depending on the rank of the visitors - the ship's marines corps too perform a guard of honor – as a comparable symbolic gesture. But at first the sideboy salute ceremony will be executed – and it has a completely different origin: When navies consisted of wooden ships, the bigger vessels rarely docked along a rigid pier. This was due to: • Risk of damaging the wooden hulls by being pushed into the pier by changing wind or waves. • The fact that many harbors were not deep enough to allow bigger ships to enter closer to the shoreline or piers. • Preventing sailors from desertion. Usually, a bigger ship was moored more outside the harbor and accessed or exited by using boats (like a Captain's Gig, an Admiral's Barge, etc.). The boat was placed alongside the big ship, and there – somewhere close to the ship’s waist – was usually a rigid wooden “ladder”: the “boarding ladder” or “gangway”. These were wooden steps permanently fixed to the ship’s hull, allowing climbing from about the waterline onto the ship’s bulwarks or upper deck. In some cases – like in some British ships of the line with more than 2 decks, e.g. HMS Victory – there may have been entry openings in the hull on the second gun deck level, which is about the same height as the upper deck on our frigate. HMS Victory´s Boarding ladder and its entry port (the modern gangway on left front side would not being used in its active time) Since high-ranking officers and officials were often quite aged men - marked by battle scars, dismemberments or sicknesses, and not that strong and agile anymore – they sometimes needed assistance. Also, sea and weather conditions might sometimes make that climb a challenging one. That’s where our “sideboys” come into play. Chosen sailors had the honor to place themselves beside the gangway steps – left and right – to assist and secure the guest while climbing upwards. Were the guest too immobile or the sea conditions too critical to risk that way along the ship's side, he (or she) was hoisted with the help of yardarms and sitting in a “boatswain’s chair” – just like a load – onto the ship's deck. That hoisting was also done by the chosen sideboys, who then had – just as at the gangway – a huge responsibility for the comfort and safety of the high-ranking guest. Today, in the age of steel ships, even big vessels are docked along rigid piers, and the gangway is now a wide and long plank with rails on both sides, like a pedestrian bridge, making access to a ship not that dangerous anymore. In modern times sideboys have to be present at the bulwark entrance when our guest is putting his or her foot onto the ship’s decks – as the ship’s crew guard of honor, to welcome and salute the new guest and to symbolically guarantee comfort and protection from all maritime adversities. This is where today's sideboy tradition has its origin. In about 1800, when ships were still wooden, the three big frigates (US Frigates United States, President and Constitution) were used as squadron flagships. Those big frigates would have been seen in the young independent colonies as we see a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier today. They were – at least in length and sail power – on par with the world’s biggest and most powerful ships of that time. Shure, they did not have the fire- and manpower of a ship of the line – but their batterie was meant to compete with even 2nd rated ships (two-decker battleships) in case of bad weather (when the battleship was not able to make use of its biggest guns in the lowest gun deck). And their sailing performance was meant to outsail them in good weather (when a battleship was capable to outgun the frigates impressive 24 pounder battery with its even bigger guns). So, they might not have been seen as the absolute top predator on the seas – but due to their different design, battle tactics and strategic task they were among the cutting-edge technology of the time. They were the biggest ships in American harbors. Of course, sometimes British or other nations' ships of the line were visiting. But remember: Old Ironsides' total length is nearly the same as the British three-decker and Lord Nelson's Trafalgar-flagship: HMS Victory! These American Super Frigates were big! And they were the pride of the young navy – used as ship of the state, to impress and sometimes to even intimidate. And they were frequently visited by high ranked officers, diplomatic personnel and important “VIPs.” Besides the frigate's captain, there usually was a commodore – a squadron leader – on board. Both men – and all other VIPs - regularly had to be honored with their “safety guard” on the ship's side gangway while taking command, while entering, or leaving the ship. The sideboys needed to be placed on both sides of the regular steps, and therefore there were either elongated steps or additional steps to allow the sideboys to be positioned. For me that at least provides certain evidence that the big frigates – as being flagships of the young US Navy in those days – had wooden boarding Ladders and additional 3 steps per side for their sideboys and their high-ranked guests safety. I guess I will try to represent those 6 additional steps and I think I may try to even represent that ceremony in its original tradition. If I represent the ship as being moored I may add a commodore arriving in a boat while his sideboys are waiting at the boarding ladder and 2 of them on deck at the bulwark. Not sure if he had the right to get 8 of them (6 on the ladder and 2 on the bulwark) - but I guess a commodore would be treated at least as today a vice admiral? Those additional 6 steps are a tiny detail – and not visible anymore since Nicholas Cammillieri’s 1824 portrait of the ship. [USS Constitution Museum Collection, 1729.1] in any painting or photo later on. But: they seem to have been in place between in the ship’s early years – at least until about the end of the War of 1812-15 – when the US Navy received their battleships – which then took over the function of being flagship. From that time span on only the single boarding ladder is being in place – until today. USS Constitutions boarding ladder c.1931-1934 Let me know your thoughts about it.

Welcome! According to Wikipedia and THIS page this may have been the first ship, your GGGGrandfather did build - from idea to launch: The Courier Seems he just participated in smaller vessels before - but started with clippers right from the beginning.

Well, there are hints, that the late 1804 got a billet head already. https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2017/03/03/bow-decor/ And here is a beautiful building log for a 1809 appearance: https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t7612f264-USS-CONSTITUTION-Bauzustand-Wasserlinienmodell-58.html#msg206074 There may be some bugs in it - but its a true beauty. 1809 of course there have been some changes especially in decor design (as there was an "update" done in 1807-08). Its a bit hard to tell what was done with which results as there are only verbal descriptions ... and I vote for a lot of similarities to the Isaac Hull model in PEM, Salem, which was done by sailors for Captain Hull after the glorious battle against HMS Guerriere 1812. For the pre-1808 decor we also have not much reliable sources. Some descriptions in letters about intended or observed designs and those beautiful paintings by Corne.. which are not very clear and leave a lot of room for speculation as the have their spezialisiert issues.... I am working on collecting the available info and trying to find a reasonable and likely interpretation. But all that is still in a "flowting" process were I change my mind frequently 🤪 It is really hard to tell. All that shall one day be represented in my model build showing her 1803-04 ... I love all those models out there showing the ships 1797 appearance - but in each of them I find at least one "mistake" (in my humble opinion). But anyhow: in her youth she was a real beauty!

Then maybe modify your plan: the big frigate lost old-Hercules in a collision with USS President in 1804. She was repaired in - where was it? In a Port in mediterian sea.. (ChatGPT tells me, that it was Valetta on Malta, true?) with a first billethead - while the rest of decoration seemed to have survived until 1807-08, for when there is a Bill for reworked decoration. You may represent the ship in late 1804 or in 1805 ... By the way: l like your result so far!

Do you ask chatGPT? I got a very similar answer. 😁 But this answer is kind of generic for most of designs done in "segmented" way. All that may have been in the builders mind .. or may be not. Who knows? Be careful with AI answers: they seem to be reasonable, they sound sophisticated - that generates trust ... but that "AI" does not understand one word you ask or tell. Its generating "most likely answers". Its not "intellegent". Its a very fast statistically calculating maschine! For example: ask for Tyrone H. Martin in connection with USS Constitution and see what its guessing. But its fun to hear their answers: very likely the answer may be true. 😉

What I believe to see in those pictures too: is the original cutwater size visible in all those pictures? Are those two segments below the billet head in your design the ones which "filled" the gap, the original Hercules figurehead would have needed? I believe to see a change of color in that area in that 1870s photo. That might indicate "older" wood there, while above and behind we see more "fresh" wooden elements? Don't you want to show Hercules?

Ah, now I got it: the plan in your second photo is kind of a result from the 1929 plan? I agree: at least me, I never saw a so much fragmented cutwater - even on bigger ships. For sure the cutwatercwas build, but ... Any division is weakening a structure. If possible, they would have tried to have as big pieces as possible. The three parallel long "bars" in the center: why not having only one here? That small triangle in the center. All that does not seem logical to me - except for availability of wood in the needed size or for missing possibilities with Maschinen or other manufakturing limitations. But back in 1800 maschines were not an issue since the wood was worked manually and individually anyhow! And size of available wooden pieces wasn't really an issue.. But looking into the available photos, it seems: the big frigate had - at least in the 1870s - the same structure... Here a photo of Lords 1929 restauration.. And here a picture of 1872: You can see the relative small pieces, the cutwater is build from. On the other hand: the two workers in the first photo indicate how BIG those "small" pieces are! All from here: https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/08/05/cutwater/ So maybe our expectation, "trained" by the review of other ships, is mistaking us..

What don't you like? The way the wood allows to see that it is in fact one piece? But another question: what is the source for that very segmented design? Why would that be needed in a country full with very big trees? I guess need of bigger pieces of wood can't be an argument. So why that much division lines?

Funny! 1st: I am a born "Pfälzer" (the name of the area on the other side of the river Rhein, were our teammate Pfälzer obviously is from too, Palatina - not Palestine) .. maybe comparable mistakes in English lead to that mistake as we would do comparable ones having the exact same mothertongue. 2nd: in fact I live now a bit "behind" Ettlingen, if looked from Karlsruhe. So next time, you are in Germany you are invited to visit me with great pleasure!

I am pretty sure I do not deserve these praises.. as my build is a Revell plastic kit and far, far from being an example for anyone, I fear. Could you pls. add a link to the mentioned "Marcus' Pfälzer build"? But anyhow: my opinion is just that. An opinion. Your build, and your decision! And I am sure either way: it will be a beauty!

Sometimes decisions are hard, but you need to think from the ending point of view (is that correct english?). You would always look onto the model and regret to have not done the hard cut. I believe the painted model is the better choice. And: I agree : those photos show perfect craftsmenship... maybe art! Excellent!

THAT is an interesting book - thanks for sharing! Decorative Figures on ships sterns and quarter galleries Here in pictures, how I right now understand the words in that bill: "one pair trusses for Stern [pair] Bracketts for Quarters" - this is one of the statements I am not sure about. "trusses" (I guess this is framework below the surface, to support structurally) for a pair of stern brackets for quarters. Where would wooden frame-work be needed? I do not see the need of any extra wooden support pieces for any brackets below the stern decoration in Old Ironsides - beside those lower finishings on the galleries. For those the wording "pair" would make sence. AND: a "bracket" in architecture is an often a very decorative element, supporting a wider structure onto a vertical "wall" - like a balcony or something comparable. So maybe this interpreation and naming of the elements makes sense? As stated: there IS a pair of brackets - which are these interesting and a bit strange brackets left and right of the window section (visible in the 1812 Isaac-Hull-Model) .. but why would those more "decorative" and most likely "symbolic" brackets - for which its just not clear what they do support? They are a bit too high for that decorative structual "bridge" of stars and eagle above the stern windows. They may be "intended" to support the upper bow - the one with the two ladies (Justice and Liberty?) and the strange elements in the top center of the stern decoration - just above the eagle. But why would THOSE need any "trusses". If that would be right, then the decorative "drob" below the planking of the galleries (and visible from the stern) may also be named "brackets" - ans this structure seemingly supports the galleries as a total element. Is there anything out there to support that interpretation of the elements of a Gallery?

She´s still a dangerous beast, isn´t she? 🤣 ... and still undefeated !