JohnE

Pulled up a comfy chair and got some popcorn. Excellent research project, Wayne. Rarely see much about the Provincial Marine, but they certainly were the other half of the Tango. If 54 feet is length on the keel, is it possible to get length between perps/length on deck from Bell's draughts? It might help better determine size/dimensions of her sail plan. Looking forward to seeing your progress on this. Regards, John

Canvas comes from old French “canevas” or “canevaz”, literally, ‘made of hemp’. Over the years, it morphed. The Dutch, not being able to grow cannabis, used flax; they called it “zeildoek”, literally, ‘sail cloth’. The weight of the cloth (pounds per square whatever) determined its usage. The lighter grades were called linen, the heavier grades were called canvas (presumably because some hemp fiber was incorporated into the weave). After a while, sailcloth was just called “duck”; soft-duck, hard-duck, canvas-duck, etc.. The Russians developed a technique for double carding flax to make it more pliable. It was very useful on linen-weight and intermediate-weight cloths. Sailcloth prepared in this way eventually became known as, simply “duck”. The heavy-weather stuff was still, simply “canvas”. All made on hand looms, till about 1800, so the lighter, softer, fibers made for a more tightly woven, resilient, and stronger cloth (for its weight) than the larger fiber flax/hemp equivalents. For all its advantages, the cost (and time) needed to trim, card, and twist flax into fibers of a size useable for courses or topsails, made it uneconomical for all but the wealthiest. The Russian Navy used it, but then, the Czar said so, so … The colonies were cut off from internal manufacture of this sort in the normal course of events, and during the unpleasantness, were supposedly cut off from Euro imports altogether, so we had to do something. There was decades of experience with cotton as an alternative to flax, but it was all simple short staple: hardy, coarse, but flexible, it wasn’t much better than flax, and cotton had the disadvantage of being more hygroscopic than flax. Okey dokey, except for the weight aloft rule. Then somebody (who deserves a statue) thought about the long-staple Sea Island variety. Not as hardy, but just as flexible, if not more so, but could also be carded fine, and woven tight. Because the fibers could be linked and twisted, it was a perfect solution for light and intermediate sailcloth weights. The biggies, of course, still used hemp in the weave. Until about the 1800s or so, when the power loom came on-line and could weave ‘tighter and lighter’ than before. So, even today, sailboats raise “canvas”, even though it’s Dacron. Rarely, will you hear the term duck. Hemp is what ya smoke, and flax is what happens to your winkie with too much hemp. I really hope I haven’t given you more information than you really wanted. Ciao. John

Found some very interesting things in the collection of documents my friend got access to at Service historique de la Défense. Thought I might share my impressions. Now these are strictly my impressions and interpretations. Some of my conclusions are unsupported by anything other than opinion. Any errors are mine alone. France, seemingly, had rather large resources of ship construction woods. She also had access to materials from a great deal of the rest continent (at least after 1806). Having access to materials was one thing, but cutting it out, getting it to the shipyards, seasoning it, and slicing it up for use, was another. St Malo built several major vessels for the French Navy, and certainly can’t be considered tyros, but when St Malo got the contract for Eurydice (the first Pallas class it would build), it was accompanied by a note instructing the yard to ensure the ways were ‘aligned’ properly. The terminology is a bit obscure, but I read it as ‘polar alignment’, meaning North/South. Aligning the shipway North/South means the sun strikes both sides equally and affects the port and starboard timbers the same, so they will shrink the same, over time, and the right and left halves will be relative duplicates. Shrinking one side with respect to the other makes for a hull that is considered ‘cranky’; one that performs different on one board from the other. So, this leads me to believe that a lot of the timbers used during the Empire period were pretty green. Well dried, salted, seasoned, timbers would not be so susceptible to simple weathering. Radiational heating, affecting timbers, suggests out-gassing and internal volumetric expansion/contraction; things that suggest green timber. Would love to hear from someone who knows more about this aspect of French shipbuilding. Ciao. John

Russ, Understand completely. Just wanted to post another corner of "national technical means" info for period vessels. Ciao. John

Height of sill; what the French did. Two numbers, the French dimension and then the corresponding, calculated, British dimension. Know this is not exactly what you asked, but there were some Brit ships built on French models, and quite a few captured vessels put into service. Doubt if things were all that different between the various naval paradigms. 36 pdr (Fr) .. 2’ 2” (Fr) .. 2’ ½” (Br) 18 pdr (Fr) .. 1” 9” (Fr) .. 1’ 7 ½ “ (Br) 08 pdr (Fr) .. 1’ 3” (Fr) .. 1’ 1 ¼ “ (Br) Not exactly sure how these correspond to nominal bore diameters. Gonna have to slog my way through a Russian artillery reference to be sure, but given scaling and all, I think Mr Russ has the right answer for any practical application. Ciao. John

Chilean ship Sandoval? John

Me too. Have used TurboCAD for work for many years. Am using it now for drafting plans from draughts from NMM and SHD. I like it.

Not sure this belongs here, but didn't want to put it in tech threads. Looking for teensy things to start my build. Lived for 20 years in Cali. You can't get a needle unless you have a Drs scrip or you are a State or Federally registered drug addict. Okay. Moved to Alabama. Went to the Winn Dixie to get moms' prescriptions and asked the pharmacist the question; looking for some needles I can clip the sharp off of and use to burn some nice circular holes in pieces of wood. So Tracy says "now that's different. what gauges are you wanting?" Now I have no clue and start in on millimeters, cause I don't know gauges from squat. So Tracey says "ok, lemme give you a selection. You got $2?" God bless Winn Dixie and God bless Alabama. John

Michael, Been a design engineer for 10 years, and a patent attorney for 20 more. Have used Corel Draw all that time, am also to v11. Once you know it, it's like that fuzzy bear blanket you just can't seem to let go of. Did have to get a bit more grarly professional about some things and went with TurboCAD. I've had v7 on the machine for a while, but saw a legacy out-of-stock box of v17 on the wall for $109. Bought it, loaded and registered it. IMSI came back with an email the said "click here" for your free upgrade to v18 Pro. Like I didn't get all over that in a heartbeat? Used TurboCAD in the past to do some really technical stuff so I'm no novice to it. v18, though, is a generational advance. I'm doing some work for Airbus with it and it interfaces seamlessly with their $10k drafting programs, both up and down. Am going to use it for plan drafting. Think it's pretty righteous and is a good alternative to AutoCAD. Just MHO. John

I am beginning a project to prepare plans for a Virginie class Sane frigate. Your build log is an inspiration. Cannot begin to say how impressed I am. I will be using TurboCAD v18 and Solidworks for my own project, Thank you for setting the bar so high. As the French would say totalement incroyable. John

Ed, just got volume 1 in the mail. Was cutting the grass out front when the mail gal came by and shouted 'hey John, got something too big for mailbox for you.' Saw the package, heated up some steak fajitas, and opened it up. Ohhh ... !!! Poor front yard looks like a bad Mohawk haircut and the poor mower is still in the middle of it. Worth it. Prolly the best purchase I have made in many years and will be consulted, thumbed and annotated unmercifully. Thank you Ed. Woof ! John

Ed, Just got it and am thumbing my way through, Can you say orgasmic? Once I start reading it, I'm sure my head will explode. I wanted it not so much for Naiad, but for the tips and techniques. I have this project involving a side-by-side build of 1800s French and English midship section, detailing construction techniques. I think I might order another copy to keep in the library, because the first is sure to become a dog-eared, back-broken, annotated, mess. God bless and keep, Ed. Don't know anybody I would rather give 2x the book revenue to. Ciao. John