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Force9

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  1. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from Marcus.K. in Wales   
    Hello all...
     
    A very interesting discussion to which I can add nothing substantial.  Clearly the American 44s had Wales built into their structure, but how prominent they would appear on the ship makes for interesting possibilities.
     
    My knee jerk reflex is to reject any reference to the John Lord restoration when considering historical configurations of the Constitution.  He seemed more concerned with cost and practicality than any historic exactitude. 
     
    I have a copy of Commander Tyrone Martin's pamphlet "Creating A Legend" which outlines the design and construction of the Constitution along with an appendix section for Humphreys' notes and construction directives.
     
    Some that seem pertinent:
     
    Height amidships of lower edge of the wale: 17' 11"
    Six strakes of Wales, ten inches wide: 5'
    Height from the top of the wale to port sill: 2' 11"
    Main Wale: six strakes on each side, seven inches thick and ten inches wide.
    ...The upper edge of the black strake to be mitered down to a level, in order to carry the water out of the seam: plank between the black strake and the string, to be three and one-half inches thick.
     
    Pg. 70 with Martin's description based on Humphreys' notes: "The area of the main Wales was six strakes (courses of timber) high.  The strakes of planking above and below the main wale gradually tapered down until the uppermost strakes were just three and a half inches thick.  Below the Wales, the strakes thinned again to four and a half inches as they turned under the bilge, then thickened again to six inches at the keel.  All of the strakes above the main Wales had their upper surfaces mitered down so that water would not collect in the seams.

    Fun stuff!
    Cheers,
    Evan
     
  2. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from The Bitter End in Wales   
    Hello all...
     
    A very interesting discussion to which I can add nothing substantial.  Clearly the American 44s had Wales built into their structure, but how prominent they would appear on the ship makes for interesting possibilities.
     
    My knee jerk reflex is to reject any reference to the John Lord restoration when considering historical configurations of the Constitution.  He seemed more concerned with cost and practicality than any historic exactitude. 
     
    I have a copy of Commander Tyrone Martin's pamphlet "Creating A Legend" which outlines the design and construction of the Constitution along with an appendix section for Humphreys' notes and construction directives.
     
    Some that seem pertinent:
     
    Height amidships of lower edge of the wale: 17' 11"
    Six strakes of Wales, ten inches wide: 5'
    Height from the top of the wale to port sill: 2' 11"
    Main Wale: six strakes on each side, seven inches thick and ten inches wide.
    ...The upper edge of the black strake to be mitered down to a level, in order to carry the water out of the seam: plank between the black strake and the string, to be three and one-half inches thick.
     
    Pg. 70 with Martin's description based on Humphreys' notes: "The area of the main Wales was six strakes (courses of timber) high.  The strakes of planking above and below the main wale gradually tapered down until the uppermost strakes were just three and a half inches thick.  Below the Wales, the strakes thinned again to four and a half inches as they turned under the bilge, then thickened again to six inches at the keel.  All of the strakes above the main Wales had their upper surfaces mitered down so that water would not collect in the seams.

    Fun stuff!
    Cheers,
    Evan
     
  3. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from Jeff59 in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    Ahoy all...
     
    Apologies for the lack of updates... Still alive.
     
    Workshop has been too hot in the throes of summer, but I've made some small progress.  It'll be a few more weeks before I get far enough to post anything worthwhile.
     
    In the meantime, I have been gathering equipment and testing the editing software so that I can start the long-threatened Titanic VLOG on YouTube.  Look for that in September. (and keep your expectations on quality low!)
     
    Cheers
    Evan
  4. Like
    Force9 reacted to Jeff59 in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    Really glad you’re still alive, hey, everyone needs a break from routines or you just get fed up 🤛
  5. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from madtatt in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    Ahoy all...
     
    Apologies for the lack of updates... Still alive.
     
    Workshop has been too hot in the throes of summer, but I've made some small progress.  It'll be a few more weeks before I get far enough to post anything worthwhile.
     
    In the meantime, I have been gathering equipment and testing the editing software so that I can start the long-threatened Titanic VLOG on YouTube.  Look for that in September. (and keep your expectations on quality low!)
     
    Cheers
    Evan
  6. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from madtatt in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    The after Well Deck (Starboard)
     
    I moved aft and continued the thinning of the Well Deck bulwarks.

    The drill was again put to work… I removed a section starting an inch or so behind the aft end of the break (where the kit molding changes thickness) and extending a bit forward of where the break ends (to give a bit of wiggle room to for a future modification).

    A quick pass with the hand saw will finish the job.
     
    I use a sturdy file to clean the jagged edge:

    Finally, I’ll need to use a medium and fine file to get a clean opening:

    Now to add the bulwark. 
     
    This was similarly outlined on a small sheet of .020” styrene as we saw on the forward well deck.
     
    I created a mockup to make sure everything fit in the opening.  I used the KA brass bulwark as a template to determine the gangway door locations.  I moved the wash port openings a bit higher to allow for the additional interior bulwark details to clear the Trumpeter decking with the added thickness of the wood deck veneer on top.  Details were added using thin .010” strip.

    I installed the new bulwark and then etched the outlines of the gangway doors on the exterior.

    It all looked good – until it didn’t.  Something was amiss…
     
    Have a look at the aft Well Deck exterior detail extracted from Robert Read’s profile:

    I really need to account for all the areas highlighted… The doubling strakes need to be added along with the strake below to give the correct dimension to the side.
     
    Additionally, I need to reconsider the wash ports.  Many modelers complain that @#$@ Trumpeter did not completely open the aft well deck wash ports and they must put in the extra effort to open them up.  
     
    The kit has an indentation to show their location, but they are molded with a solid interior.  
    Ugh.  
     
    or… maybe…they got that almost right…?
     
    It seems to me that all the photos/representations showing these wash ports on the Titanic always have them with their covers closed over the openings. I can’t find an exception.  I suspect that Trumpeter was trying to compromise – show the wash ports, but represent a cover on the interior.
     
    I ripped out the newly installed bulwark and started over.
     
    I cut another bulwark using the template I had already made for the first pass.  This time I used .015” styrene for the main bulwark piece. 
     
     I then added a strip of .005” styrene that I cut using my new (and very masculine) Fiskar paper cutter.  I purchased this at a steep discount during an online sale a few months ago.

    This is very useful for cutting strips of .005” up to .020” styrene sheet.
     
    I shaped the gangway doors using .005” styrene and added them to the exterior.  Then I inserted filler strips shaped to match the curve of the doors (Circled below) and extended the strake across the bulwark piece - protruding a bit on each end.  This’ll help merge everything into the kit and keep it flush to the sides.

    I drilled the mooring openings and added thin .005” styrene to represent the closed wash port covers. 

    The result is ready to install.

    The seams were filled with Tamiya putty diluted with Lacquer thinner and sanded smooth.

    The doubling strake can now be added using more of the .005” styrene strips made using the Fiskar cutter.

    More .005” strip was added to the lower strake to give additional dimension.  The ports were re-drilled from the inside.
     
    New doubling straps were strategically placed to hide the ends of the new pieces.  These were fashioned from .005” strip with rivets added using another fun new tool:

    This is a “corner” rivet tool that allows for accurate embossing of the parallel rivet pattern on small styrene strip:

    Apply even pressure to get the indentations, then flip over and cement in place.

    Finally, I did some careful filing to smooth the top edge.
     
    I think this’ll work.
     
    I’ll add the interior detail on the next post.
     
    Cheers,
    Evan
  7. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from madtatt in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    The Bilge Keel
     
    The kit provided bilge keels are – no surprise – subpar.  No hate on Trumpeter here… It’s nearly impossible to create an accurate keel using injection molding.  It’d be too thin and would likely warp as it cooled on the sprue.

    So, the kit version is very thick/heavy and lacks any of the detail that the actual keel would show.
     
    Here is what TITANIC – TSM shows for these keels:

    You can see that we need thinner representations with doubling strips top and bottom along with a narrow cope along the outer edge of the underside.
     
    I think there have been 3D print versions for these, but that seems like overkill.  These are very easy to scratch build at minimal cost.  Any modeler can (and should) make these.
     
    I purchased some Styrene T pieces from PLASTRUCT:

    These are long – 24” – so that I don’t need to combine smaller lengths. Just trim the piece to fit the outline on the model.  I found these at the nearby Model Railroad store.  Those guys build model bridges with this stuff.
     
    First, I shaped the curvature on both ends using my hobby knife and a quick pass with a medium metal file.
     
    Next, I dipped into my stash for various strips to add the cope and doubling/reinforcement:

    I’ll use the wider .080” strip for the top surface and the slightly smaller .060” on the underside.  That’ll generally align to what the TSM diagram shows. 
     
    A quick test fit to confirm that the basic dimensions align to what is needed for the scale:

    Couldn’t be easier to lay down the topside .080“ styrene strip… Just rest it in position against the inner corner of the T, apply some thin cement, and let the capillary action fill in underneath. It takes two pieces to cover the distance.  I just matched the factory ends together for a tight fit.  The seam is basically invisible.  Let the smaller length extend a bit beyond the end of the T piece and trim to fit after it sets.

    Flip it over and do the same on the underside using the .060” strip.
     
    Finally add the .010” x .020” cope to the underside edge.  I used a small metal ruler to help align to the edge as I applied cement:

    The underside completed:



    A meaningful improvement over the kit version, I think.
     
    It just takes a few minutes to whip these together.  Fun to build for anyone wanting to try a little scratch building on their Titanic.
     
    I’ve decided to hold off a bit longer on installation… These would be vulnerable as I continue to flip the hull around on various other add-ons.
     
    The starboard after well deck bulwark is up next.
     
    Cheers,
    Evan
  8. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from madtatt in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    @Jeff59 - The hull modifications have not YET pushed me over the edge... Stay tuned.  Speaking of temporary insanity - Great to see your progress on the Bismarck.
     
    @md1400cs Thanks for keeping up with my build.  I appreciate the encouragement.
     
     
    More Starboard Well Deck Bulwark Detail
     
    I’ve made progress on the Well Deck.
     
    Details have been added to the interior of the bulwark:


    Sliding bolts, bulwark stay rods, etc. will be added at a later stage. I’ll likely utilize the KA PE versions of the rigging pad eyes.
     
    The exterior has also been refined a bit.
     


    You can see the doubling strake is in place as well as doubling plates.  These plates are only the underlying beds at this point… I will come back and add a top layer to these using the thinnest styrene sheet that will include the rivet pattern.
     
    Additionally, the coping strip has now been extended across the new piece using .10” x .20” Styrene strip. This is also added along the top edge of the Fo’c’sle wash plate that was recently added. 
    A bit tricky to keep it straight along the edge – a small metal ruler was a useful guide while gluing.

    More fun to come.
     
    Cheers,
    Evan
  9. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from madtatt in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    Fo’c’sle Railing Detail
     
    Before proceeding I need to attend to another detail up forward… 
     
    Around the Fo’c’sle there should be a lip that extends above the deck.  It serves as a wash plate and supports the base of the railings.  This is not accounted for in our kit, but I think KA or Pontos includes a solution in their photo etch offering.
     
    We can see it in the detail of the Father Browne photo referenced earlier:

    First, I’ll file down a bit of the existing edge of the Trumpeter kit -just down to the existing coping strip.  This will allow the new strip to be seated down a bit to be even with the deck.


    Next, I’ll chisel away the kit coping strip.  This'll be added back later:



    Everything is now prepped to add a strip of angle styrene:

    I’ll extend it the length of the Fo’c’sle for now… I’ll eventually need to trim it back to allow for the details that affix to the very front of the bow.



     
    Lastly, I’ll need to add the new coping strip to the very top outer edge of the angle strip. This should all align a bit better to the actual ship than what Trumpeter has in place.
     
    Cheers,
    Evan
  10. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from Jeff59 in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    The Bilge Keel
     
    The kit provided bilge keels are – no surprise – subpar.  No hate on Trumpeter here… It’s nearly impossible to create an accurate keel using injection molding.  It’d be too thin and would likely warp as it cooled on the sprue.

    So, the kit version is very thick/heavy and lacks any of the detail that the actual keel would show.
     
    Here is what TITANIC – TSM shows for these keels:

    You can see that we need thinner representations with doubling strips top and bottom along with a narrow cope along the outer edge of the underside.
     
    I think there have been 3D print versions for these, but that seems like overkill.  These are very easy to scratch build at minimal cost.  Any modeler can (and should) make these.
     
    I purchased some Styrene T pieces from PLASTRUCT:

    These are long – 24” – so that I don’t need to combine smaller lengths. Just trim the piece to fit the outline on the model.  I found these at the nearby Model Railroad store.  Those guys build model bridges with this stuff.
     
    First, I shaped the curvature on both ends using my hobby knife and a quick pass with a medium metal file.
     
    Next, I dipped into my stash for various strips to add the cope and doubling/reinforcement:

    I’ll use the wider .080” strip for the top surface and the slightly smaller .060” on the underside.  That’ll generally align to what the TSM diagram shows. 
     
    A quick test fit to confirm that the basic dimensions align to what is needed for the scale:

    Couldn’t be easier to lay down the topside .080“ styrene strip… Just rest it in position against the inner corner of the T, apply some thin cement, and let the capillary action fill in underneath. It takes two pieces to cover the distance.  I just matched the factory ends together for a tight fit.  The seam is basically invisible.  Let the smaller length extend a bit beyond the end of the T piece and trim to fit after it sets.

    Flip it over and do the same on the underside using the .060” strip.
     
    Finally add the .010” x .020” cope to the underside edge.  I used a small metal ruler to help align to the edge as I applied cement:

    The underside completed:



    A meaningful improvement over the kit version, I think.
     
    It just takes a few minutes to whip these together.  Fun to build for anyone wanting to try a little scratch building on their Titanic.
     
    I’ve decided to hold off a bit longer on installation… These would be vulnerable as I continue to flip the hull around on various other add-ons.
     
    The starboard after well deck bulwark is up next.
     
    Cheers,
    Evan
  11. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from Marcus.K. in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    Ahoy all...
     
    Apologies for the lack of updates... Still alive.
     
    Workshop has been too hot in the throes of summer, but I've made some small progress.  It'll be a few more weeks before I get far enough to post anything worthwhile.
     
    In the meantime, I have been gathering equipment and testing the editing software so that I can start the long-threatened Titanic VLOG on YouTube.  Look for that in September. (and keep your expectations on quality low!)
     
    Cheers
    Evan
  12. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from dodgeyhack in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    Ahoy all...
     
    Apologies for the lack of updates... Still alive.
     
    Workshop has been too hot in the throes of summer, but I've made some small progress.  It'll be a few more weeks before I get far enough to post anything worthwhile.
     
    In the meantime, I have been gathering equipment and testing the editing software so that I can start the long-threatened Titanic VLOG on YouTube.  Look for that in September. (and keep your expectations on quality low!)
     
    Cheers
    Evan
  13. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from MisterMeester in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    Ahoy all...
     
    Apologies for the lack of updates... Still alive.
     
    Workshop has been too hot in the throes of summer, but I've made some small progress.  It'll be a few more weeks before I get far enough to post anything worthwhile.
     
    In the meantime, I have been gathering equipment and testing the editing software so that I can start the long-threatened Titanic VLOG on YouTube.  Look for that in September. (and keep your expectations on quality low!)
     
    Cheers
    Evan
  14. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from Maxthebuilder in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    Ahoy all...
     
    Apologies for the lack of updates... Still alive.
     
    Workshop has been too hot in the throes of summer, but I've made some small progress.  It'll be a few more weeks before I get far enough to post anything worthwhile.
     
    In the meantime, I have been gathering equipment and testing the editing software so that I can start the long-threatened Titanic VLOG on YouTube.  Look for that in September. (and keep your expectations on quality low!)
     
    Cheers
    Evan
  15. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from Jeff59 in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    @MisterMeester  Ahoy Mark... Great progress on your fine build.  I really do think the scratch built bilge keels are a better option.
     
    Cheers
     
    @Hubac's Historian Hello Marc!  Thanks again for your continued interest.  Your compliments are very appreciated - especially coming from such a skilled scratch modeler.  Funny that my Constitution build still resonates out there in the ether.  I promise to pick up where I last left off once I conquer the Titanic.
     
    Folks - I have threatened to start a Youtube channel to widen the audience for my build.  I've decided to hold off until I've worked my way down the starboard side of the kit and figure out all my scratch build modifications.  Then I'll come back to the Port side and let the Youtube audience (BOTH of them - one of whom will be my wife!) follow along.  It'll be useful to have the starboard side as a template to explain everything as I start to videotape and post on my channel.
     
    Please stay tuned.
     
    Evan
  16. Wow!
    Force9 got a reaction from king derelict in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    The after Well Deck (Starboard)
     
    I moved aft and continued the thinning of the Well Deck bulwarks.

    The drill was again put to work… I removed a section starting an inch or so behind the aft end of the break (where the kit molding changes thickness) and extending a bit forward of where the break ends (to give a bit of wiggle room to for a future modification).

    A quick pass with the hand saw will finish the job.
     
    I use a sturdy file to clean the jagged edge:

    Finally, I’ll need to use a medium and fine file to get a clean opening:

    Now to add the bulwark. 
     
    This was similarly outlined on a small sheet of .020” styrene as we saw on the forward well deck.
     
    I created a mockup to make sure everything fit in the opening.  I used the KA brass bulwark as a template to determine the gangway door locations.  I moved the wash port openings a bit higher to allow for the additional interior bulwark details to clear the Trumpeter decking with the added thickness of the wood deck veneer on top.  Details were added using thin .010” strip.

    I installed the new bulwark and then etched the outlines of the gangway doors on the exterior.

    It all looked good – until it didn’t.  Something was amiss…
     
    Have a look at the aft Well Deck exterior detail extracted from Robert Read’s profile:

    I really need to account for all the areas highlighted… The doubling strakes need to be added along with the strake below to give the correct dimension to the side.
     
    Additionally, I need to reconsider the wash ports.  Many modelers complain that @#$@ Trumpeter did not completely open the aft well deck wash ports and they must put in the extra effort to open them up.  
     
    The kit has an indentation to show their location, but they are molded with a solid interior.  
    Ugh.  
     
    or… maybe…they got that almost right…?
     
    It seems to me that all the photos/representations showing these wash ports on the Titanic always have them with their covers closed over the openings. I can’t find an exception.  I suspect that Trumpeter was trying to compromise – show the wash ports, but represent a cover on the interior.
     
    I ripped out the newly installed bulwark and started over.
     
    I cut another bulwark using the template I had already made for the first pass.  This time I used .015” styrene for the main bulwark piece. 
     
     I then added a strip of .005” styrene that I cut using my new (and very masculine) Fiskar paper cutter.  I purchased this at a steep discount during an online sale a few months ago.

    This is very useful for cutting strips of .005” up to .020” styrene sheet.
     
    I shaped the gangway doors using .005” styrene and added them to the exterior.  Then I inserted filler strips shaped to match the curve of the doors (Circled below) and extended the strake across the bulwark piece - protruding a bit on each end.  This’ll help merge everything into the kit and keep it flush to the sides.

    I drilled the mooring openings and added thin .005” styrene to represent the closed wash port covers. 

    The result is ready to install.

    The seams were filled with Tamiya putty diluted with Lacquer thinner and sanded smooth.

    The doubling strake can now be added using more of the .005” styrene strips made using the Fiskar cutter.

    More .005” strip was added to the lower strake to give additional dimension.  The ports were re-drilled from the inside.
     
    New doubling straps were strategically placed to hide the ends of the new pieces.  These were fashioned from .005” strip with rivets added using another fun new tool:

    This is a “corner” rivet tool that allows for accurate embossing of the parallel rivet pattern on small styrene strip:

    Apply even pressure to get the indentations, then flip over and cement in place.

    Finally, I did some careful filing to smooth the top edge.
     
    I think this’ll work.
     
    I’ll add the interior detail on the next post.
     
    Cheers,
    Evan
  17. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from king derelict in TITANIC by Force9 – Trumpeter - 1/200 - PLASTIC - White Star Liner   
    The Bilge Keel
     
    The kit provided bilge keels are – no surprise – subpar.  No hate on Trumpeter here… It’s nearly impossible to create an accurate keel using injection molding.  It’d be too thin and would likely warp as it cooled on the sprue.

    So, the kit version is very thick/heavy and lacks any of the detail that the actual keel would show.
     
    Here is what TITANIC – TSM shows for these keels:

    You can see that we need thinner representations with doubling strips top and bottom along with a narrow cope along the outer edge of the underside.
     
    I think there have been 3D print versions for these, but that seems like overkill.  These are very easy to scratch build at minimal cost.  Any modeler can (and should) make these.
     
    I purchased some Styrene T pieces from PLASTRUCT:

    These are long – 24” – so that I don’t need to combine smaller lengths. Just trim the piece to fit the outline on the model.  I found these at the nearby Model Railroad store.  Those guys build model bridges with this stuff.
     
    First, I shaped the curvature on both ends using my hobby knife and a quick pass with a medium metal file.
     
    Next, I dipped into my stash for various strips to add the cope and doubling/reinforcement:

    I’ll use the wider .080” strip for the top surface and the slightly smaller .060” on the underside.  That’ll generally align to what the TSM diagram shows. 
     
    A quick test fit to confirm that the basic dimensions align to what is needed for the scale:

    Couldn’t be easier to lay down the topside .080“ styrene strip… Just rest it in position against the inner corner of the T, apply some thin cement, and let the capillary action fill in underneath. It takes two pieces to cover the distance.  I just matched the factory ends together for a tight fit.  The seam is basically invisible.  Let the smaller length extend a bit beyond the end of the T piece and trim to fit after it sets.

    Flip it over and do the same on the underside using the .060” strip.
     
    Finally add the .010” x .020” cope to the underside edge.  I used a small metal ruler to help align to the edge as I applied cement:

    The underside completed:



    A meaningful improvement over the kit version, I think.
     
    It just takes a few minutes to whip these together.  Fun to build for anyone wanting to try a little scratch building on their Titanic.
     
    I’ve decided to hold off a bit longer on installation… These would be vulnerable as I continue to flip the hull around on various other add-ons.
     
    The starboard after well deck bulwark is up next.
     
    Cheers,
    Evan
  18. Like
    Force9 reacted to Linus Spjutsberg in A video about Naval paint schemes 1775-1815   
    First of all I posted this in the wrong category at first I think. I can't remove it for some reason though. Maybe a mod can help with that? Its in the paint section. 
     
    I have just released a new deep-dive video on how warships were probably painted during the Napoleonic Wars, including a possible history behind the famous Nelson chequer. The research includes firsthand accounts, dockyard notes and letters, official restoration reports, historic naval art, and examples from surviving models.
     
     
     
    It covers the main fleets of the period (British, French, Spanish, American), and includes color swatches, visual comparisons, and what modern restorations like HMS Victory tell us about 1800s paintwork.
     
     
     
    I made this primarily for 1/700 scale wargaming. But I am sure some of the findings should be useful to ship modelers, wargamers, reenactors, and anyone interested in Napoleonic naval history.
     
     
     
    Watch here:
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
  19. Like
    Force9 reacted to bdgiantman2 in Brig Eagle 1814 by bdgiantman2 - 1/48   
    Hello everyone.  I haven't forgotten about this project, despite some inconvenient changes in circumstances. I've had to temporarily shelve Brig Eagle because of change in housing situation and many of my tools had to be put in storage for a few months. However, I am still doing lots of research and making frame templates for this model to work on once housing situation improves. Lately, I've been doing additional comparisons of different ships, this time the American brigs Syren and Oneida. Syren seems more like Brig Eagle in deck layout and overall hull contours (even though Eagle is 20 ft longer than Syren and Syren was a deep water hull with additional deck like European ships HMS Blandford and Le Cygne discussed in Post 41), whereas Oneida would be more followed for rigging and was also a "shallow draft" hull design with just only berthing deck and gun deck like the Eagle was and Niagara.  However, I found one article interesting about Oneida saying she was a slow performer under sail, I am guessing that she may have been top heavy for a ship her size. Will have to do more digging around work schedules. 
     
    Brian D
  20. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from cotrecerf in National- and command flags and officiers seniority of the early US Navy   
    Ahoy again…
     
    Apologies to @Chapman and @Marcus.K. for the confusion… 
     
    I did make a post yesterday in response to Chapman’s important point that Isaac Hull was NOT a commodore during the Guerriere fight depicted in the Cornè painting(s).  
     
    But as I was banging away at the keyboard and eloquently laying out my perspective on the various jacks/pennants/ensigns depicted on the Constitution, I began to realize something...  I’ve been operating from a flawed perspective for many years. I was thinking all along that the jack shown hoisted at the top of the fore topmast was, in fact, a commodore broad pendant that Isaac Hull chose to display during the battle.  
     
    Many years ago, there was an exchange on this forum where this was pointed out by someone who had compared this jack to the broad pennant depicted in another painting showing Bainbridge in the Constitution defeating the Java. He noted the similarities with the arrangement of the stars and ever since I’ve thought Isaac Hull had flown a commodore broad pennant during the Guerriere battle. 
     
    I pulled down my initial post while I tried to find that exchange of ideas from years ago… I think that it was prior to the infamous MSW crash (sorry Chuck) and has been lost forever.  No matter, the reality is that Marcus and Chapman are right – no broad pennant is shown. 
     
    In the purest sense, a jack is ANY thirteen stars against a rectangular blue field. The “normal” rectangular jack of thirteen stars arranged in rows (used to signify a ship at anchor) is shown hoisted at the Mizzen topmast. The circle of stars set against a RECTANGULAR blue field hoisted at the fore topmast is also a jack – just a bit fancier.
     
    During the Java battle, Bainbridge appears to have flown a similar circle of stars on a blue field, but on a TRIANGULAR pennant - meeting the criteria of a Broad Pennant laid out by Marcus in his terrific overview.
     
    In Hull’s longer battle report, he states: “I ordered the Ensign hoisted at the Mizen Peak, and the jack at the fore and MizentopGallant mast head, and a jack bent ready for hoisting at the main…” This aligns exactly with what is shown in the paintings – we see a “fancier” jack at the fore topmast, a commission pendant at the main topmast, and a traditional jack at the mizzen topmast.
     
    The National Ensign shown hoisted at the gaff also aligns to Hull's report, but the one hoisted in the mizzen shrouds does not…
     
    Hull’s report also describes the Guerriere’s hoists: “As we bore up she hoisted an English Ensign at the Mizen Gaff, another in the Mizen Shrouds, and a jack at the fore, and mizentopGallant mast heads.”
     
    I’m wondering if Cornè made a mistake and mixed this up with the Constitution…The ensign hoisted on the mizen shrouds should’ve been shown on the Guerriere instead? Maybe it was too cumbersome (or expensive) to correct once Hull saw the paintings?
    More likely, after seeing the National Ensign hoisted on Guerriere’s mizzen shrouds, Captain Hull decided to match it on the Constitution.  The good bet is that the paintings are accurate.
     
    All of this is my speculation and has no anchor in authoritative confirmation… But it feels right given all the clues and variables in play.
     
    Thoughts?
     
    Also – my cursory research suggests that Isaac Hull was first officially titled a “commodore” late in the war.  The very competent Secretary of the Navy William Jones decided to form a navy board of three senior Captains to serve as an advisory panel and to handle some of the bureaucratic overhead needed to run a professional naval service. Hardly the equivalent of the British Admiralty, but a positive step forward.  Isaac Hull was one of the original commissioners. While serving on the panel, each was entitled to the post of Commodore.
     
    Cheers
    Evan
  21. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from Marcus.K. in National- and command flags and officiers seniority of the early US Navy   
    Ahoy again…
     
    Apologies to @Chapman and @Marcus.K. for the confusion… 
     
    I did make a post yesterday in response to Chapman’s important point that Isaac Hull was NOT a commodore during the Guerriere fight depicted in the Cornè painting(s).  
     
    But as I was banging away at the keyboard and eloquently laying out my perspective on the various jacks/pennants/ensigns depicted on the Constitution, I began to realize something...  I’ve been operating from a flawed perspective for many years. I was thinking all along that the jack shown hoisted at the top of the fore topmast was, in fact, a commodore broad pendant that Isaac Hull chose to display during the battle.  
     
    Many years ago, there was an exchange on this forum where this was pointed out by someone who had compared this jack to the broad pennant depicted in another painting showing Bainbridge in the Constitution defeating the Java. He noted the similarities with the arrangement of the stars and ever since I’ve thought Isaac Hull had flown a commodore broad pennant during the Guerriere battle. 
     
    I pulled down my initial post while I tried to find that exchange of ideas from years ago… I think that it was prior to the infamous MSW crash (sorry Chuck) and has been lost forever.  No matter, the reality is that Marcus and Chapman are right – no broad pennant is shown. 
     
    In the purest sense, a jack is ANY thirteen stars against a rectangular blue field. The “normal” rectangular jack of thirteen stars arranged in rows (used to signify a ship at anchor) is shown hoisted at the Mizzen topmast. The circle of stars set against a RECTANGULAR blue field hoisted at the fore topmast is also a jack – just a bit fancier.
     
    During the Java battle, Bainbridge appears to have flown a similar circle of stars on a blue field, but on a TRIANGULAR pennant - meeting the criteria of a Broad Pennant laid out by Marcus in his terrific overview.
     
    In Hull’s longer battle report, he states: “I ordered the Ensign hoisted at the Mizen Peak, and the jack at the fore and MizentopGallant mast head, and a jack bent ready for hoisting at the main…” This aligns exactly with what is shown in the paintings – we see a “fancier” jack at the fore topmast, a commission pendant at the main topmast, and a traditional jack at the mizzen topmast.
     
    The National Ensign shown hoisted at the gaff also aligns to Hull's report, but the one hoisted in the mizzen shrouds does not…
     
    Hull’s report also describes the Guerriere’s hoists: “As we bore up she hoisted an English Ensign at the Mizen Gaff, another in the Mizen Shrouds, and a jack at the fore, and mizentopGallant mast heads.”
     
    I’m wondering if Cornè made a mistake and mixed this up with the Constitution…The ensign hoisted on the mizen shrouds should’ve been shown on the Guerriere instead? Maybe it was too cumbersome (or expensive) to correct once Hull saw the paintings?
    More likely, after seeing the National Ensign hoisted on Guerriere’s mizzen shrouds, Captain Hull decided to match it on the Constitution.  The good bet is that the paintings are accurate.
     
    All of this is my speculation and has no anchor in authoritative confirmation… But it feels right given all the clues and variables in play.
     
    Thoughts?
     
    Also – my cursory research suggests that Isaac Hull was first officially titled a “commodore” late in the war.  The very competent Secretary of the Navy William Jones decided to form a navy board of three senior Captains to serve as an advisory panel and to handle some of the bureaucratic overhead needed to run a professional naval service. Hardly the equivalent of the British Admiralty, but a positive step forward.  Isaac Hull was one of the original commissioners. While serving on the panel, each was entitled to the post of Commodore.
     
    Cheers
    Evan
  22. Like
    Force9 reacted to Marcus.K. in National- and command flags and officiers seniority of the early US Navy   
    I tried to present you a table with the captains, their nomination as captains and commodores and their birth dates from beginning to about 1815 - and hoped I can manage to make it "sortable" as for example in an excel table. Unfortunatly I am not capable to do so.
    But even with that table you see that some younger captains where higher in rank depending on the captain or maybe the commordore nomination. That of course might have (and did) cause hurt feelings sometimes 😄 .. those gentlemen usually had a strong will 😉 
  23. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from cotrecerf in National- and command flags and officiers seniority of the early US Navy   
    Ahoy Markus -
     
    I think Rodgers did have more seniority than Isaac Hull - your table seems to confirm that.
     
    Here is a wider look at the hoists during the Guerriere battle per the Cornè painting of the close action (commissioned by Captain Hull):

     
    It looks like a fancier version of a Jack is at the fore topmast and the traditional Jack is at the Mizzen topmast.  The Jack appears to have bumped the secondary National ensign to a mizzen shroud.
     
    Note the detail on the fore topmast with the circle of stars against the rectangular blue field:

    We see a sailor fiddling with the jack in the heat of the battle... This is the plucky Irishman Dan Hogan.  Captain Hull called him out by name in his after battle report to emphasize his courage.  During the most intense exchange with Guerriere, Hogan noticed the jack flapping loose and threatening to flutter down into the sea.  Thinking this a bad omen, Hogan clambered up to the tippy top and secured it before working his way back down to the deck to continue at his gun.  The Secretary of the Navy authorized an extra months' pay in recognition of his deed (along with another sailor who had lost a leg).
     
    Hogan continued with the Constitution under Bainbridge and was severely wounded in the Java fight - losing some fingers on both hands.
     
    His story doesn't end there... In 1919 the navy named a Wickes class destroyer the USS Daniel Hogan.  During World War II the ship provided valuable service in the Pacific as a converted minesweeper - including support of the invasion of Iwo Jima.  She was later used as target practice and sunk off the coast of San Diego.  Apparently the wreck is a popular spot for recreational divers.

    Cheers
    Evan
  24. Like
    Force9 got a reaction from J11 in National- and command flags and officiers seniority of the early US Navy   
    Ahoy Markus -
     
    I think Rodgers did have more seniority than Isaac Hull - your table seems to confirm that.
     
    Here is a wider look at the hoists during the Guerriere battle per the Cornè painting of the close action (commissioned by Captain Hull):

     
    It looks like a fancier version of a Jack is at the fore topmast and the traditional Jack is at the Mizzen topmast.  The Jack appears to have bumped the secondary National ensign to a mizzen shroud.
     
    Note the detail on the fore topmast with the circle of stars against the rectangular blue field:

    We see a sailor fiddling with the jack in the heat of the battle... This is the plucky Irishman Dan Hogan.  Captain Hull called him out by name in his after battle report to emphasize his courage.  During the most intense exchange with Guerriere, Hogan noticed the jack flapping loose and threatening to flutter down into the sea.  Thinking this a bad omen, Hogan clambered up to the tippy top and secured it before working his way back down to the deck to continue at his gun.  The Secretary of the Navy authorized an extra months' pay in recognition of his deed (along with another sailor who had lost a leg).
     
    Hogan continued with the Constitution under Bainbridge and was severely wounded in the Java fight - losing some fingers on both hands.
     
    His story doesn't end there... In 1919 the navy named a Wickes class destroyer the USS Daniel Hogan.  During World War II the ship provided valuable service in the Pacific as a converted minesweeper - including support of the invasion of Iwo Jima.  She was later used as target practice and sunk off the coast of San Diego.  Apparently the wreck is a popular spot for recreational divers.

    Cheers
    Evan
  25. Like
    Force9 reacted to Dr PR in National- and command flags and officiers seniority of the early US Navy   
    I found these discussions about seniority and rank in the early U.S. navy very interesting.
     
    Today in the U.S. Navy (well, at least in the 1970s) seniority within a rank was determined by the date of an officer's commissioning. And that leads to a sea story.
     
    The USS Oklahoma City CLG-5 (my ship) was operating in the Gulf of Tonkin at Yankee Station off North Vietnam where the aircraft carriers hung out. The OK City was 7th Fleet flagship, and the current COMSEVENTH Admiral was an airdale (aviator) and liked to hang out with his flyboy buddies. So we sometimes drove the admiral over to the carriers and hung around while he visited.
     
    One morning I went up on deck for Officer's Call at 0800. As I poked my head up through the scuttle I was looking at the bow of an aircraft carrier bearing down on us on our starboard side! Constant bearing and decreasing range - collision course. That is NOT a place any OOD would put his ship! Any vessel crossing on your starboard bow has the right of way (Rules of the Road).
     
    I remembered that we lost a destroyer just a couple years earlier because the OOD turned the wrong way and crossed the carrier's bow. The front of the destroyer forward of the bridge was sliced off and immediately sank, taking all hands (Officer's Quarters) in the bow with it. The stern was saved but was towed to Portland, Oregon, and scrapped. I remember seeing it there in the scrapping yard a few years later. The carrier would have sliced the Okie Boat in half like a knife through butter.
     
    Afterward I asked the fellow on watch as OOD what happened.
     
    Our Captain was greatly impressed with his personal importance (sound familiar?). However, his command of the 7th Fleet flagship was only the second time he had been at sea. Most of his career had been the command of an LMD (Large Mahogany Desk) in Washington, DC. He never drove the ship, and I'm not sure he really knew the pointed end from the blunt end (bow and stern). Even the senior officers in the crew were unimpressed.
     
    When the carrier came along crossing our bow the OOD wanted to turn astern and allow the carrier to pass ahead, which is the normal thing to do. But the Captain stopped him, and told the Quartermaster on watch to get the Seniority List for Captains in the U.S. Navy. All this time the carrier was approaching on a collision course. The Captain told the Quartermaster to determine the carrier Captain's date of rank. Old LMD had the earliest date of rank, so he ordered the signalmen to send a message telling the carrier to give way because he was the senior officer!
     
    The carrier did make a turn to pass behind us and passed dangerously close! We could have all been killed because of that megalomaniac's conceit!
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