CharlieZardoz

So with all that in mind I feel we can come to a few conclusions. If Gosport hadn't been captured then most likely Merrimac, Germantown, Dolphin and Plymouth would have all been put to blockade duty shortly after. Columbus, Delaware, New York and United States would have remained as rotting and useless relics. Pennsylvannia would have stayed in Gosport grounded in the mud serving more as a floating barracks for coastal defense than having any use as a seagoing vessel. And then there is Raritan and Columbia who were most likely being considered to be cut down to sloops same as Cumberland and Savannah. We know Raritan at least was in decent enough shape since after her capture the Confederates did have a plan it seems to convert her (as well as Pennsylvania and some of the rest) to rams similar to Merrimac (see image). However we know that by 1864 all pure sailing warships were essentially retired, either becoming floating barracks/receiving/store ships like Potomac, Brandywine and St Lawrence became or training ships like Savannah, Santee and Sabine. Whether Columbia or Raritan would be the former or the latter depends on the degree of repairs that were needed. With only 2-3 years before their complete antiquation I find it unlikely they would have been cut down to sloops since repairing the old ships was likely not as much of a priority to the navy as building new more useful ships for the war and possibly any work done would have been halted and at best they could have been quickly converted to receiving/store ships the way Potomac and Brandywine were at the beginning of the war. Also BTW here is a nice pic of the stern of USS Independence in her latter days as a receiving/store ship.

Decided to add this here as well. So I did a bit of researching and found some new info regarding United States as well as some of the other ships stationed at Gosport before the burning in 1861. Two illustrations show what the shipyard looked like apparently the Pennsylvania, Germantown, Plymouth and Dolphin we all in good shape ready to sail simply lacked crew to help them escape. Columbus and Delaware were apparently in bad shape off in the "rotten row" section and useless, then you have Columbia, Raritan and United States which were in line for repairs but at the time of the burning partially disassembled, mastless hulks. Seems United States was a former command of one of the officers and she was there largely for sentimental value but sounds like she had stayed mastless and untouched since 1849 and was too decayed to be salvaged. Also to frolick I found that image of Columbia below which is part of a larger engraving and shows United States to the far left which only has 13 ports so yes I guess the illustrator wasn't very discerning of proper port counts. I put arrows to point where the United States is in all the pictures. That one with the capstan in front supposedly shows Pennsylvania in front, then Columbia, Raritan and United States again as you can see all mastless and in ordinary. So now I finally know what state the ships were in by 1861. I took these quotes off the internet from Hamton Roads museum and nnyblog. Enjoy! There were at the Navy Yard at that time, the sloop-of-war Cumberland, 22 guns, in commission, with a full complement of officers and men on board; the sloops-of-war Plymouth, 22 guns, and Germantown, 22 guns, and the brig Dolphin, 6 guns, almost ready for sea; the steam frigate Merrimac, 40 guns, almost ready for sea and undergoing repairs; the line of battleship Pennsylvania, 120 guns, in commission as a receiving ship, with considerable crew on board, and the 74-gun ships Delaware and Columbus, and the frigates Raritan, Columbia and United States, dismantled and in ordinary. The force of sailors and marines on the various vessels and at the Navy Yard was probably about 600, well armed and abundantly supplied with ammunition. The Plymouth, Germantown, Dolphin and Merrimac were lying alongside the wharves and men working on them. The Delaware and Columbus were at a wharf at the southern end of the yard, and might have been considered in "Rotten Row" a term applied to vessels for which the Government no longer has any use. This is an 1853 engraving in the museum's collection of the Gosport Shipyard that appeared in the Boston-based Gleason's Pictorial Room Companion. In contrast to the 1820 print shown in the previous blog post, this illustration shows the Yard for what it was: an active industrial site and military base. The ships in the illustration are interesting mix of old and new ships and is good representation of how the U.S. Navy was slowly changing and modernizing its fleet. On the far right is the White Elephant that was the 120-gun ship-of-the-line USS Pennsylvania. To her left is second generation 44-gun frigate USS Columbia. Her sister ship USS Savannah can be seen on the far left. Also on the far left is the remains of the historic first generation 44-gun frigate USS United States. At this point in her career, the old frigate, best known for her War of 1812 operations, was being allowed to have a quiet retirement.

One thing I would say is avoid the European kits. Many of them are very old and the instructions are not well translated. I mean it's your choice but it may be more challenging without a guide in English. Also look for something which has plenty of logs on this site that way you can learn from those who came before you. Cheers!

Greetings! I chose Sultana by model shipways. Reason being is that MS is very good with instructions, kit accuracy and also practicum's you can download off the internet and this site. Other similar options might be the Phantom, Ballahoo by jotika, some of the modelers central kits mermaid, Norfolk, Port Jackson schooner. A lot of people like Swift or also the Bluejacket revenue cutter kit. I'd recommend solid hull for your first kit but not everyone might agree. It's all a preference really, enjoy! Charlie

Well Constellation, Cumberland and Minnesota (all pictured) had the rounded "sloop style" stern but Sabine was probably more like Congress (also pictured) as well as other Potomac class figates. So i assume Santee and Sabine had the typical 4 window stern and decorations ala Brandywine with a lifebeoat hanging aft so yeah more like broadside guns than pivots but with some mobility tracks like on the Cumberland model. I need to visit that model next time im in norfolk for better pics that what Incould find online. Great images though Sam

I think Tony is correct. You have to account that a portion of people who get into ship modeling (even if they have longed to build one for years, decades, blah) give it a go and just decide it's not for them. There's a certain masochism ... -er discipline that comes from doing detailed work which includes model ships that not everyone is cut out for. Seeing the list posted, yes a few were Connie's, one Bounty yeah but some were beginners kits, two Sultana's and one Armed Virginia Sloop which should be good starting points. So I think maybe including those on your list Chris may be part of the confusion here since those models were definitely the correct choice just the builders lost interest which is going to happen no matter how much or little the builders in question listen to the wisdom of experience.

Hi Sam! My knowledge on this is limited however Talos's image looks correct. I can also offer some images of some other civil war frigates which may be helpful, in this case Cumberland, Minnesota, Congress and Hartford. The guns are fairly visible and I imagine Sabine would have looked similar.

I'm glad they are saving Wavertree since she's a New York staple and deserves a proper restoration. That said how on earth are they going to get the Peking across the ocean in the shape she's in I imagine she'll fall apart no? :S

I would also recommend if possible selling the mamoli fittings alacarte as some of those parts would be of great use to scratch builders

Aye I have some pics of her. A lovely model in its own right no need to add a poop deck on that one. And yes im aware how that sounds lol

Now on that note if I can figure out who did that model of Viper (not from Shipmodel.com im sure), and add that to the pot it'd be another reference material I could work with

Ok so first off Alex regarding these Burrow's plans while I think they are well done I have doubts in my mind whether they accurately represent what the Enterprize would have looked like. According to Chapelle's Baltimore Clipper book the type of schooner that was being produced at that time came in two forms. The more conservative type like Sealark originally the Fly from 1801 and the more extreme type Flying Fish or Shamrock type which is an example of the classic Baltimore Clipper design's like Lynx, Algerine/Numa, event the Pride of Baltimore II of today which were for all intents and purposes enlarged pilot schooners like Swift. It is my understanding based on the reading of Chapelle's and Footner's books on Baltimore Clippers that Enterprise and Experiment were contracted by the navy to be built in the less extreme Sealark/Fly type probably so they could serve as better warships (the Nautilus was a purchase and therefore likely of the lighter more extreme design). Chapelle also adds the plan of an unidentified schooner from 1797 which he felt most closely resembled Enterprize and also shows similar lines to Sealark. Remember most of the clipper/schooners in the war of 1812 were privateers and converted to warships out of necessity not designed to be warships and ultimately were disliked by naval officers for not being able to carry much armarment, provisions etc so it's my assumption that the ships actually ordered to be built by the navy would have all served a similar function and considering Vixen, Syren and Argus as examples these ships were less wedge shaped like traditional Baltmore clippers and more box shaped like brigs. The Enterprize thus would have been something of a crossover "prototype" design still a clipper like the lark but approaching the design that would lead to the heavier Syren/Argus etc. Also in my correspondences with Michael Bosworth who has spent countless years on the subject even attempting a full size reconstruction he believes the Andrea Salvini Venice plans to be conjectural builders plans of Enterprize during her rebuilding in the Mediteranean in 1806. Whether or not those plans are the real deal I am seeing a general trend where if I were to build a model of Enterprize based on the available info I would first use Sealark and the 1797 plan as a reference, then add to it the lines of Vixen and Syren which were for all intents and purposes the next evolutionary step and then add to that the Salvini plans minus the erroneously drawn on bow and stern decorations (probably an attempt to fit her with a beak who knows) and then do the same thing that msjournal PDF does and average the lines out. The problem I have with the Burrows lines is that they don't fit using this system. Burrow's must've felt that Enterprize was of the more extreme type but based on the available info I personally don't agree and if I added that plan to the others they won't line up (I'll still get the plans though just to see of course as I may be wrong ). Look at the images below to see what I mean and note the inclines in the keel

Hi all! Sorry I was at a writers event all day and didn't have a chance to add into the convo. Here's the deal, first frolick I completely agree with you. The Argus for example is a beautiful little ship and I've seen no models of her anywhere even though very detailed plans exist. And there is the Amati kit of Domenica I would like to build one day too. The modeling of Enterprise as a subject is one of those things Chapelle would label as "obstinence" however for me I do find the idea of making an educated guess using detective work as quite a lot of fun (especially for relatively simple designs like schooners with little ornamentation). I mean if Hahn can do it with the Hannah I don't think it that unreasonable to make a fairly decent guess on Enterprize's design especially with the plethora of information available. On that note I recommend reading the link added for msb journal december 2009 which attempts to do just that. Dan Pariser who did the excellent Queen Ann's revenge who I work with at the Brooklyn group here is another example. Enterprize for me appeals to my childhood science fiction side Star Trek and all plus recognizing that the constructo model is essentially garbage, they took the plan for Vixen exactly and added a very non-historically accurate poop deck (which may have existed on the ship during her 1805-1810 incarnation). The number of cannon ports are not accurate to the historical ship and the Vixen was at least 10' smaller. I want to correct that erroneous info and with all the info out there I think it can be done easily. Now on that note I'll explain my processes. https://issuu.com/msbjournal/docs/msbjournal-december-2009

Its the original hence why its so faded. I think its falling apart and they dont want to make it worse

Yeah they only let you look at it. Ill chime in on this convo more in a bit

Id imagine the plan at Mystic would look very similar to this splendid model ship of Numa renamed Algerine built in 1801 but such a ship is probably an example of a slightly larger Nautilus. The crew complained she had inadequate storage and too shallow a draft as naval officers generally didn't like the pilot schooners since they were designed primarily for speed and couldn't be armed too heavily hence why I imagine the slightly larger Enterprise probably was able to accommodate 14-16 guns especially after her rebuilds.

At some point Ill run back and take a look at it, they said it's very faded so may not look as nice as what you have but we'll see.

Hmm good point! I hope I can track the model down looks like some good research was put into it and might be a way to get plans of her made. I think the saddest fact in this craft is all the info that may be lost to time and all that hard work and research should be catalogued and saved somehow.

That's a very logical assumption Russ though I can't seem to find them anywhere in the archives. Unless it's no longer featured of course.

Ha! I went there a few times the first there was massive traffic and couldn't get to the museum the second was after they closed as they keep rather weird hours. They have agreed that I can take pics of the plans with my cellphone I just haven't gotten the right day to go over there and do so. That said while it may be an interesting bit of study, what I am seeing in this draught is a typical clipper/pilot schooner design probably based on La Superior which was built a year after Enterprize and Experiment in the same area. However I believe as I said above that the Enterprize probably had more in common with the Sea Lark/Fly type which was more conservative with more interior space and was something of a prototype to the brigs Syren and Vixen to come rather than a contemporary of Lynx, Flying Fish or Nautilus. That's what the evidence is pointing to anyways.

And at the moment I'm trying to track down the origin of these 3 grainy images I found in my own archives supposedly from 2014 regarding a model of Viper. While of course this would be someone's interpretation I can't for the life of me figure out where I got these images from maybe a MSB Journal forum or somesuch driving me crazy

And here are Flying Fish and Sea Lark so you can see what I mean in comparison.

Just reviving this post again since Im currently looking for research materials regarding the uss Nautilus launched 1799 converted to a brig then caputured by the British to become hms Emulous. No plans have ever been found though descriptions in the Chapelle, Canney and Footner books seem to indicate a ship similar to a Baltimore clipper a very extreme design similar to the Flying Fish almost wedge shaped lower portions. Also curious about the Viper originally the Ferret another pre 1812 schooner/brig with very little recorded info. I'm wondering if any reading resources exist that I may not yet know about perhaps someone attempted some sort of research collection or conjectural drawings or is there is simply no further info. Seems I have most of the books out there dealing with pilot schooners, small craft schooners brigs etc but always happy to find one I dont yet have. It seems that small ships of that time came in two types the Sea Lark which was less extreme and included ships like Enterprize and Experiment eventually leading to ships like Syren, Argus and Vixen. Where the other type more like Baltimore clippers/Pilot schooner gave birth to ships like the Shamrock type Flying Fish, the Nautius and eventually ships like Lynx. Interesting stuff just want to learn more.

It was during the revolutioary war she was scuttled at Newport Bay to prevent the French from sailing into the harbor to help retake the city. At the time she was a troop transport named lord sandwitch 2 and was in pretty poor shape. The owner of the vessles scuttled were compensated by the british admiralty.

Plus the Bristish battlecruises had much lughter armor than their German counterparts. Even the Hood which was possibly the finiest battlecruiser ever built had virtually no armor protection on deck which ultimately led to her tragic end.