Cathead

While I've enjoyed this discussion as a novice in this area, I think Steven nails it at one point in observing that some small details that may or may not be in error act as discussion points for the knowledgeable and will not be noticed by the casual viewer. I certainly have a few on my models and it's actually a thrill when someone notices one in person and it sparks an informed discussion. Well done Steven and carry on!

Sorry for lack of progress, haven't touched the model since my last update. But I did have a pretty cool model-viewing experience recently, getting to see a fantastic scratchbuilt Missouri River rail ferry from ~1870 at a model railroad convention. I wrote a full post about it in the Steamboats and Other Rivercraft General Discussion thread so as not to clog up this one, but here's a teaser image to encourage you to go over there and check the whole thing out. This is at the same scale as my Peerless (1:87).
 

 
Hoping to get back to Peerless soon, but other commitments have had to take priority lately. Thanks for your patience!

While I've enjoyed this discussion as a novice in this area, I think Steven nails it at one point in observing that some small details that may or may not be in error act as discussion points for the knowledgeable and will not be noticed by the casual viewer. I certainly have a few on my models and it's actually a thrill when someone notices one in person and it sparks an informed discussion. Well done Steven and carry on!

Sorry for lack of progress, haven't touched the model since my last update. But I did have a pretty cool model-viewing experience recently, getting to see a fantastic scratchbuilt Missouri River rail ferry from ~1870 at a model railroad convention. I wrote a full post about it in the Steamboats and Other Rivercraft General Discussion thread so as not to clog up this one, but here's a teaser image to encourage you to go over there and check the whole thing out. This is at the same scale as my Peerless (1:87).
 

 
Hoping to get back to Peerless soon, but other commitments have had to take priority lately. Thanks for your patience!

This thread has gone a bit dormant but I'm going to revive it with a very neat model I got to see recently. I was actually attending a model railroad convention, which included some personal layout tours. One fellow, in addition to a spectacular layout, had a scratchbuilt model of a real rail ferry that operated across the Missouri River at St. Charles (near St. Louis) in the early days of railroading. He gave me permission to share some photos here. 

This vessel operated until 1872, when a bridge was completed and its services were no longer needed.
 




This is in HO scale (1:87), the same scale as my current build Peerless (see signature). And for reference, here's one view of his layout, depicting Moberly, Missouri in extraordinary and highly accurate detail. This is on the same rail line as the ferry above served, though the layout is set almost 100 years later.
 

He's been writing a detailed article for the local railroad historical society and I told him about the NRG and encouraged him to submit the article to the NRG journal as well. 
 
I thought you all would enjoy this!
 
 
 

Sorry for lack of progress, haven't touched the model since my last update. But I did have a pretty cool model-viewing experience recently, getting to see a fantastic scratchbuilt Missouri River rail ferry from ~1870 at a model railroad convention. I wrote a full post about it in the Steamboats and Other Rivercraft General Discussion thread so as not to clog up this one, but here's a teaser image to encourage you to go over there and check the whole thing out. This is at the same scale as my Peerless (1:87).
 

 
Hoping to get back to Peerless soon, but other commitments have had to take priority lately. Thanks for your patience!

Sorry for lack of progress, haven't touched the model since my last update. But I did have a pretty cool model-viewing experience recently, getting to see a fantastic scratchbuilt Missouri River rail ferry from ~1870 at a model railroad convention. I wrote a full post about it in the Steamboats and Other Rivercraft General Discussion thread so as not to clog up this one, but here's a teaser image to encourage you to go over there and check the whole thing out. This is at the same scale as my Peerless (1:87).
 

 
Hoping to get back to Peerless soon, but other commitments have had to take priority lately. Thanks for your patience!

Sorry for lack of progress, haven't touched the model since my last update. But I did have a pretty cool model-viewing experience recently, getting to see a fantastic scratchbuilt Missouri River rail ferry from ~1870 at a model railroad convention. I wrote a full post about it in the Steamboats and Other Rivercraft General Discussion thread so as not to clog up this one, but here's a teaser image to encourage you to go over there and check the whole thing out. This is at the same scale as my Peerless (1:87).
 

 
Hoping to get back to Peerless soon, but other commitments have had to take priority lately. Thanks for your patience!

This thread has gone a bit dormant but I'm going to revive it with a very neat model I got to see recently. I was actually attending a model railroad convention, which included some personal layout tours. One fellow, in addition to a spectacular layout, had a scratchbuilt model of a real rail ferry that operated across the Missouri River at St. Charles (near St. Louis) in the early days of railroading. He gave me permission to share some photos here. 

This vessel operated until 1872, when a bridge was completed and its services were no longer needed.
 




This is in HO scale (1:87), the same scale as my current build Peerless (see signature). And for reference, here's one view of his layout, depicting Moberly, Missouri in extraordinary and highly accurate detail. This is on the same rail line as the ferry above served, though the layout is set almost 100 years later.
 

He's been writing a detailed article for the local railroad historical society and I told him about the NRG and encouraged him to submit the article to the NRG journal as well. 
 
I thought you all would enjoy this!
 
 
 

Why thank you, Mark. Unfortunately, they are going to be on the weather side, so I think Doreltomin's point stands. However, perhaps a flick of the rudder(s) could take the load off for a short time even if they were weather shrouds. [And of course if they were just completing a tack and hadn't yet got under way, these guys tightening the last weather shroud could well be believable].
 
Tartane, yes, I'm still going to be using lateen sails. I've looked carefully at your arguments and they aren't convincing enough to make me change. I realise that you have the best intentions in making your suggestions, but I have done plenty of research of my own and I'm satisfied that I'm making the right decisions. What may have been the practice for a chebec in the 18th/19th century is by no means necessarily what was done in the 12th century, and I believe I have ample evidence to back me up.
 
Theoretical reconstructions will always be a matter of interpretation of the available evidence, and our interpretations are different. I think the best policy is for us to agree to disagree. I'm not really willing to engage in any further discussion on these points, as I find it's distracting me from the build.
 
Steven

Doreltomin, you're probably right. But I'm not going to carve another figure - the mistake will just have to remain for eagle-eyed people like you to spot and comment on 
 
Tartane, thank you for your input, but despite your belief that the halyards in this configuration would foul the sails, that nonetheless seems to be the way they did it. Note the position of the halyards on these two 2-masted ships  - they lead to the black triangle at the top of each mast and around the white dot (the sheave) and back down again.

Zibaldone da Canale  early 14th century
 
And the same applies with these ones
                  
Bestiary Morgan Library ms4 59 fol 18r North Italy c. 1290          1232 - 1261 Bohemund: William of Tyre's Histoire d'Outremer, BL Yates Thompson 12 f.58v
And these 
  
1332 Italy, KBR ms. 9404-05 - Liber secretorum Fidelium Crucis       St Ursula, Church de San Francisco de Palma de Mallorca 1st quarter 14th century
 
And as confirmation that this is not just artistic invention,  multi-masted lateeners and setee-rigged vessels in the 20th century continued to do so:
   

I am quite prepared to believe your contention that chebecs did it differently, but there  is sufficient evidence that this was the way it was done in mediaeval times, and has continued to be done this way in many vessels for centuries in between.
 
Steven
 

After a lively and instructive  debate on rigging, back to build progress, .
 
I've now had the opportunity to add some more of my carved figures, plus the knights are now in place and rigged for the fore and middle masts. I have yet to finalise the halyards, but the tackle at the lower end is sorted.


For the mizzen mast, there is not enough structure below decks to hold a knight, so I've made a block to be fixed to the deck beams instead.




Halyards temporarily threaded through the sheaves of the fore and middle calcets. I made the halyard double - I couldn't figure out how there'd be two sheaves in the calcet otherwise. Happy to be corrected, but now that I've committed myself I'm not going to change it - not on this model, at any rate, but maybe for future ones.

I think the grab-rings on the hatch covers are still a bit too  shiny, so I'm planning to weather them a bit more.
And just for something cute (and for people inspecting the model to spot and comment on), two crewmen tightening up a shroud - one pulling down on the shroud, the other pulling the lanyard tight. I had to drill tiny holes for the ropes to go through.
  
  

I don't think I mentioned earlier the upper fixing for the shrouds. Based on this carving

and a very instructive picture kindly sent by Woodrat when I was doing my dromon, I've fixed them like this:
  

That's about it for the time being. More to come when I've done a bit more.
 
Steven
 
 

I've come across this discussion a bit late, but that's probably a good thing, as I've had the opportunity to read arguments for and against the lateen interpretation.
 
Tartane, I appreciate your input and suggestions, as I do those of the others who've posted on this subject. I've also done a lot of research on the rigging and configuration of lateen sails, not only on this build but on my dromon of some years ago. And though I don't regard myself as an expert by any means, I feel I have a good understanding of the rig. 
 
Of the mosaics I posted at the beginning of this log, only one is actually under sail, and even that is having the sails furled. There are two other ship mosaics of this series in San Marco, plus one from another similar series, but two have the sails completely furled,
  
and the other (from the other series) shows pretty definite triangular sails.

Although the classic image of a lateen sail is triangular, with a sharply angled yard:

The sail can take many configurations, including with the yard all but horizontal, depending on the angle of the ship in relation to the wind:
  
  
and see also 1:23 to 1:30 in this video:
 
 
Though the yards in the mosaics are mostly not far from horizontal, I am nonetheless satisfied that they depict lateen, not square rig. The first picture in my log could be interpreted as almost any type of sail, but the second seems (at least to me) to taper to a point at the bottom - in other words, a triangle. This is supported by the multitude of mediaeval representations of lateen rigged Mediterranean round ships.
 
     
     
I am not trying to claim that all Mediterranean ships in the mediaeval period were lateen-rigged - particularly after the cog began to reach there from the Atlantic - but there is certainly ample evidence for my interpretation of the sails of my Venetian ship to be lateen.
 
Tartane, I do appreciate your posting the picture of the knevel. I had been puzzling over how to  belay the shrouds, and though I've already committed myself now, I find the knevel to be a simple and practical apparatus, and better than what I came up with myself - to the point that I wish I'd seen it earlier as I would have used it on this model. The wooden toggle that joins the shroud to the rope loop has been found time and time again in marine archaeology from ancient times through mediaeval, and is still use on Mediterranean lateeners today.
 
Yes, I'm doing exactly as you pointed out when tacking, that the leeward shrouds are loosened to allow the sail to belly out and take full advantage of the wind. I mentioned this in an earlier post.
 
Steven
 
 
 

I am happy to remove the word "dead". The rest I leave to the moderator. This is an open forum and disagreement is allowed as long as it is polite so maybe dead wrong is a poor choice of words.
Woodrat
 

I know the history of the Skuldelevs, that`s why I have choosen the model kit. Unfortunately I found the 1:20 kit later than the new version called "Roar Ege". The builds differ completely in the way of being build (even if I have somewhat choosen the Skuldelev way to build the Roar Ege). I have seen the replica which was built in 1982 but decomissioned in 2007 and is now on display. In 2017 it was again rebuild as Estrid Byrding. Skuldelev 1 was rebuild in 1999 as Ottkar. Skuldelev 6 was rebuild in 1998 as Kraka Fyr and in 2010 with a name I can´t recall. Skuldelev 5 has been rebuilt in 1990 / 1991 as Helge Ask.
Good luck in finding the time to build the amazing little ship. I´m always impressed what the vikings could archive with this little ships compared to some bigger ships from the other countries like England or Spain.
 
Schöne Grüsse an meine gebürtige Heimat (Düsseldorf).
 
Micha 

Hi Johnny, thank you for this nice comment. I have to say, afterwards, since I did it the way I did I must say. I wouldn´t do it again this way. I would use the jig as I did again for sure, that idea is much better than the way BB explains it to do. The two sides build and then glue it together is not ideal. The jig I build works well but I would next time do both sides at the same time to maintain equality in the planking. I noticed slight differences in the sides right now where the lines look ok in each side, but when looking at the ship from above you see that they are not exactly mirrored. But that is the learning effect and that is why this LOG might be helpful to others, to learn by my mistakes.
Again, I would always build the ship again with a hig as I did, not both sides separately, but then I would advise to plank both sides at the same time to adjust the equality of the planks on both sides.
 
 
Thank you for this kind and polite words Johnny, I really appreciate that. They help me to keep my mind on it (it can be challenging as it is my first wooden build) and gives me a confidence boost.
 
Micha

* Chapter Four *
 
The Orgy of Super Glue or How to do the Port Side  and then start with Starboard Side
 
Hello my fellow model builder, here we have now finished one side (I think it should be port). I started now with the second side (should be therefore starboard) I hope since I’m not yet sure where the bow and where the stern is (have to check the instructions again) but I’m certain that I’m correct with my sides.
 


 
Here some closer looks to the planking (stern)…
 


Center part of the hull…
 

 
 
and the bow…



 
Much closer look to the bow and how the planks came together.
 


 
Also a look inside the ship from stern…
 


 
to the Center of the ship (mast support)…
 

 

to the bow…
 


 
Unfortunately do my planks not end up equally so I have to sand it nicely up. Also some of the planks are warping badly and the glue seems not to do a proper job…
 

 


 
Starting in starboard with the planking…
 

 
trying to align them properly with the mirrored plank (part 11) on the port side.
 
Micha

* Sideline *
 
The 1:20 Skuldelev or How I would have guessed the proper Way to do it
 
Today I got the Billing Boats kit No. 456 called “The Skukdelev Ships” in the scale 1:20. I can’t find when this was launched or distributed but it seems quite a long time ago. The set seems complete (when I check the content of the box with the manual. The approach to build it is complete different to the one from the Roar Ege (but most like my approach of the Riar Ege 😂). However, I paid GBP 30.00 for the set since the seller couldn’t get rid of the set and just wanted it off the shelf. So I took it. I won’t build the kit before the Roar Ege is finished and maybe hit even before murph scratch build is finished. But yeah, a nice kit to have on my shelf now. Looking forward to it.
 

 
Micha

Thank you Paul, will give it a go later today. I hope they don´t have their own mind - I would hate that, but yeah, will check it out and maybe attach the bigger ones like 7A / 7F and 5A / 5F. Might give the planking even a bit more stability, it´s a bit wobly between the molds.
 
Micha

Hey Micha, looking good. If you haven’t already, now that you have a few planks attached on each side maybe you could flip it over and check to see how the notched frames sit against them. Perhaps even attach them. These plywood planks seem to have a mind of their own.😀

* Chapter Four *
 
The Planking is my Crux or How a Plan might not work out

Since I couldn’t make out a proper jig for upside down frame (spine with the molds) I misused two cans of my preferred beverage (hope everyone will forgive me, especially the manufacturer of the drink). 
 
I´m not sure why Billing Boats has chosen this strange way to put the planks onto the sheets the way they did but it doesn’t make sense to me and a proper description how to put the planks on is not existing at all. There is no understandable reason why all planks except one are put on the sheets in the same way around, except the first (starting plank which immediately is attached to the spine) is the opposite way around.
 
So I cut it out, turned it around and glued it to the frame (even if I’m not sure it’s the right way around now), at least the end quoted as F is now glued to the end of the spine stated with the F. The next plank is the way round it’s quoted in the plan, F to F and A to A. Which somehow make the first plank looking a bit odd. Don’t know, I just go on right now. 
 

 
I would appreciate if someone notices a fault or wrong doing to mention it to me so I might be still able to change it now before it’s way to late to change anything.  Thank you guys for being my eyes here ^^
 
Micha 

Thank you Bob, I need all the kind words right now as a boost . I didn´t expect it that complicated (but my own fault, to chose the wrong kit from the wrong manufacturer) but I love the challenge, keeps my brain working and fresh lol
 
I will try my best to make it a nice and good looking model but I don´t make nay promises
 
Micha

* Chapter Four *
 
Change of Plan - The Jig needs Adjustments
 
Since you good folks suggested I should turn the ship around to put the planking on I needed another approach for my self made (crappy) jig. I took two sticks and took the molds (4 and 6A / 6F) off the spine again. Then I glued the molds in a 90 degree angle to the sticks, beginning from the center mold (4), waited till dried up then glued on mold 6A again in 90 degree angle and the required 73 mm from part 4. After this was dried I glued mold 6F also 73 mm from part 4 onto the 2 sticks. After everything was dried up I checked the distances between the molds on the sticks and on the bottom (in real on the top). 


 
Then I put the molds 9A and 9F loose onto the sticks in 103 mm each from molds 6A and 6F. Since they will bend the beam slightly I didn’t glue those on, I just wanted to make sure the beams are not too short. 
Then I attached the entire skeleton onto the spine in the jig. Put the molds 9A and 9F in place and pressed the skeleton in place with the molds clasping onto the spine with the catches on the bottom. Mold 4 fits in snuggly onto the mast support and keeps the skeleton secured in place. 
 

 
Now I have to build a jig or block that lifts the entire build up enough that the stem and stern are not touching the ground. That will be my next step, so that I can turn the entire build upside down to put the planking on. 
 
Micha

Very nice update on the Caroline, Brian.  As always, your modeling is clean, crisp and beautifully detailed.  Excellent!
 
Gary

If cutting an insert into the base is too hard, Brian could also make a veneer sheet the same thickness as the mirror and cut the mirror shape out of that, which is almost certainly easier to do than routing out the base with a laser or regular router.