Keith Simmons

I had a similar problem when using Titebond even though I use hardwoods on my ships. I started using Aleene's Tacky glue and it was less problematic pus it has a better initial hold. Might be worth a try. good luck.

Go Popeye Go,
 
  I like the hull shape, good job mate....
 
  Will keep an eye skinned for further posts....
 
 Keith

I hope you'll test it and let us know, Mike.  Blackwood is/was supposedly the original "ebony" a century or two ago.  I have no knowledge other than what I read.   
 
As for testing... when done, clean your blades and tools with acetone (outside of course).  Or, if you'll using the wood and need cutting it again, label the blade and keep it for ebony only.   I've found it leaves a residue on the blades and transfers that residue to other woods.  

I'm so pleased with the "painting with wood" on my Pegasus that I'm all gung-ho for doing the same on my Morgan.  My initial thought was for the black areas (upper hull planking, part of stem and cap rails) to use pear that is stained black.  Now I'm think about using African Blackwood instead.  
 
The black-stained pear looks really nice, but it tends to hide the grain (at least the stain I'm using).  I'm thinking about going all natural with my Morgan - holly for the white areas, boxwood for the ochre areas, and something like maple for the deck. You see a little grain with those woods, so I'm thinking African Blackwood might look fantastic.  It sounds like it's less difficult to work as ebony, and possibly less of an allergy inducer.  It's a decent amount of area to cover, but pretty limited to things that aren't too difficult to craft.
 
Am I crazy?  Has anyone else here used African Blackwood on the builds that can share their views on it?  Thanks!
 
 

I actually use my mill a lot.  For fine drilling I use the Sensitive Drilling Attachment, and for regular drilling I use the z-axis hand wheel.  I stopped using my mini drill press, so I sold it.
 
I recently used my Rotary Table and the Tilting Angle table to produce the mast tops for my Paragon (modified Mayflower).
 
                    
 
I still consider myself a novice, since there is so much more to learn.

I realize that not too many modelers have a milling machine, but for those lucky enough to have one, I would venture to say that it is a very versatile and useful tool for scratch builders as well as those who want a bit more accuracy in cutting material.
I am constantly learning to use mine with new ideas for fixtures and techniques. Perhaps we can share some ideas on this thread.
 
 
A couple years ago there was a thread dealing with this subject and I like to revamp that:
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/4320-milling-work-and-miniature-jig-making/page-2?hl=+milling%20+machine.
 
Let me show you a few things I have done to and with my machine.
When I first got it, I wanted to learn the basics and made this aluminum slitting fixture. It can be used to make slots or even cut planks. Now I don’t use it too much anymore, because it takes a while to set up and takes away space on the table.
 
 
I have a four inch vise that is very accurate. Using the parallels underneath this piece of pear, I was able to machine this log of gun carriages. After the milling I cut slabs that were only 0.050 inch thick.
 
  
When I decided to make my own gratings, I had to make a decision about square or round holes. After some experimenting I gave up making square holes. Now I find it hard to tell if the grating has square or round holes (when viewed a few inches or more away). My point here is that I placed the grating material on a piece of plywood that was clamped to the table and used the mill’s x-y table movements to accurately drill the holes.

Since then I don’t use the metal clamps that you see in the picture above. I made a number of wooden clamps and blocks that do a better and safer job. 

Here is a set up using those clamps. It was part of my cross section work.

 
More on the next post.

 

Nice curvature, Denis. It will be more nice when you apply "story of your life"
 

Hang in there, Denis.  I think sanding is the "story of all our lives" in this hobby.           And no, it won't be any of us calling the guys in the white coats with the butterfly nets because the next person they could be picking up could easily be one of us.       

sorry I'm late..........it's hard to type with CA on my finger tips.   I had inverted  "sticky Keys".    I've had to stop many times during the entire process to clean off my fingers........immersing them in water helped somewhat.....brake parts cleaner works well too.   I began by doing both sides at the same time......but I ended up concentrating on one side,  once I gained momentum.   starting at the keel,  I worked my way down from there......trying to let it  'fan out'  as much as it wanted.   the trouble here,  is it didn't.....it wanted to run close to the bulkhead.   when I got to the point where I was going to close the gap at the bow stem....I lapped it onto the hull side.   the gap here was filled in with material,  making sure that it was installed at an angle.  the hull side was prepped to receive the planking,  by shaving it down just a little,  giving it a curved  'dip'.   as more planks were run,  it was the same.......making sure that they followed the plank next to them.
 

 
for the last plank,  you see that it will be rather narrow.   no matter.......extra wood will be left there,  since quite a bit of sanding is going to happen along this line.   I know it looks rather scary........I didn't quite get what I wanted,  but I got most of it.   just as you described Mobbsie,  I wanted to give the bow sort of an inverted flare  "V"  ...along the lines of what would be seen on power boats.......including PT boats.   I have model magazines that contain quite a few articles about PT boats......
....one day perhaps  {I do have that Marine Model kit still in the closet}.
 

 
for the final section of planking....here I shaved down this small area and sanded it flat.   this is to be the apex of the curvature.   along this hull line,  it will need a lot of sanding and shaping...I'll do some of it as I go along.   then I can do the other side and match what I've done here.
 

 
for almost the entire assembly......I've used CA.......I can't even guess how many of those small tubes I went through.  as I was doing the other side,  the excess wood was cut off and some sanding was done.   here is what it looks like at this point.
 

 

 
it kinda hard to see the contour with the plank lines and brabble running interference.  once I can get a picture of it with resin and primer.........then it can be seen more easily.   so now it on with the other side.
 

 
I get this one brand of CA at Wal-Greens......been using it for quite some time.  I was running out,  so while we were in the local Wal-Mart,  I picked up their brand.    soooooooooo not the same!   GRRRRRRRR!   that stuff wouldn't stick to save my life!.........meant for longer holding time.   I have few clamps that can do some of the tasks I require....you see,  I've been reading that book......."Karma Sutra"........Hmmmmmmmmm.......don't know if I can get my hull to do THAT!!!!
 
so anyways.....when it was dry enough,  the excess was cut off and some sanding was done.  again,  it is a little hard to see,  with everything going on on the surface.
 

 

 
I took a couple of pictures this morning without the light........you may see it a little better.
 

 

 
now it will get more sanding {story of my life}
 
 

that might be the way to go Greg {and Patrick}.   I thought of making a couple of ribs to stick in there.   one consideration
 
you forgot the dynamite John........perhaps even a blowtorch.   although an alteration like that might be fun     two considerations
 
I thought of that as well Mobbsie........now that would be a cool design.   .........less dynamite too  
 
thanks John.......very kind to say,  but I goofed.  gonna take more than a can 'o spinach ta get me outa this one.
 
the chine parts were key..........and I omitted them.   well......I'll just have to make the best of it.   I haven't scrubbed a hull yet.
 
it's been a couple of weeks  {I think}  since I last posted......these late answers are proof of that.   I really haven't had much to report.....been a little busy on other matters.   I am on vacation this week end.   I have a couple other chores to do,  but I should see some table time.  in fact, I saw a little yesterday.  looking at my mess {thank the model god the admiral doesn't seem to mind},  I tried to make some sense of the hull.  I figured that I might as well start working from the stern to the bow.........and so I did.   I filled in the last two segments of the aft.
 

 
then,  after sanding the transom smooth,  along with the planking surrounding it,  I took a piece of 1/32 flat stock and traced out the transom.   this was cemented over the transom to hide all that Frankenism.
 

 
when it was dry,  it was sanded to shape.......I only saw one tiny gap that need to be fixed.  it looks much better now.
 

 
I need to do this now to the inside cockpit bulwark and the cabin bulkhead.   first.......I'll fix the hull problem....then I can work on the cabin.   if you saw my initial idea......you'da thought I got a bad can 'o spinach........or it was definitely laced with something.  but I came to my senses and ripped it out.   I began to plank the bow starting at the keel........seems like a better approach.   I may make up a couple pairs of bulkheads and close the hull inward.
 

 
I have gone further with it........more progress soon  

Jud,
 
I'm with Chuck...   back in drag racing days, i used to get a lot of "I'm going to build a car.. this will be cool".   They soon depleted their budget, and had no idea what to do next.   There's a learning process in anything.  Some things have a steeper learning curve than others.   Fair warning should be given.
 
Let's face it, wood is a totally different critter than plastic or metal models.  To open a kit and suddenly see nothing but a pile of wood and few castings with instructions that say "Now plank the hull".. "Got that done, add the masts and rigging, next".  is overwhelming. 

Jud,
 
    I strongly disagree.  I take Chris' original post for what it is, a warning.  I provide the same warning anytime I speak to a perspective modeler, whether it be at a club meeting or at our Ship Modeling booth at the county fair.  Most people don't realize how difficult building a wooden ship is and how many sub-skills need to be developed before you can do a bang up job on a complicated model. 
 
    As seasoned modelers, we owe it to them to give them reasonable advice. 

I apologize Chris as I am probably one of those members who misunderstood what you were trying to do with the thread.
 
I think another big issue that causes the new builder to get in over there heads is how they are introduced to the hobby or ships in general. They see the Constitution, Victory, Cutty Sark etc. and want to build them because those are the ones in abundance and available to see in person. The inspiration is set to that level of wow! and it is hard from that point to want to build a much simpler ship. Many of the simpler starter kits are of less famous ships and as such they get fewer people who even know about them much less want to build. Then as I have seen others say, "canons are cool!" As a kid inspiration is going to come from that 100 gun man of war and not a small 0-4 gun vessel.
 
I think that to help encourage first time builders to choose a simpler ship to start from is that we need to find ways to promote those smaller, simpler vessels. Just in the 6 month I have been apart of this community my knowledge and exposure to other ships as expanded immensely. I'm not completely sure the best ways of doing this but perhaps one idea would be to somehow find ways of featuring beginner kits and make them appealing. Possibly by listing their history or significance to a particular country by talking them up much like we see on the more popular ships. Even perhaps create a section on here that is specifically for beginner ships so that new comers to the hobby can see other first time builder's work so that they feel more comfortable sharing their work and not feel like their skills are sub par when all they see are some of the great works that are on here.

At the risk of stirring the pot further, I think some members are missing the point I intended to make. The original post wasn't aimed at modelers who have lost interest in a particular build but are still active in the hobby. Many of us have such models in limbo somewhere. Heck, I have three of them myself. The intended audience is brand-new potential builders, many who are entering the hobby with palpable enthusiasm, as evidenced by the following quotes culled from several dead build logs:
 
 
These folks chose the hobby after much consideration, were eager to get started, and hoped to continue beyond their first build. But they didn't. As I stated previously, these builders never got past the hull. Most of them barely got started, and most are now inactive. Is it possible they finished, but maybe didn't post progress for whatever reason? Sure - but you guys know as well as I do that that is unlikely.
 
The title of this thread says cautionary tale. That's really the purpose of the thread -- to get new modelers to stop, think about what ship they may be considering building, examine the abundant evidence of newbies attempting too much in a first-time project, and get them to seriously think about setting their sights a little lower. Perhaps even lower than a Sultana or AVS -- those are still pretty complex projects, even if they are marketed as beginner models. How many of those modelers might still be in the hobby if they had exercised some caution, backed away from the big three-masters, and started with a dinghy, longboat, or small sailboat? Am I saying that a newcomer can't try to tackle the ship of their dreams? Of course not. But they should know going in that if they do in fact finish it, they'll be a member of a very small club.

I am guilty of not finishing some of my kits. In fact there are a few of them listed in my signature as unfinished. One of them I do not feel bad about as it is a joint projects with a friend while I was still in the Navy and is now awaiting his retirement. The others either had issues with the kit, the instructions or I just lost interest in finishing them. The fact that they are plastic kits also has something to do with it as I have grown to love wooden ships more. I still may sit down and finish them one day. 

I have a theory that may apply to Chris's post. When I started building my first log, I came to conclusion that my boat will never look as good as most of the builds on this site no matter what I did at the time. This led me to find myself at times thinking, "If I do this, I'll never be able to post the pics on MSW". Now that I have four kits under my belt I feel a lot better about posting to build logs. Unfortunately I do not have the time these days like I did 4 years ago to work on my builds. My Scotland Kit is over two years old now, still trying to get one whole day to sit down and get going on it.
 
These people may have finished their boats but chose not to continue the log because they felt it wasn't good enough to share. Some of the people on this forum are 30 plus year veterans at this hobby and they make such beautiful ships that it may drive away novices from posting.
 
Who knows where these build logs have gone, just saying my theory could be valid along with people just losing interest.

Dave,
 
We have had some relatively new builders do the Syren.  Chuck did an excellent practicum/instruction booklet which I think is still available on the Model Expo site for download.   It's not a beginner kit but the instructions do go a long way in helping the builder visualize the build as you go.
 
I'm very much on the fence about recommending this one, only because it has a lot of repetitive tasks... guns, masts, rigging, etc.  

Certainly there are many factors (time, ability, etc) that contribute to whether one will 'stick with' this hobby, and many of those can't be quantified until you get going.  But I do agree that the choice of kit can sometimes be a 'make or break' decision.
 
I really, really want to build the Syren.  But I think it is just a little beyond my reach at the moment, so I'm picking something else for my next build.
 
I'm still new to this - I picked up ship building about 9 months ago.  For my first build, I chose the Phantom - solid hull.  This meant no hull or deck planking, no square rigging, and no gunports or guns to build.  I chose it so that I could focus on basic skills - reading plans, cutting/sanding/shaping, and rigging.  I made a lot of mistakes.  For my second build, I'm building the Bluenose.  This adds basic POB stuff (keel, bulkheads, etc), hull and deck planking, more detail.  But I chose this particular ship because the hull is painted - my first attempt at hull planking is likely to turn out a little 'less than great', so I can learn hull planking but still use wood filler and paint to end up with a good build.
 
I was tempted to jump right into the Syren next (even had it in my shopping cart on the Model Expo site at one point), but I decided to do another build before I take that plunge, to get some experience with square rigging and gunports.
 
If you're getting into the hobby for the long haul, it doesn't hurt to spend some time working your way up.  You learn valuable skills that will pay off when you finally get to that 'big build'.  You also get a great sense of accomplishment from having successfully completed something (and that is much easier to reach with a 'beginner build').
 
All that being said, you have to be interested in the ship you are building.  It has to catch your eye.  If honestly nothing catches your eye except the Constitution, you might as well try.  Better to try something and have it fizzle out than to not try at all.  But if a first time builder is willing to start small, I do think it will pay off in the end.

Jud, I think you misunderstand my motivation for starting this thread. I'm not trying to 'judge' anyone, and I'm not saying a beginner can't complete a complex model (we've all seen it done). But in the pages of MSW 2.0, its predecessor MSW 1.0, the old Dry Dock Models forum, and the anecdotal evidence provided by manufacturers, we have overwhelming evidence that newbies regularly attempt more model than they are capable of handling. We don't send first-time skiers to the black diamond runs, and we don't let first-year medical students do heart transplants -- the same principle applies to ship models: try something commensurate with one's skills. I'm really not trying to turn people away -- I'm trying to help them make a choice of first model that will increase their chance of staying in the hobby. Success breeds more success. And haven't we all read about the much-bemoaned demise of the hobby? Hundreds (quite literally) of people quitting their attempts at building certainly doesn't alleviate that problem.

Jud,
 
You and Chris raise valid points.   There are those who start a build log, realize they're in way over their heads and give up.  There are others, who start a log, realize they're in way over their heads and the put that log on hold and get a simpler kit.    One of the topics over the years has been about the number of models, unfinished, sitting in an attic or basement because the builder didn't know how to do what was needed.   
 
There's two articles in the article database that explain "how to select a kit" and "what to expect in a kit".  They've been offered many time to new members.   Both articles have great advice.
 
Going from plastic to wood is a big step.  Similar to going from replacing some items on your car to building one from the ground up.   Same principles, just different skill set needed.
 
In my case, my first ship was Wasa (from Billings).  I opened the kit, read the directions such that they are, and put it away.  I went to the hobby shop and bought a simple battle station and AL's Scottish Maid.    I learned. It's humbling to realize you don't know how to do things.   When those two models wiere done, I did the Wasa.  
 
We here at MSW have also seen the same thing in scratchbuilding.  Look at the logs of models never finished.   Even the starters like the Triton cross-section.   
 
It's tough call on things in this hobby.   MSW is based on the premise that everyone wants everyone else to succeed also.  Mutual support.   Sometimes, the advice may seem harsh, but it's voices of experience that give it. And they give it in context of "how to learn".  Some new builders do carry on and turn out a nice model but they are usually reading other logs and listening to those who have built the model.  And most would tell you, they should have started with something easier.   
 
My apologies for being long winded.

This has always been a tough decision whit model building in general. My first ship build was the Constitution. It was Revell's plastic 1:96 scale kit. Granted I had been modeling for about 15 years at that point so I was not new to model building, nor complicated builds. I do admit though that there were times when I thought I had bit off more than I could chew with that kit. Even with the kits two piece hull and very good instructions, it is still a very daunting kit to someone who had never built a ship before and maybe more than I should have undertaken. That being said, it came out beautiful two years later and sits proudly in my dad's house as it was him I built it for.
 
Now that being said, I was not interested in building other ships at the time. That one was undertaken as a gift for my dad as he was not able to finish his model of the Constitution and it had become too badly damaged to salvage. Had I started building a simpler ship but without the motivation to build it other than "this looks fun" I may not have wanted to push through to completion when I hit those hard places. I learned a lot on that first build and every time I managed to struggle my way through to completion of a part I would (and still do) sit back and admire it for a long time. This is where my love of ship building was born. Seeing that majestic ship come together and knowing that I made that happen created a love of this hobby and filled that void that other models were not able to do.
 
I know my story is in the minority of first time ship builders. I also know that models are put on hold for many reasons other than burnout. My dad's had to stop because he had me, was going to college, working 2 jobs and then my mom died. He has built models since but never had the time to complete his Constitution before the ship got ruined. A friend of mine from the Navy has a great model railroad layout that never got completed since he was constantly getting deployed and now is getting ready to retire and move so he has to disassemble it. Just recently my own build has stopped as I found out last week my dog of 11 years has cancer, no way to fix it and we had to put him down yesterday. My wife and I are still devastated over this loss.
 
I think it is wise of us as a community of experienced builders to encourage first timers to choose easier kits as it is a shame to see so many unfinished builds out there. However, I do not think we should discourage them if they choose to take on a harder one to start. Instead, be sure to constantly follow their builds and try to offer help and suggestions on how to get through those tough areas when they are reached. We do not always know what outside circumstances may cause a build to stop.

Dear prospective ship modeler,
 
Welcome! If you're reading this, it's probably because you are ready and raring to get started on a first ship model. But before you do, allow me to share the following with you.
 
We get a lot of first-time builders on this forum. People who are eager to build a first ship model are attracted to the hobby for a variety of reasons. Perhaps you were captivated by a stunning model of the USS Constitution or the HMS Victory. Maybe you have a beloved relative who was a modeler. Or it could be that you just have a love of the sea, even if you've never sailed on anything larger than a rowboat. All of us came to MSW with similar motivations. Those of us who have been at this for a while not only love the hobby, but also love passing along our experience to new builders. It's a special treat to see a new modeler persevere through the joys and sorrows (and often tedium) of building a ship model and arrive successfully at the end of a build with a finished model to be proud of.
 
Unfortunately, many of those eager new members also turn out to be last-time builders as well. There are lots of reasons why a first-timer might give up. Building a nice ship model requires the learning of many new skills, a not inconsiderable amount of tenacity, and usually a significant time investment. Some new modelers get bored, others get overwhelmed, and some get overtaken by things like career changes, cross-country moves, babies, sudden illnesses -- that life stuff we all have to deal with occasionally. We understand those things happen. We get it.
 
This post, though, is written for a particular kind of first-time modeler: the modeler who takes on more ship then they can handle. Unfortunately, this kind of modeler is all too common. Bewitched by a clipper ship or sailing man-of-war, this kind of newbie believes that they can jump right in and build something similar.
 
Allow me to use an analogy. I'm not a pilot, but I love old warbirds. Suppose I go to an airshow and, having been awed by the spectacle, decide to go out and buy a P-51 and take her up for a few high-g maneuvers. All with no flying experience, mind you. I don't have to tell you how that first flight is likely to end up.
 
Sadly, many of the newcomers to MSW have a similar experience with model ships. They come brimming with pluck and determination, convinced that they can build a Constitution or Victory. In most instances, these bright-eyed neophytes wind up like the over-zealous new P-51 owner -- dead. Well, unlike the pilot, the would-be modelers are probably still alive, but their dreams of nice model ships have certainly gone to a better place.
 
Now, before I go any further, allow me to make a few things perfectly clear. Am I saying that a new modeler should never attempt a complicated model or that newcomers never finish such models? No, I'm not saying that. There are a few modelers who have attempted such projects and completed them, so it is certainly possible. But those modelers are very few in number. And we don't have any rules about what kind of model you can or can't build around here. If you absolutely, positively have to have a crack at a three-decker or frigate, then have at it. We'll be glad to help you along the way. But just be aware ahead of time how much of a challenge you are getting yourself into.
 
Let me throw some numbers at you to illustrate my point. One of my jobs here at MSW is to comb through old build logs and edit the titles of completed builds to show that the model has been finished (it makes searching for finished models easier). Obviously, as I sift through the builds I find many unfinished ones. On just one page that I was recently checking, I found twelve unfinished build logs started by first-time builders. In ten of those build logs, the new builder never made it past completing the hull of his ship. In the other two, the builder never started the model at all. Nine of those twelve modelers are no longer active on this site. I did not include among those twelve modelers any who gave a life-got-in-the-way reason for suspending their build. They're simply twelve modelers who eagerly started their project and then, usually quite early on, just gave up and quietly disappeared without giving any reasons why.
 
Those twelve builds all had one thing in common: each modeler had chosen a model that posed significant challenges for a first-time builder. Some of those models would have been a challenge even for a skilled builder. Simply put, they doomed their attempt at modeling by choosing a model that was over their head.
 
All of us ship modelers know how real the temptation is to skip an entry-level model and go straight for lots of guns and lots of sails. But here's the whole point I want to make: seriously think twice about caving into that temptation. The evidence speaks for itself - literally hundreds of abandoned build logs begun by modelers who bit off more than they could chew. Many of them not only abandoned their build, they also gave up on the hobby entirely.
 
It didn't have to be that way. Making a good start by honestly appraising your skill level and deciding to go with a simple first model is one of the surest ways to success in this hobby. Most true beginner models -- those actually designed for beginners and not merely labeled as such -- don't require a lot of money, time, or expensive tools. In a few weeks you'll know if this hobby is for you without having gotten yourself worked up over a model you couldn't realistically complete. And you know, most of us here enjoy watching the progress on a relatively 'easy' model, like a small sailboat, just as much as we enjoy watching the progress on an HMS Victory -- especially when we see those models being finished and proudly displayed.
 
And you know what? Success breeds further success. 
 
For more information on choosing a first model, check out the NRG modeling resources page.
 
Choose wisely, enjoy the journey, and I look forward to seeing you complete your first build log.
 
Respectfully,
Chris

This is a good topic, I have thought about it a lot over the past few years.

Here's how I did the 1854 Constellation pivots but she had Parrotts fore and aft.  The below deck guns were on a "standard" carriage (definition subject to argument).  
 

 

 

 

 

 
If the pivot guns were mounted midships, there are pics of those about.

Hi Capt Bob,
Steam boats is large topic to cover.  How ever the Mariners Museum  in Newport News Va. has a load of plan for sidewheel steamers as well as others,ie sail -war ships- and more listed on their web site.  There is a cost to purchase them.
I've been researching a way to build a side wheel steamer that plowed the Chesapeake Bay for some time, since I lived on the bay for 37 years, and would like donate a model to the Deltaville Va.  Mariners Museum.  That is if I live longer enough to complete one of this style, which use to call on D''ville weekly..
 
For plans contact elopater@marinersmuseum.org  prices range from $22.50 to 30.00.  Example  LANCASTER & -POCHUNTAS scale1/8 framing plan $22.50
plan number MP845.