ClipperFan
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Vladimir, I expressed your appreciation to Mike who's being so generous with these fantastic images which likely haven't been seen in decades. I was so impressed that I sent Mike a request for the rest of the vessel in this scene. Meanwhile, the stern shows that the turned rails aren't verticle. They cant outwards almost imperceptibly around the stern, appear to be most verticle along the Wheelhouse section and then cant inwards around the large Stern house. The monkeyrail below also appears to do the same. The main rail drop almost appears to Bow inward but it looks to me like it's an affect of the short shelf like area combined with double planksheer moldings. Most fascinating is the 3' - 4' area below which ends in a slight ridge. While it gave an initial appearance of being solely around her Stern, I now suspect it encircles the entire vessel but is far less noticable. In fact, it looks like it aligns perfectly with the lower end of the Naval Hoods. What surprised me was that this same feature can be seen on McKay's illustration of sister Packet ships "Star of Empire" & "Chariot of Fame" as seen here. Finally as first suspected, the graceful drop below this line curves slightly inwards as it drops to the rudder. In totality, this area of Glory is far more complex than first suspected.
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Rob, To summarize, upper main deck waterways were 1' square per the description in the 1869 newspaper article. Since they're above the 3" thick deck planks, they're actually 15" and that would be the same exterior location of the plank sheer moldings. So while the interior bulkhead was 6 1/2' (5 main rail height & 18" monkeyrail) exterior main rail would look 15" shorter than 5' making it appear externally as if it was 3' 9" with an 18" monkey rail above for a total apparent exterior height of 5'3" does that sound right? Or would added moldings bring it up to 6' on the exterior? I'm still trying to nail down the accurate dimensions to ensure how "Glory of the Seas" hull would look. I get the sense we're very close now. Your description of the internal construction was very helpful. The only other confusing discrepancy is MacLean's description of Glory's bulkheads being 6'. I almost wonder if he's expecting his readers to know he wasn't including moldings and cap rail dimensions in that statistic.
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Rob, I borrowed your idea and matched 2 of your images to make a final one that shows "Glory of the Seas" completely from Bow to Stern.
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Rob & Vladimir, I asked Mike for a better look at Glory's stern from the scene of her being towed to Alaska. Here's his original, facing down and a cropped version facing up. As I first noticed, her Stern is far more elegant and complex than earlier suspected. Her turned Rail stanchions, while appearing almost verticle seem to cant just slightly outward, as does the monkeyrail below, then her main rail looks like it bows slightly inward but I suspect it's due to the effect of her moldings. The area below that appears to bow out slightly. Rob can measure it. My best guess is about a 3 - 4 drop. Finally the rest of the Stern curves again just slightly inward as it drops gracefully to the rudder below. Far more complex than at first glance.
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Rob, for the purpose of consistency, I'd say it's fairly safe to conclude that from the exterior, from the lowest sheer rail molding to the top of the main rail molding is 5' and from there to the top of the monkeyrail molding is an additional 18" for a consistent exterior bulwark height of 6 1/2'.
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Rob, this particular vaguary has always troubled me. If the main rail and monkeyrail combined are described as being 6' yet visually bulwarks appear higher, then I'd say the moldings on top of the main rail and monkeyrail are not being counted. Adding them in would probably bring total bulwark height from deck to top of monkeyrail molding to 6 1/2'. Again, referring to earlier 1869 on the ways or even the 1877 scene, is there a reliable way to get an actual measurement, to be sure?
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Vladimir, you're welcome for the picture. Rob has more accurate numbers than mine. He said from peak of cap rail to center of 1st notch is 9' from there to center of 2nd notch is 6' and 4' more to cathead center, for a total of 19'. One foot further than my guesstimate. Rob refers to the main rail & monkey rail being 6' high but I think he's not counting various moldings, which when you combine a 3 of those would put it at 6 1/2'.
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Here's the 1854 Black Ball Clipper "Champion of the Seas" at the time she was launched, she was the largest Merchant ship in the world. She was 2,447 tons, 238' keel. 252' on deck between perpendiculars. Since her stern post was verticle, her stem projected out 14'. From this contemporary daguerrotype, you'd be hard pressed to believe that. While Glory's sheer was 7' this vessel's was a much more modest 4 1/2'. Glory was very similar in dimensions, being 250' between perpendiculars on deck but was significantly smaller at 2102 tons. There's a very detailed description of Champion from the May 20, 1854 Boston Daily Atlas, on Lars Bruzelius' site. As for Glory's Bow I'm now much more inclined to believe she looked very similar to the "Henry B Hyde" but with less dramatic sheer.
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Rob, My "eyeball" guesstimate was 18'. If I read your calculations correctly, I was off by 1'. 9' from point above Jibboom to center of 1st notch, 6' from center of 1st to 2nd notch and 4' to cathead center, equaling 19' in total. I'm still wondering about her bulwark height though. Has the damaged Bulwark brought your estimate down. I've read most of McKay's Clippers had 5' Main Rails, typically topped by 18" monkey rail for a total of 6 1/2'. Mike said he spoke with crew who were 6' tall and served on Glory. They told him standing by the bulwark, they could not see over the top. That's what leads me to believe her Bulwarks were over 6'. Your thoughts?
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Rob, I edited out the extraneous details and sent these 3 images to Michael Mjelde. He said you did a great job combining these into one picture. He eventually plans to send the overall 1877 scene. I also requested the picture of Glory being towed to Alaska in order to get a more clear view of her fascinating stern.
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Vladimir, Probably the only picture of Glory which reveals the true location of her anchor stock catheads and gives an accurate idea of their dimensions. They're located completely under her fore quarterdeck caprail. They fit entirely within her 18" high monkeyrail. Cathead width can be calculated by comparing it to height, my best estimate is 8-9". Distance from first notch to second notch looks to be 5' and about 4' to the cathead. That would make the cathead's distance about 18' from the point of the quarterdeck caprail where they join just above the Jibboom entrance. As usual, Rob can double check and either verify or adjust my estimates.
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Vladimir, Druxey's revised figurehead will fit right in. All he did was revise Athene's right hand to match contours of her hand and upper shoulder. One final observation of the Naval Hood. Three equal moldings trim the bottom while two continue from the Hull to trim the upper side. The three below terminate at the outer end the two above go completely around to the other side.
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Vladimir, You always do such nice clean work. I am continually impressed. My only critique is that the fat, leading edge is not verticle. It inclines at a slight degree forward, to follow contours of Glory's flaring Hull. Top of the leading edge appears to align directly with the left side of the notch above while botton appears to line up with the center of that same forward, 1st notch. My tracing pad finally arrived, so I will make so tracings of Glory to be exhaustively precise.
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Druxey, My suggestion to Vladimir was to replace your older Athene with the more refined version in post #643. About the best tracing of Mike's excellent extra sharp closeup in post #547, is the center image in post #564. However, the section above the anchor hawse hole cants inward, not exactly verticle. I refer to a line that exits the first notch, crosses over the "E" in SEAS and perfectly outlines that leading edge of the Naval Hood. Look very closely, the triple moldings at the lower edge of her Naval Hood aren't verticle either. They each are a little shorter than the one below, aligning with that beveled edge.
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Sailor, I sympathize with your verklempft reaction to pictures I share from Michael Mjelde. It's as if they're being transmitted from OZ (Downunder, not the Emerald City)! Try as I might and believe me I've made multiple attempts, images that arrive in my email stubbornly remain upside down. I figure the group would prefer to receive these glorious highly detailed prints upside down than not at all. Mike has told me made these images directly from original negatives of over 40 years ago. Since my own printer hasn't worked for years I've been going to Staples. For 15c a standard page, I've emailed them directly to: staples@printme.com where I've been able to make my own copies. You can print Legal 16c up to Ledger size 24c. They even offer beautiful color too: Standard 55c, Ledger .90c
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Rob, A few posts back I shared a page which confirms Glory's sheer was indeed seven feet. From this beautiful 1877 Glory docked at San Francisco scene, her lovely sheer is clearly evident. This is the same image that reveals her impressively lofty rig as well. I agree with Sailor, please share your stitched together scene with our group.
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Rob, If you look at the more assertive profile of the "Donald McKay" I believe it will help us reassess "Glory of the Seas" more accurately while dispelling perspective bias clouding our perceptions. I'm not saying her entrance was as aggressive as the "M'Kay" but it does appear her profile below the waterline was inclined back more than our current illustrations show. As for her higher copper line, this is most likely in anticipation of heavy equipment installed to support her work as a factory salmon cannery ship.
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Druxey, I just want to be sure I understand you. The profile above that I shared earlier is that of another much larger vessel the "Donald McKay" 260' between perpendiculars, 2,488 tons vs "Glory of the Seas" 250' between perpendiculars, 2,102 tons. I shared this image because its recorded as being accurate, since British took the lines off her while she was in Dry Dock. My point is that this vessel, which has a more subdued bow profile has a far less verticle entrance than what we're estimating for Glory. However, if you're referring to the 1911 Seattle refit of Glory, the smashed upper Bulwarks appear to have shoved some of her upper moldings forward, marring her appearance but not affecting her sea worthiness.
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Vladimir, You probably won't like this but I just discovered a mistake I made in calculating Glory's height at her Starboard Docking Port (rectangular hole in her side). I gave specific details in an earlier post this morning. Bottom line, she's 1' 1 & 1/2" lower than before. Her loading dock is 5' above the waterline, 25" high, probably 3' wide and she's 45 & 1/2" to the lower molding. This is going to mess up your Stern again but in reality it goes back to my suspicion that we've had her Stern too big anyways. Speaking of which, one other correction I noted was that the drop below the molding is just a little deeper than you have it. My estimation is about 3'. I agree with your sleeker Bow profile, which appears to match the better overall scene of Glory I just got from Mike. Meanwhile I took another look at Glory's nameplate. Now it appears your sign board has a little too much space. Just from eyeballing, it looks like the letters "SEA" match the distance between the "Y" of GLORY and "S" of SEAS. the "of the" all lowercase would fit in equidistant from those words. Druxey did a great job of getting Athene's right arm position corrected. I would plug in his new lady, replacing the older one. Finally, with a better image of Glory in Seattle, the question of her Cutwater configuration and prow underwater still bugs me. It appears that the semicircular curve goes through both Bobstay mounts and doesn't straighten out until afterwards. Then her prow down to what's visible above the waterline doesn't appear to go down vertically but more of an angle slightly back. British took the lines off the Blackball Clipper "Donald McKay" so this Hull is reliable. Disregard my conjectural pencil sketch of her rigging, topmast positions are reversed in error.
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Mike found the missing 5th section of his super close ups of "Glory of the Seas" at docked at San Francisco. What causes the wavy masts is beyond me. I post these right side up but they come out upside down. Go figure. He referred to this as an 1880 scene. In his book it's described as being 1877. Either way, there's no doubt it's the same image. It occurred to me too, that my damn math was off on calculation of Glory's height at her Starboard Docking Port. For my calculations, I've been relying on a published dimension of 6 1/2 inches width per outer strake. Unfortunately I got 1/2 inches mixed up. Upon closest inspection, I now count 9 and a fraction strakes from her waterline to opening base. 9 × 6 1/2 inches = 54 inches + 4 1/2 inches for a total of 58 1/2 inches, with a portion of a strake visible above the white line, I estimate 5 feet. Docking Port side is 4 strakes × 6 1/2 inches = 24 inches + 2 × 1/2 inches = 25 inches or 2 feet, 1 inch. 7 strakes to bottom of Main Rail Molding are 7 × 6 1/2 inches = 42 inches + 7 × 1/2 inches = 3 1/2 inches, 45 1/2 inches or 3 feet 9 1/2 inches. Adding all 3 measurements gives 5 feet + 2 feet 1 inch + 3 feet 9 1/2 inches = 10 feet 10 1/2 inches. With 6 foot 6 inches bulwarks brings Glory's revised Docking Port height down from a previous estimate of 18 1/2 feet to 16 feet, 16 1/2 inches or 17 feet, 4 1/2 inches. 18 feet 6 inches minus 17 feet 4 1/2 inches is 1 foot 1 1/2 inches lower. Since the lowest point of her 7 foot sheer is around midway of her Main Shrouds, as best as I can see, that would be somewhat lower than 17 feet 4 1/2 inches....
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Rob, Having these pictures unhindered by the bend in a book really allows us to confirm details we could only estimate before. I'm positive now that there were 11 turned stanchions at the front of Glory's large Stern House. 2 at each corner, slightly chanted inward, close to each other, possibly 2' apart, then there are 7 evenly spaced apart. They're also somewhat inset to the upper deck which serves as a roof. Meanwhile the counterpart turned stanchions of the poop deck are more rugged for their relatively short height and cant inward even more dramatically. A graceful wrought iron bar also appears just in front of the first stanchion. Meanwhile, from the scene of Glory being towed to Alaska, it looks like these same stanchions cant slightly outward around her Stern. I'm also struck how substantially all her Bulwarks are constructed. This was one ruggedly built ship.
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Sailor, I agree, he certainty looks like a young boy to me too.
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Sailor, I should have been more specific. I meant the copper line above the entrance to the water itself. If you look at the Hull it's practically a straight line. The yellow metal plating reflects it too, as it doesn't bulge out until aft of her anchor mooring just before that dark spot you're referring to. If I were to sketch out her deck, it would reflect a very sharp profile.
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Rob, A few observations about the overall image of Glory in Seattle 1911. Her Cutwater circular curve goes through both Bobstay mounts and doesn't even straighten out until after going below them. Then her entrance appears to angle back more steeply than other images seem to imply. Her prow appears to be sharper too. Look at her waterline, she doesn't begin to fill out until after the quarterdeck, which signifies a much faster entrance then before. I'm curious as to your thoughts.
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