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ClipperFan

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  1. ClipperFan
    Rob, it sounds like we're both describing the same phenomena two different ways, sort of like "you say poh-tah-to & I say poh-tay-to". Same problem, two similar approaches to identifying it. If I'm correct, I think what you're calling "perception" I've been referring to as "perspective distortion." Basically an object changes it's shape based upon relative distance of an observer: near or far, angle of observation: above or below horizon and relative position: side, front, rear, etc. As an artist, my eye always pays attention to this so that I can more a accurately reproduce on 1 dimension: paper or canvas what I see in 3 dimensions. That way you avoid a child's drawing of a house, where front & side are equally represented on a drawing. Cute but not realistic. To me the easiest solution to this challenge of, let's call it "perceptive perspective distortion" is employing a scientific method of using angles and specific measurements to most accurately rebuild what we're seeing from multiple vexing angles. We now know a lot of specifics a out exact distances of her Bowsprit, her Figurehead etc. Those measurements won't lie to us. As you see, I've included 4 full images of old "Glory" to demonstrate how this phenomena still persists. What I see in her 1869 East Boston fitting out scene is a stern that seems to be as high, if not higher than her Bow, which is sharply verticle with a stubby "beak" and very short bowsprit. The 1907 image (which I favor not because her Bow is "faster" but because it's the closest to a true broadside view of her Hull. Now her Stern is noticeably lower than her Bow. However she hardly resembles the same vessel pictured in 1869. If you looked at both images side by side, without knowing these were the same Ship, would you know? The 3rd picture of Glory which I reversed to align all images, appears to reveal an even more pronounced Bow and now the Stern looks much lower. It reminds me how if you look at Goal Posts in a football field, you know darn well both are of equal height and dimension but the one at the other end looks so much smaller. Finally the 1922 Glacier Fish Hull is barely recognizable as the same Clipper Ship from over a half century ago. Notice though, all images show a graceful semicircular curve at the Cutwater and all demonstrate a long sheer across the entire Hull.
  2. ClipperFan
    Rob, If you just trace Glory's 1907 bow details and compare it to your proposed revised Hull, I think you'll see what I'm talking about.
  3. ClipperFan
    Rob, is this your 1":50' small scale replicas you mentioned earlier? I'll take this on to give you my alternate vision using as much of the dimensions and relationships we've been unearthing in this project. As always, I mean no offense but your Bow still looks too stubby, especially in comparison to Glory's 1907 San Pedro image. To demonstrate what to me appears to be a more sweeping Cutwater, I've included a series of Bow shots. The 1907 shot still represents the closest photographic image to a bold "dashy rake" described by the newspaper writer who viewed her upon launch. The next 1912 silhouette, is reversed to make it easier to identify similarities. There's definite observer distortion since the photographer is much closer. Still the angle of the figurehead and projecting Naval Hood, at least to me, is more pronounced than your revised Hull design appears to be. The next image is again reversed to align with all others. It's most likely sometimes in the 20s as Glory is now a full factory canning vessel. If you look at the faded waterline she's clearly on a stern down attitude, most likely due to an uneven balance of heavy equipment in her holds. My single sketch is the closest approximation to that scene. The last picture is the extreme close up in drydock 1912. It's probably the best shot of her lovely figurehead but only captures a small amount of her curved Cutwater. I hope these help steer you more in the direction I see Glory's truly beautiful form emerging.
  4. ClipperFan
    Rob, agreed. In fact it's also clearly evident in the most recent Starboard Bow close up that the inner Jibboom slims down when it squares off. From the position of the Bowsprit bands it looks like the first 6' are beveled at a very gradual angle before rounding out. A surprising feature of Frigate USS Constitution is that her Jibboom had steps let into the upper section to facilitate sailors heading out to handle rigging and sails. It's actually a very sensible arrangement and it wouldn't surprise me if something similar was done in Merchant sailing Ships too. As for masts being sprung, if you've read passages of Clipper Ships especially McKay's, Captains were constantly dealing with upper masts being sprung at the hounds. In fact in her record setting maiden voyage around the Horn from NY to San Francisco of 89 days, for a large portion of her incredibly swift voyage 'Flying Cloud' was sailing with a lot of her upper masts and sails on deck until the Ship's Carpenter and crew managed to repair them and remount them. When she was limping along in this condition, the rest of the vessel had to make due under reduced sails to ease up on stress to damaged rigging. Imagine being a passenger on board looking up to see large amounts of sky where masts, yards and sails should have been....
  5. ClipperFan
    Rob, I suspect her Bowsprit is elevated due to loss of the extra weight of her 31' Jibboom. Chances are when she was fully rigged for sailing, her Bowsprit would have been cinched down tight to the Naval Hoods. In fact I believe Donald McKay had a somewhat unique Bow design that he jealously hid. Duncan MacLean described this area as being so solidly constructed that if a massive wave washed away the Bowsprit, her Hull would still remain intact. My suspicions go back to illustrations of Clipper 'Lightning' which leave this entire area completely blank.
  6. ClipperFan
    Rob, her left lower leg and part of her heel appear to be missing in this photo. I've learned from images like this and her Salmon packing label that there was indeed an open area behind her entire back down almost to her exposed buttocks, heightening the raciness of her overall appearance. Look closely at the crew member in the picture of Glory where there is a grouping of men around her Bow. He has his arm behind her back. Something that would be impossible unless her toga is clear from her back. By the way, I laid a compass over this silhouette too. Guess what result I got for the Naval Hood? Another 20 degree reading.
  7. ClipperFan
    Rob, my intent wasn't to be defensive but to clarify how difficult the evolution process has been to get everything right. I like your Figurehead guideline though. It gives an area in which to fill out the 90" form of her Goddess figurehead. I'm still not sure I agree with the 22.30 to 23 degree steeve (angle of inclination) of Glory's Bowsprit. It makes more sense that it's 20.60 degrees, since it aligns exactly with a 4" rise to 1' run. The closest vessel in tonnage, although being launched 16 years earlier is the Clipper "Sovereign of the Seas" whose Bowsprit steeve is published precisely as 4" to the foot. Another reason I struggle with higher angles, is the fact that besides his first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" which had as steeve of 4 1/2" to 1', to arrive at the higher steves means having to use fractions of inches, which none of McKay's vessels were described as ever having done. What would be an interesting exercise to do would be to sketch the Bowsprit at both angles and see which more closely matches photos. Incidentally, I recently managed to buy 'The Outlook' March 23rd, 1912 which has an article "Fish, Fur and Forest, and a Few Other Things' by WD Hurlbert which has the silhouette of "Glory of the Seas" at the head of the article. If there's a better image in the magazine, I'll share it.
  8. ClipperFan
    Snug Harbor Johnny, David MacGregor has an excellent sail plan in his publication "British & American Clipper Ships. Cyril Hume created probably the finest scale miniature of this fine Aberdeen Clipper. One of the best images of her Spartan Figurehead of Leonidas is a front scene where she's loading lumber thru Bow ports. Unfortunately she's painted white instead of her distinctive Aberdeen Green.
  9. ClipperFan
    Rob, it's a tricky challenge to get Athene in proportion to Glory's other elements. Of course, in my own defense, this sketch was done in Summer 2004, well before I learned off her dimensions being 90". Knowing that now helps us to calculate her Figurehead's relation to the inner Bobstay, and the 24' Bowsprit above her, which then should enable us to reconstruct her Naval Hood and Cutwater below.
  10. ClipperFan
    I found more images of previous research. The first silhouette is from an 1912 article discussing Glory's life as a floating Salmon processing factory. There's no way of knowing if she's sitting level or Bow down. It's helpful to see the relationship of her figurehead, naval hoods and the portion of her Cutwater that goes just below her Bobstay mounts. The close up of her Bow is the source of my sketch which is a reverse of that picture. The dimensions of the figurehead get close but she's too close to the Naval hood. The last sketch is probably one of my earliest. It's probably the most detailed effort to capture her intricate carvings. I'm sure Rob will be the first to notice her Bow is too aggressive and stretched out. Compared to more accurate images available now, it's very easy to see now.
  11. ClipperFan
    Sailor, If you have 3D CGI capabilities, my request is to please take on the challenge. I never learned those computer abilities but fully respect the results that can be accomplished with them.
  12. ClipperFan
    Lars Bruzelius' excellent online resource for Clipper & Packet Ships has a good number of Duncan MacLean's detailed descriptions of McKay's vessels. His first Extreme Clipper 'Staghound' is described as having a Bowsprit steeve of 4 1/2" to 1' 20.6 degrees. Every other Clipper Ship description I could find which listed Bowsprit steeve after that was no higher than 4" to 1' 18.4 degrees. The closest vessel to dimensions of 'Glory of the Seas' where I could find the exact Bowsprit inclination was the 'Sovereign of the Seas' with a steeve of 4" to 1'. Nowhere did I find a description of a McKay Ship with Bowsprit Steeve higher than 4.5" to 1' and that's his initial Extreme Clipper Staghound. To have a 22.3 degree angle would require a Bowsprit steeve of 4.96" to 1' and to accomplish 23 degrees requires a steeve of 5.1" to 1', neither of which I read in any description of McKay's vessels. Somehow I was under the impression that 'Glory's' Bowsprit steeve was 3' to 8' 20.6 degrees, probably because to me it made logical sense to follow McKay's own progression.
  13. ClipperFan
    Rob, Michael Mjelde just shared these 4 amazingly sharp images of Glory at San Pedro 1907. He again reminded me to make sure we please credit him as the source of these images which I assured him we would. These are a set of enlargements done in the 80s by a professional developer made from Mike's original contact print from which he made 5x7 negatives. He actually has 2 sets of these prints. Mike said he describes the image in a current sequel being reviewed by a potential publisher.
  14. ClipperFan
    Rob, thanks for the great tip! You would think by now our good friends at Abe Books would be sending us some great discounts!
  15. ClipperFan
    Rob, if the correct angle is 22.5. 23 or 20 degrees doesn't matter to me. I just want to be sure we're accurate. You bring up a good point though, about being unable to determine the vessel's orientation to the building in the 1911 shot. I didn't take that into consideration. To place the compass on the 1907 shot, I measured the exact distance from 3 reference points on the compass from the bottom of the page and figured that gave me a 90 degree angle. If that approach is flawed, can you measure the angle you get from the 1907 close up? Also, I admit to being confused about the site line you used for the midshipmen reading which isn't parallel with the keel line, it's more of a perspective line. How is that angle determined? Michael referred me back to Glory's 1869 fitting out photo at McKay's yard as a reference for her Bowsprit steeve. I still think that's a tough one. That viewpoint is much closer to the Stern than the Bow and that alone shifts the angles of everything.
  16. ClipperFan
    Rob, Michael Mjelde told me that his Bowsprit reading of 22 degrees 30 seconds was taken from Glory's 1869 fitting out image, not the 1907 one. Using a compass on both the 1907 San Pedro pic and the extreme close up of her Naval Hood from 1911, I get 20 degrees exactly in both images. I'm going to run these figures by Mike to get his response.
  17. ClipperFan
    Rob, I found the full size vessel that you made a miniature of: 1906 Truscott Steam Launch "Puffin" and she's an interesting rarity indeed.
  18. ClipperFan
    Rob, I was impressed to read that you did a miniature of the Steam Sloop "Puffin". if there's any pictures, I'd love to see them. By the way, I calculated that if you use 1/16" = 3', it turns out to be 48' per inch which equals exactly 240' at 5" which is the precise dimension of Glory's keel. Her overall length of 265' Taffrail to Knightheads is 5.59". Coincidently the smaller sketch I recently did of Glory is 6 1/8" at her Keel, 6 7/8" Taffrail to Knightheads, just slightly larger than the scale you're looking at.
  19. ClipperFan
    Rob, at 1:700 scale your models would be a little over 4". Probably not big enough to view decent details. A 1:200 scale at 265' comes in at 15.9" which would allow for better observation of Glory's evolution over her long lifetime.
  20. ClipperFan
    Duncan MacFarlane "CSS Nashville Capturing and Burning 'Harvey Birch' 1864" is probably one of the most famous oil paintings of the horrific destruction of our American Merchantman during the Civil War. To my knowledge the US never did recover the hard earned preeminence they established before that conflagration. Such a loss...
  21. ClipperFan
    Rob, Thanks for sharing these beautiful images of the lovely figurehead of the Clipper 'America.' When I see the sole vestiges of USA's once mighty fleet of magnificent Clippers it literally makes me sad. True, most of these impressive "Greyhounds of the Sea" were lost in the depths or burned due to freak accidents but there were a few which survived mainly intact into the 20s and even the 30s. Vessels like "Dashing Wave" the hardy Downeaster "Benj. F Packard" and McKay's last ever Clipper the magnificentn"Glory of the Seas" all gave long lived service, proving the incredible durability of their Builder's craft. Yet where are they today? All gone, except a few surviving Figureheads.... Such a loss to America's Merchant Maritime History.
  22. ClipperFan
    Rob, In his multiple descriptions of various Packet and Clipper Ships, Duncan McLean, writer for the Boston Daily Atlas described that it was a popular fashion style to monochromatically paint most ship's Figureheads white. I have also read where occasionally there would be gold and sometimes blue trim applied to highlight folds of garments. In the published image of Glory's Figurehead of the children's book there are definitely two very thin parallel lines that grace the bottom of her toga. These lines can be seen all along the many graceful folds which drape behind her right arm. She's also wearing an impressive necklace and two arm bands which also have two complementing thin lines on the ends. However unless there's new information uncovering original paint schemes, this falls in the realm of pure speculation on my part.
  23. ClipperFan
    Hi Rob, In his latest email to me, Michael specifically asked me to share this information with the group, so I am quoting him exactly: "For your information Ron Haug has been a shipwright since he began his apprenticeship in 1952 when he was 15 years old. We first started corresponding in 1995 when we were trying to determine the accuracy of the purported builder's model of Glory at Mariner's Museum. We concluded that it it is indeed the builder's model, it was changed 'drastically' on the mold loft floor. He is likewise probably the 'expert' regarding Benj. F Packard. Therefore I trust his opinion. Please share this information with the group." This is verbatim what Michael Mjelde wrote to me. (If anyone knows how to italicize words, Mike used italics for the vessels "Glory" and "Benj. F Packard." Then it would be precisely how he wrote it).
  24. ClipperFan
    Rob, you're right. I multiplied incorrectly. I might have caught it too if I referenced the distance in the photo too. The front of the head on the Figurehead is about Center of the span above between two bands, that's about 18" not over 5'.
  25. ClipperFan
    Rob, I think I follow you on the distance of the center of the Foremast to the Forecastle of the Main Deck being the same as the Height up to her Fore Top. Staghound's Foremast was described as being 50' from the Knightheads. Your description of the Deckhouse width being 4x distance from Fore to Main Mast must have somehow been misstated. Staghound's Main was 67' from her Fore. 4x that would be 268' wide which makes no sense as these vessels were about 40' Beam. You must be referring to some other dimension unless McKay's figured out how to install a "Tardis" on his Clipper Ships!

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