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ClipperFan
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Here's page 227 of Michael Mjelde's first publication "Glory of the Seas." As he said, all 3 scenes are indeed of the same location. A huge and quite distinctive "Seattle Grain Co (?)" storage shed, which has identical 15 pane oblong windows, separated by a small divider in the upper roof level can be seen on the Port side of Glory in all three images. There's also a consistent run of wooden piers below which line what could be a Dry Dock in each picture. That would explain all the long skinny logs floating along her Starboard side. I've sent an email to Mike to see if he can verify my potential Dry Dock conclusion. I'll let you know what his reply is.
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Rob and everyone else, I have to set the record straight. The latest razor sharp close up of Glory's bow and figurehead Mike so generously shared with me, was taken from the adjacent pier to the north not as I erroneously remembered "from across the bay." My apologies for the mistake.
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Rob, this was sent to me by Michael Mjelde in my morning email. He also said it was taken from across the bay as described on page 227 of his first publication "Glory of the Seas." I haven't had a chance to read that page yet.
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Vladimir, My apologies if I confused you. The background is painted black, like the rest of Glory's upper topsides were. Carvings and moldings were gold leafed.
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Vladimir, that's beautiful work. Now imagine that Black background being highlighted by 24 karat gold leaf. It must have been something to see.
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Here are 2 port Bow images of Glory's figurehead taken in 1900. While most of her flowery carved arch carvings have been washed away, there's a small amount just under her left foot and some weathered remains a little further back. Her flowing ribbon work has fared much better and remains almost entirely intact. Another observation I've made is that the curving outline of the Cut Water arch isn't equal across the whole distance. It echoes the Naval Hood arch above. It's wider at it base, narrower as it approaches its apex below Athene's feet. Her Naval Hoods moldings don't match each other either. There are 3 moldings below which get thinner as they progress to the tip, while there are only two above. The last image is a port view of the outhermost end of Glory's Naval Hoods terminating behind her Figurehead. Quality is poor but comes from a small photo from a contemporary newspaper.
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Vladimir, I've enlarged the original 1869 Glory on the Ways scene to get as close as possible to the beautifully carved flowery arch on her Cut Water surmounted by the graceful flowing ribbons embossed on her Naval Hoods above. Considering these were then 24 karat gold plated must have made an impressive sight to see in person. Over her lifetime, almost all of her flowery carvings were washed away from her Cut Water below the Goddess Athene. Her Naval Hoods with their graceful interweaving ribbons survived far better, most likely since they flared out to a degree, being very closely aligned to her Hull before narrowing down to a point behind her Figurehead. You're observation about Athene's mount is to be commended too. Her left foot rests comfortably on a curved ball reminiscent of billet heads on other vessels. Due to a limited amount of images available it's hard to tell for sure. It looks to me like her right foot is lifted almost as if taking a step forward and it rests on the arch of a curving vine below. The two ornamental devices combine in a graceful sideways "s" curve. Another good image is of the close up of Glory's Bow from 1900. My best attempt at capturing these carvings are from 2009. The prow is a bit too aggressive but carving details are fairly accurate to her original appearance.
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Vladimir, Some observations about your tracing of the 1907 San Pedro Bow. Glory's Naval Hoods come to a point a short distance, maybe 18" behind her figurehead. That's to allow room for her flowing scarf held in Athene's extended right hand. While most of her right arm's gone, most of her hand remains. That's probably due to it being carved directly out of her hair bun. If you pay careful attention to the two Bobstay mounts on her Hull, you'll see they're just slightly behind the where you drew your curve. The curve on the hull continues through those two Bobstay mounts and then straightens out almost but not quite vertically before it goes into the water. I believe a shadow of a post on the Pier behind her Bow is what has been causing confusion at this junction I'm going to buy tracing paper so I can retrace these images more accurately. My original traces were done by holding the print up, tracing it behind and then reversing the photos to get my results.
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Vladimir, I'm thrilled to see the point I've been struggling to make is gradually being recognized. While it's nice to take greatest credit, my feelings are it's misplaced to a degree. This is a collaboration and there's lots of credit to be shared. Rob deserves a lot of credit for his decision to move beyond modifying Revell's Cutty Sark hull to creating a genuine version. That move got the attention of Arina "theauthorsdaughter". She than facilitated the wonderful meeting of her dad, Michael Mjelde (whom I consider a celebrity for his lifelong research on "Glory of the Seas") My vote for who deserves greatest credit is Michael Mjelde himself. His humility in accepting that published drawings could possibly be inaccurate has been the greatest contribution to promoting our efforts. By sending me much clearer prints of Glory, he has made everything else, still ongoing, possible
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Here's a quick tracing of Glory's stern, done as a accurately as possible based on available photographic information. While there's no specific dimension given for Stern overhang (sole example I could find is "Staghound" which had a stern which projected just 7' from her sternpost) it was generally noted too, that all of Donald McKay's vessels had short Sterns to prevent possibility of foundering. It's well suspected that British Tea Clipper 'Ariel' was lost this way. Look at British Tea Clipper "Cutty Sark" and you'll see the significant difference between the elegant finley formed Yacht like Stern compared to the more rugged business like McKay Sterns.
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Rob, We're definitely getting closer but I think there's still more refinement to be done. Here's a direct tracing of the Bow element from Mike's more detailed photo. As she was partially in shadows I had to approximate the Figurehead Athene's head. Even though this is in my estimate overall the least distorted image of Glory that has been revealed so far, I noticed that the distance between her Figurehead and inner Bobstay mount, which you've determined are equal is foreshortened just a bit. My intent is to trace all 4 photos, to get a sense of her Hull proportions and then use all specific measurements we've so carefully developed to recreate her most accurately.
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Rob, as we get closer to her true dimensions I believe the entire beauty of her design will show through. After all, even riding high like she is in her last pic, she's still an impressive ship. As I've said all along, my goal is to recreate Donald McKay's last Clipper as a accurately as possible. By the way, your picture isn't visible, you'll need to repost it.
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Rob, it sounds like we're both describing the same phenomena two different ways, sort of like "you say poh-tah-to & I say poh-tay-to". Same problem, two similar approaches to identifying it. If I'm correct, I think what you're calling "perception" I've been referring to as "perspective distortion." Basically an object changes it's shape based upon relative distance of an observer: near or far, angle of observation: above or below horizon and relative position: side, front, rear, etc. As an artist, my eye always pays attention to this so that I can more a accurately reproduce on 1 dimension: paper or canvas what I see in 3 dimensions. That way you avoid a child's drawing of a house, where front & side are equally represented on a drawing. Cute but not realistic. To me the easiest solution to this challenge of, let's call it "perceptive perspective distortion" is employing a scientific method of using angles and specific measurements to most accurately rebuild what we're seeing from multiple vexing angles. We now know a lot of specifics a out exact distances of her Bowsprit, her Figurehead etc. Those measurements won't lie to us. As you see, I've included 4 full images of old "Glory" to demonstrate how this phenomena still persists. What I see in her 1869 East Boston fitting out scene is a stern that seems to be as high, if not higher than her Bow, which is sharply verticle with a stubby "beak" and very short bowsprit. The 1907 image (which I favor not because her Bow is "faster" but because it's the closest to a true broadside view of her Hull. Now her Stern is noticeably lower than her Bow. However she hardly resembles the same vessel pictured in 1869. If you looked at both images side by side, without knowing these were the same Ship, would you know? The 3rd picture of Glory which I reversed to align all images, appears to reveal an even more pronounced Bow and now the Stern looks much lower. It reminds me how if you look at Goal Posts in a football field, you know darn well both are of equal height and dimension but the one at the other end looks so much smaller. Finally the 1922 Glacier Fish Hull is barely recognizable as the same Clipper Ship from over a half century ago. Notice though, all images show a graceful semicircular curve at the Cutwater and all demonstrate a long sheer across the entire Hull.
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Rob, If you just trace Glory's 1907 bow details and compare it to your proposed revised Hull, I think you'll see what I'm talking about.
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Rob, is this your 1":50' small scale replicas you mentioned earlier? I'll take this on to give you my alternate vision using as much of the dimensions and relationships we've been unearthing in this project. As always, I mean no offense but your Bow still looks too stubby, especially in comparison to Glory's 1907 San Pedro image. To demonstrate what to me appears to be a more sweeping Cutwater, I've included a series of Bow shots. The 1907 shot still represents the closest photographic image to a bold "dashy rake" described by the newspaper writer who viewed her upon launch. The next 1912 silhouette, is reversed to make it easier to identify similarities. There's definite observer distortion since the photographer is much closer. Still the angle of the figurehead and projecting Naval Hood, at least to me, is more pronounced than your revised Hull design appears to be. The next image is again reversed to align with all others. It's most likely sometimes in the 20s as Glory is now a full factory canning vessel. If you look at the faded waterline she's clearly on a stern down attitude, most likely due to an uneven balance of heavy equipment in her holds. My single sketch is the closest approximation to that scene. The last picture is the extreme close up in drydock 1912. It's probably the best shot of her lovely figurehead but only captures a small amount of her curved Cutwater. I hope these help steer you more in the direction I see Glory's truly beautiful form emerging.
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Rob, agreed. In fact it's also clearly evident in the most recent Starboard Bow close up that the inner Jibboom slims down when it squares off. From the position of the Bowsprit bands it looks like the first 6' are beveled at a very gradual angle before rounding out. A surprising feature of Frigate USS Constitution is that her Jibboom had steps let into the upper section to facilitate sailors heading out to handle rigging and sails. It's actually a very sensible arrangement and it wouldn't surprise me if something similar was done in Merchant sailing Ships too. As for masts being sprung, if you've read passages of Clipper Ships especially McKay's, Captains were constantly dealing with upper masts being sprung at the hounds. In fact in her record setting maiden voyage around the Horn from NY to San Francisco of 89 days, for a large portion of her incredibly swift voyage 'Flying Cloud' was sailing with a lot of her upper masts and sails on deck until the Ship's Carpenter and crew managed to repair them and remount them. When she was limping along in this condition, the rest of the vessel had to make due under reduced sails to ease up on stress to damaged rigging. Imagine being a passenger on board looking up to see large amounts of sky where masts, yards and sails should have been....
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Rob, I suspect her Bowsprit is elevated due to loss of the extra weight of her 31' Jibboom. Chances are when she was fully rigged for sailing, her Bowsprit would have been cinched down tight to the Naval Hoods. In fact I believe Donald McKay had a somewhat unique Bow design that he jealously hid. Duncan MacLean described this area as being so solidly constructed that if a massive wave washed away the Bowsprit, her Hull would still remain intact. My suspicions go back to illustrations of Clipper 'Lightning' which leave this entire area completely blank.
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Rob, her left lower leg and part of her heel appear to be missing in this photo. I've learned from images like this and her Salmon packing label that there was indeed an open area behind her entire back down almost to her exposed buttocks, heightening the raciness of her overall appearance. Look closely at the crew member in the picture of Glory where there is a grouping of men around her Bow. He has his arm behind her back. Something that would be impossible unless her toga is clear from her back. By the way, I laid a compass over this silhouette too. Guess what result I got for the Naval Hood? Another 20 degree reading.
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Rob, my intent wasn't to be defensive but to clarify how difficult the evolution process has been to get everything right. I like your Figurehead guideline though. It gives an area in which to fill out the 90" form of her Goddess figurehead. I'm still not sure I agree with the 22.30 to 23 degree steeve (angle of inclination) of Glory's Bowsprit. It makes more sense that it's 20.60 degrees, since it aligns exactly with a 4" rise to 1' run. The closest vessel in tonnage, although being launched 16 years earlier is the Clipper "Sovereign of the Seas" whose Bowsprit steeve is published precisely as 4" to the foot. Another reason I struggle with higher angles, is the fact that besides his first Extreme Clipper "Staghound" which had as steeve of 4 1/2" to 1', to arrive at the higher steves means having to use fractions of inches, which none of McKay's vessels were described as ever having done. What would be an interesting exercise to do would be to sketch the Bowsprit at both angles and see which more closely matches photos. Incidentally, I recently managed to buy 'The Outlook' March 23rd, 1912 which has an article "Fish, Fur and Forest, and a Few Other Things' by WD Hurlbert which has the silhouette of "Glory of the Seas" at the head of the article. If there's a better image in the magazine, I'll share it.
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Snug Harbor Johnny, David MacGregor has an excellent sail plan in his publication "British & American Clipper Ships. Cyril Hume created probably the finest scale miniature of this fine Aberdeen Clipper. One of the best images of her Spartan Figurehead of Leonidas is a front scene where she's loading lumber thru Bow ports. Unfortunately she's painted white instead of her distinctive Aberdeen Green.
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Rob, it's a tricky challenge to get Athene in proportion to Glory's other elements. Of course, in my own defense, this sketch was done in Summer 2004, well before I learned off her dimensions being 90". Knowing that now helps us to calculate her Figurehead's relation to the inner Bobstay, and the 24' Bowsprit above her, which then should enable us to reconstruct her Naval Hood and Cutwater below.
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I found more images of previous research. The first silhouette is from an 1912 article discussing Glory's life as a floating Salmon processing factory. There's no way of knowing if she's sitting level or Bow down. It's helpful to see the relationship of her figurehead, naval hoods and the portion of her Cutwater that goes just below her Bobstay mounts. The close up of her Bow is the source of my sketch which is a reverse of that picture. The dimensions of the figurehead get close but she's too close to the Naval hood. The last sketch is probably one of my earliest. It's probably the most detailed effort to capture her intricate carvings. I'm sure Rob will be the first to notice her Bow is too aggressive and stretched out. Compared to more accurate images available now, it's very easy to see now.
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Sailor, If you have 3D CGI capabilities, my request is to please take on the challenge. I never learned those computer abilities but fully respect the results that can be accomplished with them.
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