Danstream

Looks very good @MESSIS. I like the way you tied up the oars better than the way showed in the picture of the real replica, where the thrust of the oars is transmitted to the ship via the ropes. In your way, the oars push directly on the stanchions during the active part of their stroke (but perhaps there might be an issue of deterioration of the area of contact?). Very good job in carving fifty identical oars. Dan.

Dear all, the discussion is very interesting. Just a clarification for Messis: clearly I did not translate the text above, I just downloaded the translation from internet once the episode of Tiresias popped up in my memory. I studied ancient Greek in my Gymnasium school in Italy, but it was 45-50 years ago and I completely lost my skills for translation. However, after the last posts, I went back to my books and indeed, the term used in my text of the Odissea was αθηρολοιγόν. Now my Greek-Italian vocabulary translate it as 'ventilabro', which, as it was indicated also by Louie above, was an old tool used in agriculture to launch the grain in the air and is similar to a shovel. Looking into the pictures of the 'museo della agricoltura', in Italy (agriculture tradition museum) , I found, among others, this suggestive picture: Well, I think that having a oar that shaped is not an unrealistic assumption. Note that in some translations which are more oriented to a wide audience, in English, the object the oar is mistaken with is translated as 'shovel'. Sorry for my long digression, I hope you find it interesting, Best regards, Dan.

As said in the post above, I went on with my build, but I have not very exciting progress to show, just few more planks added to the hull. I glued balsa gussets all along the false keel that will help to better support the garboard. For now, the planking is following the incorrect pattern that was initiated before, but after I studied the material indicated to me by Backer in his posts above, in particular the presentation by Chuck, I tried to spile the last applied strake. I did not spile it in the true way, I just bent and formed the strip within his plane, but the difference was immediately noticeable. The strip so shaped practically fell in place by itself. Clearly, this is the way I will proceed with the second planking in order to obtain strakes that run more parallel to the horizontal plane. That is all for now, best regards, Dan.

I am following your build, being much intrigued by the subject. About the oars, let me post an information that probably is not of much practical help, but it is a direct account from the poet. In his journey in the afterworld, Odysseus seeks out and talks to Tiresias, the great prophet who alone among the dead is allowed to retain his true mind (nous). He advises him how to avoid the various dangers that await him on his way home and how finally to make peace with Poseidon. To achieve this peace, Tiresias instructs Odysseus to plant an oar in a place where ships and the sea are unknown: Then you must go off again, carrying a broad-bladed oar, Until you come to men who know nothing of the sea, Who eat their food unsalted, and have never seen Red-prowed ships or oars that wing them along. And I will tell you a sure sign that you have found them, One you cannot miss. When you meet another traveler Who thinks you are carrying a winnowing fan, Then you must fix your oar in the earth So, the oar must look like a fan, perhaps looking into the word of the original Greek text could be of help to better identify the object.

Thank you so much Backer! I had seen only one of the pdf that you linked. I will read the others with interest. Meanwhile, I went on with the planking following the slope that I penciled in the posted photo, which clearly is the wrong pattern on the bow. I am happy that this is the first planking, so I can correct the pattern with the second one. I have now understood that I should have spiled the planks and I will do that with the second layer. I am going to post more pictures soon, but there will not be anything exciting, just the completion of the wrong first layer. Thank you and best regards, Dan.

Your build is so sharp! It looks great! Are the gratings made of walnut? Regards, Dan.

Hi all, I am a slow builder, so I have only a small update since my last post. I completed the first band of planking that I made of five strakes. It took me long time, about one day per strake, probably because of my inexperience. I know this is just the first planking and it will be covered, but I am using it as a learning class, so I am trying to do it as good as I can. The strakes are made of ramin wood (5 mm x 1 mm) which I am finding rather hard to bend. I tried to preform each strake as much as I could, but at the end there is always some bending and twisting to overcome, so, at the end, the parts are not glued stress-free. This is the way I have arranged the stern area so far: And this is the bow. I presume I will have to introduce some drastic directional change of the planking here in addition to the normal tapering as I sketched with pencil lines. Do you guys think that the outlined arrangement makes sense for this type of bluff bow? I would like starting in parallel the planking of the deck to speed up the construction. However, I have to take a decision here because on main deck there is another inaccuracy of the A.L. design. The opening on the main deck is shorter than it should be, probably to make room for cannons that A.L. arbitrarily included on the deck. I have not elongated that opening before gluing the deck, therefore, if I add another panel, this will be blind, i.e. with no any cavity behind it. Should I leave it as it is or try to make this modification? If I add another panel, perhaps I could cover it with a canvas to hide the fact that there is not a cavity below it. Any suggestion will be appreciated. That is all for now, Best regards, Dan.

Awesome work on this old kit. Looking forward to seeing more. Dan

Thank you Mark! However, let me take the opportunity to add a numerical assessment. If I assume that I use a gun with a mass which is 50 times the mass of the cannonball (it is just a guess of mine to make a case, I do not know what could be a realistic mass ratio), then using the first principles mentioned above, I obtain that the velocity of the cannonball for the recoil case is about 99% of the velocity that I would obtain for the no-recoil case. Therefore, for a case with the masses of above, the reduction of velocity is probably insignificant. This can be explained by the fact that the mass of the gun is so larger than the mass of the cannonball. Considerations about reaction forces are not affected and remain valid. Kind regards, Dan.

Lovely work! I found your watercolors awesome! Congratulations, Dan.

I followed with much interest this conversation and I would like to bring some considerations about the physics involved. I found that the argumentation of Mark P. are fundamentally correct from a 'first principles' approach point of view. Adding a lot of details about 'real effects' (as powder, distribution of forces, ...) do not help to shed light on the underlying concepts. One can consider two extreme 'ideal' pictures, i.e. a gun free to recoil and a gun rigidly bolted to a large (infinite for our considerations) mass. If you do correctly the math, applying the conservation of energy and the conservation of momentum principles (do not get involved into the details of forces), you find out that the velocity of the cannon ball (measured w.r.t. the ship) is higher in the second case. Clearly these are 'idealizations' but they show in a simple way the trends of the phenomena. Of course, in a real case you have to consider practical implementation issues, like the forces that the gun transmits to its attachment points which might be a weak bottleneck or the strength any other structural link that connects the gun to the closest hard point of the ship structure. Increasing the energy and the efficiency of the guns, the reaction to these forces in the case of rigid connections and not recoiling guns might become prohibitive, especially considering a technology based on wood and nails. In addition, the need of having a gun that can be retracted for a quicker recharging, might have prevailed over the design of having a fixed gun at the cost of a small loss of velocity. As far as the entity of the forces, for a given amount of energy delivered as useful energy for propelling the cannonball (i.e. net useful energy purged by the energy lost into heat, friction, noise, ...), this energy must be ultimately transformed into 'work' of the reaction points, being 'work' made of a force multiplied by a 'stroke' (i.e. Energy = force x displacement). Now, if the stroke is only the elastic deformation of a stiff supporting structure (case of a rigid connection of the gun to a structure), being this normally of the order of a fraction of a millimeter, it occurs that the forces are of huge entity. If, instead, a compliant structure is interposed (a kind of 'spring'), the stroke becomes much longer and consequently the forces to be reacted are much smaller. I hope that the above is of help, best regards, Dan.

Hi Jonathan, your model looks great! I like everything you have done and the colored parts look well the part. Best regards, D.

Your craftmanship is amazing! The planking of the stern might well have taken longer, but the result is gorgeous. Best regards, D.

Soon after opening the box, I realized that A.L. took several obvious artistic licenses in the design of the model. I could not really understand the reason for that and I found that a bit disappointing. If I can, I will try to correct at least some of these inaccuracies to bring the look of the ship more in line with the existing pictures of her replica available on the web. After assembling the basic structure, I started fairing the frames. In doing that, I found that I needed to shim the top of frame #6 in order to get the main deck to lie on top of the frames making a regular and not too sharp curvature. I also added a shim on the contour of frame #5 to avoid a local depression of the planks. I also added the bottom to the openings of the decks which I painted black and glued the main deck. At this point, I tackled the window openings on the transom that are obviously inaccurate. This how they look out of the box: And this is how they look after my correction: Finally, I put on the first two planks of the hull. It took me quite some time to shape the planks reasonably and at the end, this was the result: It is not perfect, but as a first attempt I cannot complain too hard. The plank bends quite regularly around the bow and the sides of the ship. This is all for now, any comment is welcome. Thanks for looking and best regards, D.

Mayflower 1620 - 2020 Dutch Cargo Fluyt - ca. 1608 Artesania Latina 1:64 scale Hi all, this is my first instalment of my first ship model. Ship modeling is a new genre for me, having built so far only aircraft plastic scale models. For this start-off of mine, I chose the kit of the Mayflower from Artesania Latina. My choice was driven by its reasonable price and by its rating as a kit of medium difficulty. In addition, this month, on September 16th, it is exactly 400 years since when the Mayflower finally set out from Plymouth for her historical voyage that brought the Pilgrim Fathers to America after a first attempt from Southampton in August of the same year. I live in the Netherlands, in the outskirt of the city of Leiden, the city where the Pilgrims Fathers resided for 12 years before their departure. The city of Leiden is celebrating this anniversary with several events spread over the year. Considering all these connections, I though that the Mayflower was a nice and motivated choice for my first build. The parts of the kit are of good wood quality and are quite precisely cut. The bulkheads and the keel need just a bit of filing to facilitate their assembling. This is the basic structure just assembled out of the box on my workbench.

Thanks Rynland. I have selected my kit and I have already started it. Tonight I will try to upload my first instalment so you will see it (under ships from 1501 to 1750).

Dear all, my name is Daniele, I am Italian, but I have spent my last 30 years in the Netherlands where I live and work at present. The country here is a very good country for sailing (and also for other things) and in the past I used to enjoy sailing. I was also a proficient scuba diver and I enjoyed diving here and in few most interesting places around the world. Now, I just watch sailing boats and I thought it would be nice for me to try building models as an alternative different way of continuing cultivating interests in the marine world. I have just joined this fine forum which I have been following for a while. I do not have previous ship modeling experience, although I watched my father and my brother building quite fine models. I thought that joining this forum would be an excellent way to facilitate learning and getting first hand advices from experienced modelers. In addition, sharing my work on a forum, surely will add an additional dimension to the hobby. Soon, I will be starting a build log so I can present my work to you. Thanks for reading and my best regards to all, D.