Gabek

I have just spent 3 days on the Pacific Jewel celebrating Australia Day on Sydney Harbour and out at sea.
Took the opportunity to take a few shots of the Endeavor Replica and have put them on for all to see

That is what I meant earlier: Apparently the copper tells, what the ship did last :-)
 
In our german forum there is a nice collection of pictures all of different shades in colo of the copperr.
 
There is a nice article in German from Peter Prystaz of Swiss minisail that could explain:
http://minisail.ch/de/werkkunde/kupfern.pdf "5. Patina:  (rough translation) As there are almost no more sea going coppered ships on regular trips, one started to imagining the appearance more than knowing it. Mostly it is displayed blank or green, which is wrong. If a ship is sea going the copper becomes pink. Yes, pink! The pinkish color is coming of the abrasion of the water molecules, the green only comes on the air. New copper is of shiny brownish color. If in drydock like the Cutty, it gets darker. If the ship is in saltwater but not moved it gets green [as seen on the Constitution]. If the ship was in harbour for longer, first the waterline gets pink the bottom last. So the color of the copper can accentuate the story of the model."   One more remark: There are some very nice pictures of recent copperings with highly glossy plates. I do think, this does not translate into the old days, as todays copper for sure has some kind of surface treating. Original copper plates that arrived in the shipyard for sure did not have this and also had enough time to "season".   [That also applies for the wood: It usually had enough time to season while being build, so there where never those like "fresh" cut wood looking ships ;-) ]   That lead to some trials on the color - all 1:100, the nails still a bit strong as those were the first tests.    Copper not too old, the bottom brown from lying in port, pink on the waterline and green above ...     ... sailing the brown getting less andgetting pinkish ...     ... and the brown gone and mostely pink.     Here the last two tests to compare.     On the bottom there are always some blank copper plates as reference :-)   Cheers, Daniel

I believe that the green band is seen only 'twixt wind and water' and would be scoured bright at the bow from water and debris flow. Trincomalee is static, so you don't see the scouring.

Gabe,
 
Whitewash was used extensively in the lower decks and hold.  However, it's Captain's choice on what the crew paints. 

Great topic...and one I am going to address on my Triton cross-section. At 1/96 scale I am not even going to attempt a nail pattern! I am using a book and photos of HMS Trincomalee a lot as reference. Here's a decent shot of the copper showing different colours and the visibility of the nails.

 
Clear skies,
Gabe

Although I am still in the early stages of my Triton cross-section, I am going to have to make some decisions soon. My overall plan is to paint one half of the model and show off the wood plus cutaways on the other half. My big question is about painting the hold...
 
Photos of the HMS Trincomalee's hold show that everything: planks, pillars, beams, etc, were painted white. However, photos of the Victory's hold show unpainted sides and pillars.
 
Any advice?
 
Regards,
Gabe

Great topic...and one I am going to address on my Triton cross-section. At 1/96 scale I am not even going to attempt a nail pattern! I am using a book and photos of HMS Trincomalee a lot as reference. Here's a decent shot of the copper showing different colours and the visibility of the nails.

 
Clear skies,
Gabe

Great topic...and one I am going to address on my Triton cross-section. At 1/96 scale I am not even going to attempt a nail pattern! I am using a book and photos of HMS Trincomalee a lot as reference. Here's a decent shot of the copper showing different colours and the visibility of the nails.

 
Clear skies,
Gabe

Great topic...and one I am going to address on my Triton cross-section. At 1/96 scale I am not even going to attempt a nail pattern! I am using a book and photos of HMS Trincomalee a lot as reference. Here's a decent shot of the copper showing different colours and the visibility of the nails.

 
Clear skies,
Gabe

Here's my take:
 
Model Expo copper tape with nail pattern made from very small hypodermic tubing, so it is not raised, but rather shows the nail outline. Weathered with the "bodily fluid" method. There's more pictures of the copper and the stamping jig in my build log. 

Hi all,
 
There is also an interesting paper by Mark Staniforth on the subject at: http://www.academia.edu/358814/The_Introduction_and_Use_of_Copper_Sheathing_-_A_History - you have to signup to download the pdf but it is free; and the article can be read online without signing up. he also has some other interesting topics.
 
cheers
 
Pat

IMHO most models show an exaggerated pattern: usually too raised and prominent. Actual examples (Cutty Sark, Victory, etc) show nail heads virtually flush with the plates.

Thanks Mike.
I made some changes in space for main mast, as seen on in ChadB build, thank for inspiration, very nice.

Hi
 

 
This was waiting for me when I arrived home yesterday, finally I will be able o keep things squared.
 
As for the black paper on the frames, the double frames they are sturdy enough ( if the one I built can be used as an example) the simple ones might be a ploblem. I used the paper because I read somewhere that they used tar or pitch on the frame joints, but now I can't find it, will have to go through the books again...

I agree with Christian that there wouldn't be caulk between the frame timbers.  Caulk was to prevent water from entering the hull - so it would only be on the deck and hull planking.  (I read somewhere that when a new ship was launched, the head caulker would have to drink all the water that came into the hull! )
 
I wouldn't worry about remaking your frames - they look excellent.  The paper is showing off your excellent construction of the frames!  
 
Clear skies,
Gabe

I agree with Christian that there wouldn't be caulk between the frame timbers.  Caulk was to prevent water from entering the hull - so it would only be on the deck and hull planking.  (I read somewhere that when a new ship was launched, the head caulker would have to drink all the water that came into the hull! )
 
I wouldn't worry about remaking your frames - they look excellent.  The paper is showing off your excellent construction of the frames!  
 
Clear skies,
Gabe

Anguriel,
 
the thickness of the regular frames is not that important in 1/48 (1'' is 0.5mm in that scale). If you take the medium thickness and make all frames the same it's absolut ok. I think the typical position of the single and double frames and the special frames at midship are typical for an English ship and special for your choosen pattern.
 
But if you like the fun to build it more close to the original ship, do it the more complicated way.
 
I wouldn't you black paper for the frames. The joint is not stable enough. There exist a one layer pulp, which you will find in a hobby store. If you use this the joint is much better.
Black paper should show the caulking. As far as I know there is now caulking between the tmibers of a frame. If you want to higlight the joints, it is better to use brown color which is a little darker than the used timber, Have a look on page 4 in my build log.

Hi,
 
Anobium what a wonderful idea... when you say 3 thick frames at station 0 are you referring to the changes in thickness as we go up? The first biggest problem about this idea is that I still can't understand everything in those kind of plans. But I will try.
 
As for the frame I was building I used black paper to simulate the pitch and tar that was used. This introduced a extra high to the floors, futtocks and top timbers that I was not successful at compensating and one side of one of the halfs is bigger then the other. I also had to compensate the size of the chock and scarphs. Because of this (and Anobium's idea) this frame is now garbage.
I still used this frame to do some testing and to see the final result of using the black paper
 
One half...

 
The other half...

 
And the inside...


 
Now for the treenails. I will try boxwood (same wood as frames) for the treenails and copper wires for the nails. Let's see how it looks

Thanks for the reply, Christian, and everyone for the likes. Good to be back at the dry dock!
 
I found a small error in my layout of the deck clamps. While I was carefully reproducing what was in my main reference, AOTS: HMS Diana, I forgot that I was building the HMS Triton! When I was dry-fitting the planks it soon became obvious that there was a problem: the butt ends were hanging between frames! So, I had to rework the measurements and cut several new planks that now go from centre-to-centre on the frames. Good news was that I could still use parts of the first planks.

 
Cutting the planks accurately was 'interesting'. After carefully marking out the shape I used a CMK resin blade.

 
I glued up the pieces and clamped them into place. After a few hours I checked them out. I had to fix up a small mistake on one end...a small gap that still doesn't look perfect but I will try to fill it once the glue dries thoroughly. I don't normally say this, but it is something that will not likely be seen by anyone! (Shhhh...it will be our secret!

Back at it?
Well, my poor Triton has been sitting idle for almost a year and collecting sawdust from my other addictive hobby - pen-turning. (A dark abyss, but rewarding for the fast results). A victim of this new passtime and the bathroom renovation from hell at my cottage, the deck clamps that I started laying out last January have not been touched in months. I did get a new Proxxon saw blade which I hope will fix my frustrations ripping planks.
 
So, here is the status on the deck clamps:
 
Using The Anatomy of a Ship: HMS Diana I planned out the anchor stock design and realized that, because of the angled cuts, it would be easy to make these run crooked. The lines on this paper are exactly the width I need for the clamps so I am able to lay out the planks nice and parallel, keeping them in place with pins as I go.

Hello there Anguirel,
I decided to put in chocks on frames 5 and C, which would be visible in the final model:
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5761-hms-triton-cross-section-by-gabe-k-196/?p=218064
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5761-hms-triton-cross-section-by-gabe-k-196/?p=221134
I also had the problem of not finding a formula and ended up just picking between two reference sources I had and scaling down.
 
Good luck in your build! Looking forward to reading more.
Clear skies,
Gabe

Hello there Anguirel,
I decided to put in chocks on frames 5 and C, which would be visible in the final model:
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5761-hms-triton-cross-section-by-gabe-k-196/?p=218064
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5761-hms-triton-cross-section-by-gabe-k-196/?p=221134
I also had the problem of not finding a formula and ended up just picking between two reference sources I had and scaling down.
 
Good luck in your build! Looking forward to reading more.
Clear skies,
Gabe

I hear you, Tony!  What I find ironic is that I'm deep in the heart of North America  https://clubrunner.blob.core.windows.net/00000050077/Images/Winnipeg.gif and I'm a nut about Nelson-era ships! Having said that - I've been able to touch the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic Oceans. 
 
I have also found this Triton build has really honed my understanding of ship-building and increased my respect for ship-builders before the industrial revolution.
 
Clear skies!
Gabe

I hear you, Tony!  What I find ironic is that I'm deep in the heart of North America  https://clubrunner.blob.core.windows.net/00000050077/Images/Winnipeg.gif and I'm a nut about Nelson-era ships! Having said that - I've been able to touch the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic Oceans. 
 
I have also found this Triton build has really honed my understanding of ship-building and increased my respect for ship-builders before the industrial revolution.
 
Clear skies!
Gabe

I hear you, Tony!  What I find ironic is that I'm deep in the heart of North America  https://clubrunner.blob.core.windows.net/00000050077/Images/Winnipeg.gif and I'm a nut about Nelson-era ships! Having said that - I've been able to touch the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic Oceans. 
 
I have also found this Triton build has really honed my understanding of ship-building and increased my respect for ship-builders before the industrial revolution.
 
Clear skies!
Gabe