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Thanasis

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    Thanasis reacted to Gbmodeler in Fifie by Gbmodeler - FINISHED - Scale 1:48 - Typical late 1800s Scottish Herring Drifter   
    Cutting out templates for the bulkheads.  These will be glued with rubber cement to basswood plywood and cut our out using a power scroll saw...
     
     

  2. Like
    Thanasis reacted to wefalck in Fifie by Gbmodeler - FINISHED - Scale 1:48 - Typical late 1800s Scottish Herring Drifter   
    Seems that you are not letting your slipway getting cold ...
  3. Like
    Thanasis got a reaction from mtaylor in Identify-name these rigs   
    Hi all. New information came up for the first photo of my initial post. 
    I really don't know how this photo mixed up with the older ones of my archive and feeling responsible for this mistake allow me to make the correction. 
    The photo shows a Gr type of hull known as "Trechantiri" while her rigging, as many mentioned, it's a "staysail schooner", non existence in Gr. traditional rigs though.
    That because the first owner of her was an English person who built the boat right after the ww2 in Greece, with the hull he liked but he rather found suitable to set the "staysail schooner" type as rigs. You might have heard the name of her which is "Strormie Seas".
    A photo of her in a magazine's cover in 1958.
     


    Thx and my apologies.
  4. Like
    Thanasis got a reaction from mtaylor in Identify-name these rigs   
    @Tony Hunt. As I wrote, these types of vessels-rigging were shown in North Aegean Sea at early of 20th century and I guess the photos were taken between 1912 and 1917, around Lemnos Island.
    By that time, Ottoman Empire had lost western territories as a result of the Balkan wars 1912-1913.
    So among others Gr islands of North Aegean Sea were set free and many of former Turkish vessels had come to Greeks.
    As the Navy officer H. M. Denham in his article "Aegean Caiques 1915-1980" (The Mariner's mirror) also writes, “the local shipping was heterogeneous in type of hull and rig".
    However, even by his own eyes ascertainment (he claims had visited Lemnos in 1915), he doesn't quote (naming) any kind of unusual rigging, but just staying describing the typical ones. In fact, the last photo in my first post, is from his article and been titled "Turkish Trehandiri-a very strange and rare rig. Mudros (Lemnos) 1915". (My comment, I doubt even for the hull as Trechantiri, because the shape of the bow).
      So what we see could be interventions and "patches" from Gr sailors, or remnants of an initial type of rigging, but I thought to give it a try, looking for a suitable name.
      Eventually, after also this discussion and realizing that it can't be given a name to all these motley riggings, I think I'll borrow the name of another vessel of that time, settee-rigged and no other info.
    That is "Savouradiko"* meaning in Gr, more or less, something no worth to deal with (discard-junks) 
    Many thanks 
     
    *It comes from Italian word of “zavorra” meaning the ballast of a ship, therefore something worthless.
  5. Like
    Thanasis got a reaction from Tony Hunt in Identify-name these rigs   
    @Tony Hunt. As I wrote, these types of vessels-rigging were shown in North Aegean Sea at early of 20th century and I guess the photos were taken between 1912 and 1917, around Lemnos Island.
    By that time, Ottoman Empire had lost western territories as a result of the Balkan wars 1912-1913.
    So among others Gr islands of North Aegean Sea were set free and many of former Turkish vessels had come to Greeks.
    As the Navy officer H. M. Denham in his article "Aegean Caiques 1915-1980" (The Mariner's mirror) also writes, “the local shipping was heterogeneous in type of hull and rig".
    However, even by his own eyes ascertainment (he claims had visited Lemnos in 1915), he doesn't quote (naming) any kind of unusual rigging, but just staying describing the typical ones. In fact, the last photo in my first post, is from his article and been titled "Turkish Trehandiri-a very strange and rare rig. Mudros (Lemnos) 1915". (My comment, I doubt even for the hull as Trechantiri, because the shape of the bow).
      So what we see could be interventions and "patches" from Gr sailors, or remnants of an initial type of rigging, but I thought to give it a try, looking for a suitable name.
      Eventually, after also this discussion and realizing that it can't be given a name to all these motley riggings, I think I'll borrow the name of another vessel of that time, settee-rigged and no other info.
    That is "Savouradiko"* meaning in Gr, more or less, something no worth to deal with (discard-junks) 
    Many thanks 
     
    *It comes from Italian word of “zavorra” meaning the ballast of a ship, therefore something worthless.
  6. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Harvey Golden in Identify-name these rigs   
    Well said.  We (as English speakers. . . and no doubt other tongues are guilty of this as well) tend to look for our own familiar and comfortable terms to describe things that are actually quite different or entirely misunderstood by ourselves.  I think this is a natural way of processing the new and unknown, but it is liable to folly and overlooking nuance. Perhaps the ideal-- not always attainable-- is to learn the native/local term,  to derive an accurate translation of the term, and to understand it's use and function.  Beyond this, we are really just throwing words around, no?
  7. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Bob Cleek in Identify-name these rigs   
    The terms and phrases "tall ships," "tall ships are coming," "tall ships 20##," and "tall ships challenge" are registered trademarks of The American Sail Training Association (ASTRA.) The term "tall ship" has been registered by ASTRA with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office since 1976. ASTRA reportedly charges 15 to 20 percent of the entire budget of an event to license the use of their "tall ships" trademark.
     
    Perhaps a savvy ship modeling club will trademark the term, "small ships" for use with its next model show!  
  8. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Roger Pellett in Identify-name these rigs   
    Sailing rig nomenclature is regionally dependent.  Names, like the rigs that they referred to were invented by those who used them, without reference to a nautical dictionary.  For example, can anyone explain what a “square rigged bugeye” is; or a “three sail bateau”?
     
    The term “Tall Ship” that I agree is meaningless was taken from John Masefield’s poem:  “I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and the sky, and all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.”
  9. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Tony Hunt in Identify-name these rigs   
    Thank you Thanasis, that's very interesting.  For sure, the naming conventions for sailing vessels (especially small craft) are rocky waters to navigate. 🙂
     
    I get the impression that this is particularly true in the Mediterranean region.  The maritime history goes back thousands of years, there are so many different countries and languages involved, and numerous different shipbuilding and rigging traditions, all of which has led to an amazing number of different types of vessels that have mixed and evolved over the centuries.
     
    Adding to this confusion, at least for English-speaking people, is the strong habit in the English language of co-opting useful words from other languages, often changing their spelling (and sometimes their meaning!) in the process.  Across several hundred years of English mariners sailing the waters of the Med, I have little doubt that there has been a great deal of such cultural appropriation of nautical terms.  From the discussion above, this certainly seems to be the case with the term "Polacca" as an excellent example.  I've no doubt that Bob Cleek has the origin of the term correct with respect to the corsair ships of Murat Reis around 1600 or thereabouts.  However, by the early 1800s it looks like the term was being applied to an entirely different type of vessel with little regard for its original derivation, and by the 1840s it was even being used in the official registers of British shipping.
     
    All of which suggests that the only really correct answer would be to find out what the locals named these vessels.  Which leads me to ask where these photographs come from - are they Greek in origin?  
  10. Like
    Thanasis got a reaction from Tony Hunt in Identify-name these rigs   
    Thank you for your time and your valuable information.
    Too many answers to reply though, so allow me not to reply to each one of you…
    Starting from the term “Jackass-Rig”. There was also here (Gr) a similar term “mule” (or «bastard”) but it was referring to mix up hulls i.e. where a vessel was built with a different bow or stern from what it should be for its type…
    And although the “Jackass-Rig” seems convenient, it doesn’t give the picture or the actual rigging for each vessel.
     
    The term “Galiot” again is not referring to the rigs of a vessel but rather to the shape of hull not to mention me too, that there is also a confusion since I have met that, from nation to nation was also called “Fusta” and “Semi Galley”. At least for the Greeks, the term “Galiot” (Galiota) was used in a vessel similar to Chebeck, back in 1800.
     
    “Polacca-Polacre” (see also Pollaccone) yes it’s a rigging term, although it’s not certain whether refers to a two or three masts vessel with square or triangular sails. I think it was-is used for naming something close to that rigging and give a general idea to someone not familiar to the terms-names of other nations' use…That’s why in my model (Thanks Tony) I name the rigging as “a version of Polacra”.
    I would hardly accept this term for the vessel in photo no2, since to me looks like misset topsail Schooner or misset Bombarda…
     
    So about the term “Bombarda” and “Bombarda Sabatiera”. ”Bombarda” in Gr naval bibliography, is describing either the shape of the hull, or the type of the rigging which was two masts, with four square sail in front 2-3 staysails and a mainsail in aft.
    On the other hand “Bombarda Sabatiera” refers only to the type of rigging where in a type of hull (usually Bombarda and Trechantiri hulls) there are two masts with three square sails in front and a lug sail in aft.
     
    I must admit I didn't expect this interesting and the long discussion, but at least for me, it turns to be a good chance to refresh some of my knowledge…
     
    Thx
  11. Like
    Thanasis got a reaction from Bob Cleek in Identify-name these rigs   
    Thank you for your time and your valuable information.
    Too many answers to reply though, so allow me not to reply to each one of you…
    Starting from the term “Jackass-Rig”. There was also here (Gr) a similar term “mule” (or «bastard”) but it was referring to mix up hulls i.e. where a vessel was built with a different bow or stern from what it should be for its type…
    And although the “Jackass-Rig” seems convenient, it doesn’t give the picture or the actual rigging for each vessel.
     
    The term “Galiot” again is not referring to the rigs of a vessel but rather to the shape of hull not to mention me too, that there is also a confusion since I have met that, from nation to nation was also called “Fusta” and “Semi Galley”. At least for the Greeks, the term “Galiot” (Galiota) was used in a vessel similar to Chebeck, back in 1800.
     
    “Polacca-Polacre” (see also Pollaccone) yes it’s a rigging term, although it’s not certain whether refers to a two or three masts vessel with square or triangular sails. I think it was-is used for naming something close to that rigging and give a general idea to someone not familiar to the terms-names of other nations' use…That’s why in my model (Thanks Tony) I name the rigging as “a version of Polacra”.
    I would hardly accept this term for the vessel in photo no2, since to me looks like misset topsail Schooner or misset Bombarda…
     
    So about the term “Bombarda” and “Bombarda Sabatiera”. ”Bombarda” in Gr naval bibliography, is describing either the shape of the hull, or the type of the rigging which was two masts, with four square sail in front 2-3 staysails and a mainsail in aft.
    On the other hand “Bombarda Sabatiera” refers only to the type of rigging where in a type of hull (usually Bombarda and Trechantiri hulls) there are two masts with three square sails in front and a lug sail in aft.
     
    I must admit I didn't expect this interesting and the long discussion, but at least for me, it turns to be a good chance to refresh some of my knowledge…
     
    Thx
  12. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Tony Hunt in Identify-name these rigs   
    Yes, I think we're making progress here.  I suspect that, just like the "Galiot", the term polacca (in it's various spellings) was applied to some quite different rigs.  The ships of Murat Reis the younger may have been the origin of the name but he sailed a long time ago (1570-1641) so that usage has about a much currency as the Galiots! I think the term was applied much more widely over the following centuries.
     
    It's worth noting that David R MacGregor also provides a detailed review of the rig (he refers to it as a Poleacre) in pages 130-134 of Merchant Sailing Ships 1815-1850. In the early decades of the 19th century this rig was familiar (if not common) in England, presumably as a result of prizes being bought into the British mercantile fleet during the Napleonic wars.  The piece includes a photo of "Peter and Sarah" taken at Padstow in the 1850s, that appears to be the basis of the model pictured above.  It's clear from what he writes that poleacres, or polaccas, came as both brigs and brigantines, and these terms were for a time used somewhat interchangeably, at least in the official shipping records.
     
    Apparently the original research on these ships in English waters was done by Vernon Boyle and published in Vol 18 of the Mariners Mirror under the wonderful title "The Bideford Polackers".  So another spelling appears! 
  13. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Bob Cleek in Identify-name these rigs   
    This is fascinating. I'm learning something here. I think.
     
    Okay. I'm with you now. Sort of. To be fair, Underhill is describing a type of brigantine rig, called a polancca brigantine. I may be misunderstanding your comment, "hence the name," but I'll point out that the word "polacca" is Italian and means "Polish." It refers to "a Pole," i.e. being Polish, rather than to a "pole" as in a mast on a ship or a pole from which a flag flies. The adjective "polacca" referring to sail rigs originally referred to the sail rigs favored by the notorious Dutch-born Barbary pirate leader, Jan Janszoon van Haarlem, AKA Reis Mourad the Younger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon) whose ships carried combinations of lateen-rigged and a gaff-rigged sail on their masts. Holland was then part of the Habsburg Empire and Janzoon obtained a Letter of Marque from his native government. Thus, he flew Habsburg colors when attacking Habsburg enemies, but ran up Barbary States colors and preyed equally on Habsburg allies when the opportunity presented itself.  As a Dutchman by birth, he was captured by Ottomans, converted to Islam, and returned to his pirate trade as a Muslim.  The Habsburg Monarchy and the Poles were allied against the Ottoman Empire in the long-running Ottoman-Habsburg Wars, which may explain why Janzoon, known by a variety of aliases, including "John Barber," might have been given the nickname, "The Pole," although I can't say for sure that he was, but in any event, the distinctive lateen and gaff-rigged sail plans that struck terror in the hearts of European mariners came to be called "The Pole's sails," "Polish sails," or, in Italian, simply "Polacca" and Janzoon was well-known for his extensive use of what mariners came to call the pollaca sail plan. This was the origin of the adjective "polacca," referring to a sail plan employing both a lateen and a gaff sail on the same ship, as in "polacca brigantine" or "polancca" followed by whatever other type of rig it might be.  (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polacca) 
     
    Underhill's discussion of the type correctly notes there were innumerable "polacca" or "Polish" rigs combinations throughout the Mediterranean. What he seems to focus on, writing immediately following the Second World War as the type was waning, was the characteristic that the type carries yards which may "be raised and lowered like Venetian blinds," i.e. in which none of the yards are permanently attached to the mast. In such an arrangement, a fidded mast would certainly not be helpful.  So, yes, the polancca is characterized by an unfidded mast, but the term isn't referring to a "pole" (lower case "p.")  Obviously, a lateen sail's yard (or "antenna" in the original Latin and Italian) also requires a single "pole" mast because it is lowered "like a Venetian blind" and that's where the term originated. Essentially, a "polacca" rigged square sail is one attached to a yard which is hung on a mast in the same fashion as a lateen sail's yard is hung on its mast and may be lowered "like a Venetian blind." And there you have it. 
     
    From my reading of pages 70-72 of Underhill's Deepwater Sail, I must say he does provide a much better explanation of the mechanical meaning of "polacca" than I've seen elsewhere, but it needs be noted that he uses the term "polacca" in distinguishing it as a method of rigging yards, be they square yards or antennae and uses it as an adjective, just as the same word in English, "Polish," is an adjective, to describe, what in the instance he cites, is, was, and always will be a brigantine, as in the phrase he uses: "polacca brigantine." 
     
    Note also that the NMM's description of the "polacca" pictured above repeatedly refers to that model in the British usage as a "brig" and reverts to referring to it in "shorthand' as a "polacca" instead of "polacca brig." The model is not, in American English nomenclature, at least, a "brig," because in American usage a brig is defined by having square sails on both its fore and main masts. A brigantine carries only square-sails on its foremast (no boomed fore and after sails on the foremast,) and a gaff-rigged mainsail on it's mainmast. (Square sails may also be carried on a brigantine's mainmast, most commonly when encountered it's a single topsail, but that is not are not definitive of the brigantine rig in American English.)   
     
    With a nod to your citation to Underhill, I'll amend my answer to say #2 appears to be a polacca brigantine in American English nomenclature and, apparently, a polacca brig in British English usage.  
     
     

     
     
    "Sail plan for a Polacca, first built by the Barbary pirates around the 16th century, many scholars believe the Polacca was extensively used by Jan Janszoon."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon#/media/File:Sail_plan_xebec.svg
  14. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Tony Hunt in Identify-name these rigs   
    Well, I'll again refer to Underhill. Pages 70-72 of Deepwater Sail describes a Mediterranean rig he refers to as a Polacca brigantine, a distinguishing feature of which was that it the square rig was carried on a pole mast (hence the name) with no tops or cross trees.  There is a model of one in the Royal (National) Maritime Museum at Greenwich, see below, interesting that it is a British-registered vessel. 
        SLR 0662   Scale: 1:48? A modern exhibition style waterline model of the merchant brig ‘Peter & Sarah’ (circa 1809) built plank on frame and fully rigged with sails set. This model is complete with scale figures and represents a typical merchant trading brig of the early nineteenth century of about 47 tons gross. The rig is known as a ‘polacca’ where the foremast is a single ‘pole’ spar as opposed the traditional two part upper and lower sectioned type, and the fore course is rigged to a boom rather than loose footed. The ‘Peter & Sarah’ was registered at Bideford, Devon and traded in general cargo around most of the major ports in the British Isles, including pilchards from Newquay to the Mediterranean.  
    Doesn't look like a stretch to me. 😀
     

     
    The resemblance to Thanasis's lovely model of a "Polacra" is striking, too.
     
     
    Aldo Cherini's website looks wonderful, thanks for the link. Hours of detour coming up!
  15. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Bob Cleek in Identify-name these rigs   
    I've never known the presence of a fidded mast to distinguish a type of rig. "To fid or not to fid" depends simply upon the length of the mast and the length of the available tree the mast is made of, so to speak. 
     
    Polacre, or polacca, roughly translated means "Pollock" or "from Poland." (I have no idea if that was a term suggesting that they were indeed from Poland or a 17th century ethnic slur. Goodness knows, I don't want to offend any Poles or persons of Polish descent or be accused of posting "Polish jokes.") They were generally three-masted vessels carrying lateen sails on their foremast and mizzenmast, similar to a xebec, and square sails on their mainmasts, though not always. Some carried two masts and some carried no lateen sails at all. Suffice it to say, it would be really stretching it to call a vessel as pictured in photo #2 a polacre or polacca.
     

    https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/NBM/slides/orig_Polacca.html
     
     
    Truth be told, the closest I've been able to come to any identification of the vessel depicted in #2 is actually an 18th to 19th century Royal Navy bomb ketch, except that the bomb ketch is generally a larger vessel than #2 appears to be, a bomb ketch's mainmast would be stepped farther aft, halfway between the stem and stern, and the general derelict appearance (note the sails) of #2 sure doesn't suggest she's in active naval service. She could have been "sold out," but it's hard to see that there'd be much civilian use to be gotten out of bomb ketch. 
     

    https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/NBP/slides/orig_Bombarda.html
     
    I'll recommend Aldo Cherini's website of Mediterranean vessel ethnography from which the above drawings came... if you want to risk getting detoured for several hours in an incredible "dump" of Italian nautical trivia!   https://www.cherini.eu/ and  https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/NBM/ and https://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/BEU/index.html
     
     
     
  16. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Tony Hunt in Identify-name these rigs   
    For sure, galiot is a term that was applied to many ship types, not an uncommon thing.  However, I'm not convinced that the term jackass-rig is really applicable - as John notes, these are Mediterranean rigs and therefore may well have their own, quite specific names.
     
    Re #2, unfortunately the foresail is masking the transition from lower mast to topmast. In the photo it looks like they don't quite align implying the topmast is fidded, but that may just be an optical illusion.  My point being, that if it is a pole mast then perhaps this is an example of the rig referred to in the Med as a polacre (or polacca) - a bit like the lovely model of Bombarda Sabatiera by Thanasis?  Intriguingly, it looks like there is another example in the left background of picture #3, which to be fair looks more brigantine-like to me. At the very least it appears to have a topgallant!
  17. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Bob Cleek in Identify-name these rigs   
    Indeed the rigged galiot, sometimes-spelled "galiote," model does at first glance appear to carry the same rig as photo #2, but, critically, I believe, photo #2 does not carry a boomed fore and aft sail on the forward mast.  It's "Mediterranean-appearing" hull is no contraindication because, according to one sometimes accurate source, the term "galiot" was used to describe a variety of hull and use-distinguised types of vessel in the 16th through 19th centuries, most notably a "half-galley" with two masts, often lateen-rigged and also propelled with oars in the Mediterranean area in the 16th through 17th centuries, as well as a type of Dutch and German vessel similar to a ketch with rounded ends like a fluyt (as appears to the be case in the picture posted above) in the North Sea in the 17th through 19th centuries, a type of French naval vessel in the 17th through 19th centuries which was distinguished by carrying lateen-rigged sails and a bank of oars as did the earlier "half-galley" galiot, although in some instances with but one mast, a type of horse-drawn canal barge called a "galiote" in France from the mid-17th century through the 19th century, or a localized French flat-bottomed river barge with some sort of simple sail rig used to transport wine in the Anjou region during the same period.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galiot
     
    In other words, it does not appear that the term "galiot" was ever used to specifically describe a rig, but rather was used to describe a variety of vessel, rather than rig, types.
     
    The term "galiot" or "galiote" seems to have been more descriptive of the purpose of the vessel than its rig. Indeed, it seems to have been used to designate lateen-rigged oared galleys as much as anything else. The rigs of the various vessels called "galiots" or "galiotes" seem to be of wide variety, as do both the shapes of their hulls and the uses to which they were put.
     
    Dutch galiot of 1740:
     

     
    https://www.modelships.de/Dutch_Galiot/Dutch_Galiot.htm
     
    Contemporary painting: "A Spanish xebec (center) attacked by two Algerian galiotes" (1738)
     

     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galiot#/media/File:DonAntonioBarcelóConSuJabequeCorreoRindeADosGaleotasArgelinas.jpg
     
    "A Dutch galiot from Willaumez's Dictionnaire de la Marine in the 17th century."
     

     
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galiot#/media/File:Galiote.jpg
     
    "A galiote, or scute, transporting wine on a French river during the 18th century."
     

     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galiot#/media/File:Scute_transportant_du_vin_sur_la_Loire_XVIIIe_s.jpg
     
    The "A Dutch galiot from Willaumez's Dictionnaire de la Marine in the 17th century." and the German-flagged model vessel pictured in the preceeding post carry the same rig, but perhaps on hulls of varying degrees of refinement, although that's hard to ascertain certainly from the pictures. That said, the vessel #2 in the originally post, distinctively unlike these two, does not carry a boomed fore and aft sail on its forward mast. For this reason, and especially as well as because the term "Galiot" does not appear to have been in use for similar vessels (i.e. other than canal barges) beyond the mid-1700's, while rig #2 is a photograph of a vessel necessarily taken almost certainly over a hundred years later, at least, I'm sticking with the label, "brigantine."
     
    In any event, the term "jackass rig" is certainly often appropriate where rig deviations from generally common arrangements occur. For many years, I owned a J. Laurent Giles Vertue sailboat which somewhat uniquely was rigged with a masthead stay from which could be flown a masthead jib as well as a two-thirds staysail, both tacked at the stemhead.
     

     
    While the designer called it a "sloop," others called it a "cutter," and still others called the unusual rig a "slutter." Go figure!  
  18. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Jim Lad in Identify-name these rigs   
    Gentlemen; just a couple of points:
     
    1. Please keep the discussion on a rational and polite basis at all times.  If it degenerates into arguments and name calling it may have to be closed down.
     
    2.  Please also remember that although many of these vessels resemble staysail schooners, they are, in fact, specialised Mediterranean fishing and trading rigs and will have their own special local names, which no one has investigated as yet.
     
    Have fun trying to figure them out! 
     
    John
  19. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Tony Hunt in Identify-name these rigs   
    It's a poor form of discussion when the first resort is to denigrate anyone who disagrees with you. Poorer still to double down on that. And just for the record, I've done many thousands of miles at sea, under sail. 😀 
     
    Anyway, jackasses aside 😁, back to rig #2.  On further reflection, it rather resembles a Galiot (per the model below), although the hull looks much more Mediterranean than North Sea, and I think the Galiot was very much a rig of the North Sea and the Baltic.  I am sure that all these rigs had local names, it would be interesting to know if there was a formal nomenclature for them.
     

     
    The USN Boxer is most undoubtedly a brigantine, no debate there.  It has a fully square-rigged foremast, not a schooners foremast with a couple of square topsails.  The lower mast is short - barely half the height of the lower mainmast, so it sets a forecourse, much wider than it is deep, rather than a square foresail, much deeper than it is wide.  This is topped by a single topsail, a single topgallant and a royal.   In all of that it bears very little resemblance to the rig in #2.
     
    Ketches commonly carried square sails on the foremast in older times.  There are a number of well-known model subjects of such vessels - Speedwell, Granado etc. It's only in more recent times that the ketch rig became a purely fore-and-aft rig.
     
    As DrPR notes, there are many variations on all of these rigs, some of which defy the most fervent taxonomist.  
     
     
  20. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Dr PR in Identify-name these rigs   
    Again I have to agree with Bob Cleek about that "topsail staysail ketch/hermaphrodite brig/brigantine" or whatever you want to call it ((the second picture in Thananasis' original post).
     
    I did find a reference to a "topsail ketch" in the Unusual Rigs chapter of Harold Underhill's Masting and Rigging the Clipper Ship & Ocean Carrier, Brown Son and Ferguson, Ltd., Glasgow, 1972, page 229. Yes, Underhill was British, and we all know they actually think they invented the English language, but I have to be cautious what I say here because my wife was British. Yes dear, who is to say that the British terminology is less valid than any other?
     
    He mentions a "schooner-ketch" and says "Another name, and I think a more appropriate one, is topsail ketch." But, as Bob mentions, a ketch would have a gaff sail on the main (fore) mast. Underhill says "The [main] gaff and boom are proportionately longer than would be the case with the schooner because the mizzen mast is stepped much further aft." Picture 2 doesn't have a boom on the fore mast, so it isn't a true ketch. So maybe it was a ketch-brigantine? But whoever heard that term used?
     
    However, some sources just say a two masted vessel with the fore/main mast taller than the aft/mizzen is a ketch it the mizzen is stepped forward of the rudder. By that definition is is a ketch.
     
    On page 228 Underhill also discusses the staysail schooner with a topsail on the fore mast and asks "Is she a schooner or brigantine? Your guess is as good as mine, for to the best of my knowledge the rig has never been defined and really has no name." ... "Perhaps the best description would be "square-rigged staysail-schooner", anyway the reader can take his choice." He goes on for another half page discussing variants of this rig and what they might be called.
     
    And Bob gets a star for identifying the "fisherman's topsail."
     
    Underhill has 17 pages of "unusual rigs" and it all reinforces my belief that just about anything that was possible to rig has probably floated somewhere at some time. And even common rigs have different names in different places and different times.
     
    ****
     
    In Underhills Sailing Ship Rigs and Rigging, Brown, Son and Ferguson, Glasgow, 1969, page 4 he uses the term "Jackass-Rig" as any unusual combination of masts or sails. So in Thanasis' original post there are pictures of jackass-rig 1, jackass-rig 2, jackass-rig 3 and another jackass-rig 1.
     
    But he does mention the "hermaphrodite brig" with square rigged fore mast (no gaff sail) and fore-and-aft rigged main mast. The illustration shows staysails between the masts. He says the term hermaphrodite brig is no longer used and it is called a brigantine. He shows sail plans for hermaphrodite brigs Raven and Juan De La Vega on page 46 and 48.
     
    He also describes staysail schooners as "... all canvas, with the exception of the main, is set on fore-and-aft stays and saves the weight of spars aloft." The main sail is rigged to a boom, but may be gaff rigged or just a triangular "Bermuda rig." He shows a plan for the very unusual three masted staysail schooner John Williams V."
  21. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Bob Cleek in Identify-name these rigs   
    Interesting information. Obviously a localized type and perhaps now extinct. From the contemporary drawings, the gaff mizzen sail indicated a later evolution. The vessel may indeed be "Ottoman," certainly as the drawings confirm.
     
    Until a better term is discovered, in consideration of it's apparent national origin, why don't we call it a "turkey?"  
  22. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Bob Cleek in Identify-name these rigs   
    To my eye, the mainsail on the brig appears to be tightly furled on the main yard.
     
    You are indeed correct that the Thames barge carries a spritsail rig.
  23. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Tony Hunt in Identify-name these rigs   
    I follow Harold Underhill's guidance when it comes to naming rigs.  I therefore agree with Mark P, I don't think #2 is a brigantine either. More like a topsail ketch, a rare rig but certainly one that existed, although it is strange that it has staysails between the masts rather than a gaff foresail on the foremast.
     
    To be a brigantine it needs to have a fully square-rigged foremast, which typically includes having a fairly short fore (lower) mast. The mast on #2 is more like the foremast of a topsail schooner (except that as the mainmast is shorter than the foremast it can't be a schooner). It's an unusual rig, for sure.  A bit of a dog's breakfast!
     
    Thanasis, nice work on identifying #3. The sketches from the ANZAC soldier nail it, don't they?  I assume this rig must have had a local name, but I'm no expert on naming conventions for Mediterranean rigs so I'll abstain on that one.
     
    I agree that #1 and #4 are fore and aft staysail schooners.
  24. Like
    Thanasis reacted to Dr PR in Identify-name these rigs   
    Mark,
     
    It was not uncommon for topsail schooners to carry a fore course - a square sail suspended from the lower yard. I have seen several examples in books about schooners, such as the French privateer Le Comtesse Emererian 1810, ex privateer Herald or HMS Pictou 1815, HMS Sea Lark and HMS Alban1817, US revenue Cutter Louisiana 1819, and slaver Mary Adeline 1852. Howard Chapelle's "The Baltimore Clipper" has numerous other examples, including drawings from Marestier taken off ships and published in 1824.
     
    A fore course doesn't seem to be common on modern topsail schooners, but some photos (below) of the modern French Navy Belle Poule show her flying a square course with a spar to the clew something like a spinnaker or a studding sail! Note that they also have a water sail on the main boom, so they are spreading a lot of canvas to catch the wind. Like about everything else I have seen about schooner rigging it seems to have been up to the owner's/captain's whim.
     

     
    While I agree that brigantines are supposed to have a taller main mast than a fore mast, what else would you call the second example? I'd call it a topsail ketch but I have never heard that name used!
  25. Like
    Thanasis reacted to amateur in Identify-name these rigs   
    I checked Marquardt, and he does not name the rigs of ships from regions other than the northern European regions. He labels the shiptypes, not the rigs.
     
    I don't know how it is in Turkey, but in the Netherlands, you can sort of classify the shiptypes, but there are many 'in betweens', as ships were always build by a specific builder for a specific buyer. Ie: it was not type x that was agreed upon but a ship 'like the one you build for my neighbor, but I would liketo have it slightly different'. 
     
    I do very much like the (for a Dutchman) rather excentric rigs, and sometimes completely different ways of sailhandling that you see in the mediterranean ships.
     
    Jan
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