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Bob Cleek

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  1. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in What Wax To Use On Rigging Line   
    I'm with Jaager on this one. Given the scarcity of fine quality linen thread these days, the professional museum curators seem to have accepted Guttermann "Mara" polyester thread as sufficiently archival for laying up scale rope for museum models. There is no problem coloring polyester thread with black India ink. India ink is basically lamp black and shellac thinned with water. The shellac will ensure the lamp black sticks and doesn't smear and will also stiffen the line. Clear shellac will do the same for purposes of stiffening the line without changing the color. Quality thread like Gutterman's Mara doesn't have any noticeable "fuzz," the reduction of which was the primary purpose of waxing line in the past. (Fuzz can also be removed by "flaming," running the line quickly through a flame to burn the fuzz off. 
     
    It would seem waxing line is a practice that can be dispensed with entirely if polyester filament thread is used to lay up the line. 
  2. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from thibaultron in What Wax To Use On Rigging Line   
    I'm with Jaager on this one. Given the scarcity of fine quality linen thread these days, the professional museum curators seem to have accepted Guttermann "Mara" polyester thread as sufficiently archival for laying up scale rope for museum models. There is no problem coloring polyester thread with black India ink. India ink is basically lamp black and shellac thinned with water. The shellac will ensure the lamp black sticks and doesn't smear and will also stiffen the line. Clear shellac will do the same for purposes of stiffening the line without changing the color. Quality thread like Gutterman's Mara doesn't have any noticeable "fuzz," the reduction of which was the primary purpose of waxing line in the past. (Fuzz can also be removed by "flaming," running the line quickly through a flame to burn the fuzz off. 
     
    It would seem waxing line is a practice that can be dispensed with entirely if polyester filament thread is used to lay up the line. 
  3. Thanks!
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Snug Harbor Johnny in What Wax To Use On Rigging Line   
    I'm with Jaager on this one. Given the scarcity of fine quality linen thread these days, the professional museum curators seem to have accepted Guttermann "Mara" polyester thread as sufficiently archival for laying up scale rope for museum models. There is no problem coloring polyester thread with black India ink. India ink is basically lamp black and shellac thinned with water. The shellac will ensure the lamp black sticks and doesn't smear and will also stiffen the line. Clear shellac will do the same for purposes of stiffening the line without changing the color. Quality thread like Gutterman's Mara doesn't have any noticeable "fuzz," the reduction of which was the primary purpose of waxing line in the past. (Fuzz can also be removed by "flaming," running the line quickly through a flame to burn the fuzz off. 
     
    It would seem waxing line is a practice that can be dispensed with entirely if polyester filament thread is used to lay up the line. 
  4. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from JFMJr in What Wax To Use On Rigging Line   
    I'm with Jaager on this one. Given the scarcity of fine quality linen thread these days, the professional museum curators seem to have accepted Guttermann "Mara" polyester thread as sufficiently archival for laying up scale rope for museum models. There is no problem coloring polyester thread with black India ink. India ink is basically lamp black and shellac thinned with water. The shellac will ensure the lamp black sticks and doesn't smear and will also stiffen the line. Clear shellac will do the same for purposes of stiffening the line without changing the color. Quality thread like Gutterman's Mara doesn't have any noticeable "fuzz," the reduction of which was the primary purpose of waxing line in the past. (Fuzz can also be removed by "flaming," running the line quickly through a flame to burn the fuzz off. 
     
    It would seem waxing line is a practice that can be dispensed with entirely if polyester filament thread is used to lay up the line. 
  5. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Keith Black in What Wax To Use On Rigging Line   
    Museums are very conservative in their approach to maintaining and restoring those artifacts in their care as well they should. As individuals we have much more latitude in what products we use on our models. Those modelers who are capable of creating museum quality work aren't second guessing what products they use on their models. For those of us that fall outside that group I dare say it matters not as nothing used on our models is going to destroy them in our lifetime. After we're gone it'll be wee hands and the family cat presenting the greatest danger to our creations for in the end, it all turns to dust. 
     
     
  6. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Canute in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't doubt the satisfied testimonials from those who have the mentioned Proxxon woodturning lathe, but to my way of thinking, it's a lot of money to spend on a machine that doesn't do the job any better than a shop-made jig and an electric hand drill.  (Hold your drill in a vise or clamp it to the bench somehow and rig a "pillow block" with a hole in it at the other end clamped to the bench to steady the other end of the stock and prevent whipping.)
     
    An accurate taper on any mast or spar is, in my experience, at least, easily achieved by using a plane to "knock the corners off" down to the proper taper and then finish-sanding it round past eight or sixteen sides, depending upon the size of the spar diameter. If one wants to make sure the taper is fair and not "wavy," as one should, the solution is to sand the spar with a long, flat batten with sand paper attached to it. If the batten is kept flat against the stock as it turning, the taper that is developed will be as fair as the face of the flat batten. You will have to do that to turn a spar on these lathes that have been mentioned. There's no way you will be able to turn a fair taper over the length of a spar using a turning tool on a short tool rest.
     
    Unless one has a lot more need for a milling machine than to work hexagonal flats on wooden sticks, it's a very expensive way to get that job done.  You don't need a mill and if you have the money to buy a mill, you'd get a lot more use out of a Byrnes table saw for less money. It only takes eight passes on the table saw using the taper jig and a "vee-trough sled" to hold the squared stock on edge to take the last four cuts to form the tapered octagon and you'd be done in no time with accuracy to .001 one the Byrnes saw. Don't forget that, although woodturning lathes have less need for tooling, you can expect to put at least as much money into tooling for a metal working lathe or milling machine as you did into the bare bones machine itself, and that's just to do the basic evolutions possible on the lathe or mill. 
     
    Your concern is well-thought out. A woodturning lathe simply spins a stick or block of wood so you can run a cutting tool against it to make shapes.  Neither this Proxxon lathe nor the Chinese offerings pictured will do anything more. They will not cut threads. They cannot be upgraded to cut metal. You can turn wood on a metal cutting ("engine") lathe, but not the other way around. You will spend every bit of $500, and likely closer these days to $800 to purchase a Chinese Sieg "7X" (the longer the better... I think they go up to 7"x14") and the same amount again to get the tooling you'd need to have it do all it can. (You get what you pay for on these. Don't think you're getting a bargain if you see "the same lathe" for a lower price at Harbor Freight or a "flashier" one from MicroMark. They are built to the retailer's specifications and if you buy a cheap one, you are going to have to fettle it yourself to get results anywhere near the accuracy you ought to want. Only buy one from the Little Machine Shop or Grizzly. They stand by theirs.) Sherline and Taig also offer quality machines that will do similar work, albeit on a lighter machine and with less of a selection of after-market (and considerably less expensive) tooling. Those three are your options, the Sieg's being the least costly. You can cut threads on each of them and you can turn wood and metal on all of them. They are far more versatile than a woodturning lathe. If one purchases the Proxxon woodturning lathe or an equivalent, they will have to additionally purchase a separate metal working lathe if and when they want to turn metal or plastics. If they want one, fine. There's nothing wrong with the Proxxon lathe except that it's a lot of money for what little it does and in my opinion that same money would be better spent invested in a more versatile tool.
     
    Unless you want to specifically buy a lathe, in which case I'd definitely say money spent on a metal working lathe is money far better spent than money spent on a woodturning lathe, it seems like all you really need in addition to the drill motor or drill press you already have is a flat stick with some sandpaper glued onto it and perhaps a nice little hand plane. 
  7. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Mark P in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't doubt the satisfied testimonials from those who have the mentioned Proxxon woodturning lathe, but to my way of thinking, it's a lot of money to spend on a machine that doesn't do the job any better than a shop-made jig and an electric hand drill.  (Hold your drill in a vise or clamp it to the bench somehow and rig a "pillow block" with a hole in it at the other end clamped to the bench to steady the other end of the stock and prevent whipping.)
     
    An accurate taper on any mast or spar is, in my experience, at least, easily achieved by using a plane to "knock the corners off" down to the proper taper and then finish-sanding it round past eight or sixteen sides, depending upon the size of the spar diameter. If one wants to make sure the taper is fair and not "wavy," as one should, the solution is to sand the spar with a long, flat batten with sand paper attached to it. If the batten is kept flat against the stock as it turning, the taper that is developed will be as fair as the face of the flat batten. You will have to do that to turn a spar on these lathes that have been mentioned. There's no way you will be able to turn a fair taper over the length of a spar using a turning tool on a short tool rest.
     
    Unless one has a lot more need for a milling machine than to work hexagonal flats on wooden sticks, it's a very expensive way to get that job done.  You don't need a mill and if you have the money to buy a mill, you'd get a lot more use out of a Byrnes table saw for less money. It only takes eight passes on the table saw using the taper jig and a "vee-trough sled" to hold the squared stock on edge to take the last four cuts to form the tapered octagon and you'd be done in no time with accuracy to .001 one the Byrnes saw. Don't forget that, although woodturning lathes have less need for tooling, you can expect to put at least as much money into tooling for a metal working lathe or milling machine as you did into the bare bones machine itself, and that's just to do the basic evolutions possible on the lathe or mill. 
     
    Your concern is well-thought out. A woodturning lathe simply spins a stick or block of wood so you can run a cutting tool against it to make shapes.  Neither this Proxxon lathe nor the Chinese offerings pictured will do anything more. They will not cut threads. They cannot be upgraded to cut metal. You can turn wood on a metal cutting ("engine") lathe, but not the other way around. You will spend every bit of $500, and likely closer these days to $800 to purchase a Chinese Sieg "7X" (the longer the better... I think they go up to 7"x14") and the same amount again to get the tooling you'd need to have it do all it can. (You get what you pay for on these. Don't think you're getting a bargain if you see "the same lathe" for a lower price at Harbor Freight or a "flashier" one from MicroMark. They are built to the retailer's specifications and if you buy a cheap one, you are going to have to fettle it yourself to get results anywhere near the accuracy you ought to want. Only buy one from the Little Machine Shop or Grizzly. They stand by theirs.) Sherline and Taig also offer quality machines that will do similar work, albeit on a lighter machine and with less of a selection of after-market (and considerably less expensive) tooling. Those three are your options, the Sieg's being the least costly. You can cut threads on each of them and you can turn wood and metal on all of them. They are far more versatile than a woodturning lathe. If one purchases the Proxxon woodturning lathe or an equivalent, they will have to additionally purchase a separate metal working lathe if and when they want to turn metal or plastics. If they want one, fine. There's nothing wrong with the Proxxon lathe except that it's a lot of money for what little it does and in my opinion that same money would be better spent invested in a more versatile tool.
     
    Unless you want to specifically buy a lathe, in which case I'd definitely say money spent on a metal working lathe is money far better spent than money spent on a woodturning lathe, it seems like all you really need in addition to the drill motor or drill press you already have is a flat stick with some sandpaper glued onto it and perhaps a nice little hand plane. 
  8. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from JpR62 in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't doubt the satisfied testimonials from those who have the mentioned Proxxon woodturning lathe, but to my way of thinking, it's a lot of money to spend on a machine that doesn't do the job any better than a shop-made jig and an electric hand drill.  (Hold your drill in a vise or clamp it to the bench somehow and rig a "pillow block" with a hole in it at the other end clamped to the bench to steady the other end of the stock and prevent whipping.)
     
    An accurate taper on any mast or spar is, in my experience, at least, easily achieved by using a plane to "knock the corners off" down to the proper taper and then finish-sanding it round past eight or sixteen sides, depending upon the size of the spar diameter. If one wants to make sure the taper is fair and not "wavy," as one should, the solution is to sand the spar with a long, flat batten with sand paper attached to it. If the batten is kept flat against the stock as it turning, the taper that is developed will be as fair as the face of the flat batten. You will have to do that to turn a spar on these lathes that have been mentioned. There's no way you will be able to turn a fair taper over the length of a spar using a turning tool on a short tool rest.
     
    Unless one has a lot more need for a milling machine than to work hexagonal flats on wooden sticks, it's a very expensive way to get that job done.  You don't need a mill and if you have the money to buy a mill, you'd get a lot more use out of a Byrnes table saw for less money. It only takes eight passes on the table saw using the taper jig and a "vee-trough sled" to hold the squared stock on edge to take the last four cuts to form the tapered octagon and you'd be done in no time with accuracy to .001 one the Byrnes saw. Don't forget that, although woodturning lathes have less need for tooling, you can expect to put at least as much money into tooling for a metal working lathe or milling machine as you did into the bare bones machine itself, and that's just to do the basic evolutions possible on the lathe or mill. 
     
    Your concern is well-thought out. A woodturning lathe simply spins a stick or block of wood so you can run a cutting tool against it to make shapes.  Neither this Proxxon lathe nor the Chinese offerings pictured will do anything more. They will not cut threads. They cannot be upgraded to cut metal. You can turn wood on a metal cutting ("engine") lathe, but not the other way around. You will spend every bit of $500, and likely closer these days to $800 to purchase a Chinese Sieg "7X" (the longer the better... I think they go up to 7"x14") and the same amount again to get the tooling you'd need to have it do all it can. (You get what you pay for on these. Don't think you're getting a bargain if you see "the same lathe" for a lower price at Harbor Freight or a "flashier" one from MicroMark. They are built to the retailer's specifications and if you buy a cheap one, you are going to have to fettle it yourself to get results anywhere near the accuracy you ought to want. Only buy one from the Little Machine Shop or Grizzly. They stand by theirs.) Sherline and Taig also offer quality machines that will do similar work, albeit on a lighter machine and with less of a selection of after-market (and considerably less expensive) tooling. Those three are your options, the Sieg's being the least costly. You can cut threads on each of them and you can turn wood and metal on all of them. They are far more versatile than a woodturning lathe. If one purchases the Proxxon woodturning lathe or an equivalent, they will have to additionally purchase a separate metal working lathe if and when they want to turn metal or plastics. If they want one, fine. There's nothing wrong with the Proxxon lathe except that it's a lot of money for what little it does and in my opinion that same money would be better spent invested in a more versatile tool.
     
    Unless you want to specifically buy a lathe, in which case I'd definitely say money spent on a metal working lathe is money far better spent than money spent on a woodturning lathe, it seems like all you really need in addition to the drill motor or drill press you already have is a flat stick with some sandpaper glued onto it and perhaps a nice little hand plane. 
  9. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from jpalmer1970 in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't doubt the satisfied testimonials from those who have the mentioned Proxxon woodturning lathe, but to my way of thinking, it's a lot of money to spend on a machine that doesn't do the job any better than a shop-made jig and an electric hand drill.  (Hold your drill in a vise or clamp it to the bench somehow and rig a "pillow block" with a hole in it at the other end clamped to the bench to steady the other end of the stock and prevent whipping.)
     
    An accurate taper on any mast or spar is, in my experience, at least, easily achieved by using a plane to "knock the corners off" down to the proper taper and then finish-sanding it round past eight or sixteen sides, depending upon the size of the spar diameter. If one wants to make sure the taper is fair and not "wavy," as one should, the solution is to sand the spar with a long, flat batten with sand paper attached to it. If the batten is kept flat against the stock as it turning, the taper that is developed will be as fair as the face of the flat batten. You will have to do that to turn a spar on these lathes that have been mentioned. There's no way you will be able to turn a fair taper over the length of a spar using a turning tool on a short tool rest.
     
    Unless one has a lot more need for a milling machine than to work hexagonal flats on wooden sticks, it's a very expensive way to get that job done.  You don't need a mill and if you have the money to buy a mill, you'd get a lot more use out of a Byrnes table saw for less money. It only takes eight passes on the table saw using the taper jig and a "vee-trough sled" to hold the squared stock on edge to take the last four cuts to form the tapered octagon and you'd be done in no time with accuracy to .001 one the Byrnes saw. Don't forget that, although woodturning lathes have less need for tooling, you can expect to put at least as much money into tooling for a metal working lathe or milling machine as you did into the bare bones machine itself, and that's just to do the basic evolutions possible on the lathe or mill. 
     
    Your concern is well-thought out. A woodturning lathe simply spins a stick or block of wood so you can run a cutting tool against it to make shapes.  Neither this Proxxon lathe nor the Chinese offerings pictured will do anything more. They will not cut threads. They cannot be upgraded to cut metal. You can turn wood on a metal cutting ("engine") lathe, but not the other way around. You will spend every bit of $500, and likely closer these days to $800 to purchase a Chinese Sieg "7X" (the longer the better... I think they go up to 7"x14") and the same amount again to get the tooling you'd need to have it do all it can. (You get what you pay for on these. Don't think you're getting a bargain if you see "the same lathe" for a lower price at Harbor Freight or a "flashier" one from MicroMark. They are built to the retailer's specifications and if you buy a cheap one, you are going to have to fettle it yourself to get results anywhere near the accuracy you ought to want. Only buy one from the Little Machine Shop or Grizzly. They stand by theirs.) Sherline and Taig also offer quality machines that will do similar work, albeit on a lighter machine and with less of a selection of after-market (and considerably less expensive) tooling. Those three are your options, the Sieg's being the least costly. You can cut threads on each of them and you can turn wood and metal on all of them. They are far more versatile than a woodturning lathe. If one purchases the Proxxon woodturning lathe or an equivalent, they will have to additionally purchase a separate metal working lathe if and when they want to turn metal or plastics. If they want one, fine. There's nothing wrong with the Proxxon lathe except that it's a lot of money for what little it does and in my opinion that same money would be better spent invested in a more versatile tool.
     
    Unless you want to specifically buy a lathe, in which case I'd definitely say money spent on a metal working lathe is money far better spent than money spent on a woodturning lathe, it seems like all you really need in addition to the drill motor or drill press you already have is a flat stick with some sandpaper glued onto it and perhaps a nice little hand plane. 
  10. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Rik Thistle in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't doubt the satisfied testimonials from those who have the mentioned Proxxon woodturning lathe, but to my way of thinking, it's a lot of money to spend on a machine that doesn't do the job any better than a shop-made jig and an electric hand drill.  (Hold your drill in a vise or clamp it to the bench somehow and rig a "pillow block" with a hole in it at the other end clamped to the bench to steady the other end of the stock and prevent whipping.)
     
    An accurate taper on any mast or spar is, in my experience, at least, easily achieved by using a plane to "knock the corners off" down to the proper taper and then finish-sanding it round past eight or sixteen sides, depending upon the size of the spar diameter. If one wants to make sure the taper is fair and not "wavy," as one should, the solution is to sand the spar with a long, flat batten with sand paper attached to it. If the batten is kept flat against the stock as it turning, the taper that is developed will be as fair as the face of the flat batten. You will have to do that to turn a spar on these lathes that have been mentioned. There's no way you will be able to turn a fair taper over the length of a spar using a turning tool on a short tool rest.
     
    Unless one has a lot more need for a milling machine than to work hexagonal flats on wooden sticks, it's a very expensive way to get that job done.  You don't need a mill and if you have the money to buy a mill, you'd get a lot more use out of a Byrnes table saw for less money. It only takes eight passes on the table saw using the taper jig and a "vee-trough sled" to hold the squared stock on edge to take the last four cuts to form the tapered octagon and you'd be done in no time with accuracy to .001 one the Byrnes saw. Don't forget that, although woodturning lathes have less need for tooling, you can expect to put at least as much money into tooling for a metal working lathe or milling machine as you did into the bare bones machine itself, and that's just to do the basic evolutions possible on the lathe or mill. 
     
    Your concern is well-thought out. A woodturning lathe simply spins a stick or block of wood so you can run a cutting tool against it to make shapes.  Neither this Proxxon lathe nor the Chinese offerings pictured will do anything more. They will not cut threads. They cannot be upgraded to cut metal. You can turn wood on a metal cutting ("engine") lathe, but not the other way around. You will spend every bit of $500, and likely closer these days to $800 to purchase a Chinese Sieg "7X" (the longer the better... I think they go up to 7"x14") and the same amount again to get the tooling you'd need to have it do all it can. (You get what you pay for on these. Don't think you're getting a bargain if you see "the same lathe" for a lower price at Harbor Freight or a "flashier" one from MicroMark. They are built to the retailer's specifications and if you buy a cheap one, you are going to have to fettle it yourself to get results anywhere near the accuracy you ought to want. Only buy one from the Little Machine Shop or Grizzly. They stand by theirs.) Sherline and Taig also offer quality machines that will do similar work, albeit on a lighter machine and with less of a selection of after-market (and considerably less expensive) tooling. Those three are your options, the Sieg's being the least costly. You can cut threads on each of them and you can turn wood and metal on all of them. They are far more versatile than a woodturning lathe. If one purchases the Proxxon woodturning lathe or an equivalent, they will have to additionally purchase a separate metal working lathe if and when they want to turn metal or plastics. If they want one, fine. There's nothing wrong with the Proxxon lathe except that it's a lot of money for what little it does and in my opinion that same money would be better spent invested in a more versatile tool.
     
    Unless you want to specifically buy a lathe, in which case I'd definitely say money spent on a metal working lathe is money far better spent than money spent on a woodturning lathe, it seems like all you really need in addition to the drill motor or drill press you already have is a flat stick with some sandpaper glued onto it and perhaps a nice little hand plane. 
  11. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from FriedClams in SMS WESPE 1876 by wefalck – 1/160 scale - Armored Gunboat of the Imperial German Navy - as first commissioned   
    There's just no getting used to the level of detail at that scale which you are accomplishing with this model! It's a fascinating piece.
     
  12. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from ferretmary1 in Ship Ribbing with CAD?   
    I believe there are a few kit manufacturers that have done this and sell kits with laser-cut wood for assembly. (See the "sponsors" list on the right side of the forum home page. E.g., Syren Ship Models and Vanguard Ship Models.) Syren Ship Models has a special "installment purchase" group build project for the frigate HMS Winchelsea (1764) going on at the moment. It's a beautiful model and extremely high quality. See:  HMS Winchelsea (1764) by Chuck Passaro|A plank on Bulkhead scratch ship model project|32 gun English frigate (syrenshipmodelcompany.com)
     

    Syren Ship Model Company|Boxwood ship model rigging blocks|Ship Model rigging rope |turned brass cannon| Chuck Passaro
     
    There are a number of forum members doing CAD modeling and publishing their progress in CAD "build logs" which you can review to get a sense of what's involved in what you are asking about. I must confess that I am a "board and tee-square" draftsman and my knowledge of the CAD technology is general and theoretical, but not practical. As do some others, I find that the manual drafting techniques which I learned long ago in school continue to serve me well for my purposes. There are many advantages to CAD drafting, particularly in terms of presentation to untrained eyes. The ability to produce a 3D rotating projection of a shape as complex as a ship's hull that is instantly understood by any viewer is an amazing feature, as is the easy replication of various modifications in the design process. For those of us who were taught to "read" draughts and thus acquired the ability to "see in three dimensions" the shapes depicted in traditional orthographic projection the advanced features of CAD are "overkill" for modeling purposes. In fact, if you are contemplating creating a 3D CAD file of a particular historic vessel, you will have to learn to read the original orthographic projections in order to translate them for loading into your database anyway. (And from what I've seen looking over the shoulders of the CAD wonks who are doing that in this forum, translating draughts into CAD can be quite a challenging task that I've decided is beyond my ability to master in the time I have left in this life!  ) 
     
    To get as good an idea of what you are considering getting into, I suggest you read and follow "CDR Ret's" fascinating "build log" of his digital recreation of SS Galilee, an 1891 merchant brigantine designed by Matthew Turner beginning at:  
    As for laser-cutting wooden parts for a model, I expect Chuck Passaro of Syren Ship Models knows as much about applying that technology to creating parts for ship models as anybody and he has addressed it in his many posts on this forum. I would only say that the specifics of laser-cutting technology are way above my pay grade, but I do know that the primary advantage of laser-cutting is in its ability to repetitively produce large quantities of identically shaped parts. This makes it particularly useful in the manufacturing of multiple ship model kits. On the other hand, if you are scratch-building a "one-off" model, getting out your shaped parts is faster and probably a lot more enjoyable doing it the old-fashioned way than spending hours and hours programming a laser-cutter to then burn the parts according to your data, after which you will have to sand the char off all the edges!  
     
    As for basswood, I expect as you research your options based on the data here in this forum, you will conclude that it is not a prudent choice of species for the purpose you intend. While it's frequently used in lower- and middle-quality range model kits, and as a soft wood it is easily worked, it is really only suitable for painted finishes and presents finishing challenges even then. It is not suitable for fine carving work which requires a fine-grained hard wood such as box or apple, nor for planking that will be finished "bright" (showing the wood's natural color.) Given the sort of model you are interested in building, I expect you will conclude upon further analysis that there are other wood species that are more easily worked, stronger, and, if you intend to finish any of it bright, far more attractive than basswood. Think of it this way: basswood is like the wood 2X4 dimensioned construction lumber is made of and what you are contemplating building is a Steinway piano.  (Don't let the cost of expensive finish wood species scare you off. A ship model requires so little of it that building with cheap wood is a foolish economy in the end.) 
     
    I'm not trying to scare you off at all. I just want to give you what I hope is some direction for finding out what you will probably need to know to get where you want to go. There is always a tendency for newer modelers to "bite off more than they can chew" and there are some significant learning curves to be conquered before anyone can accomplish the incredible level of workmanship that can be seen from what some of the masters of the craft post in this forum. Very few of us will ever achieve such levels of artistic accomplishment, but we all can certainly try. The trick is not to be too hard on ourselves as we journey towards becoming better and better at it nor to discourage ourselves by unreasonable comparisons with prodigies. The greatest enjoyment in modeling ships is simply in the doing of the thing. 
     
     
     
     
  13. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Seventynet in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't doubt the satisfied testimonials from those who have the mentioned Proxxon woodturning lathe, but to my way of thinking, it's a lot of money to spend on a machine that doesn't do the job any better than a shop-made jig and an electric hand drill.  (Hold your drill in a vise or clamp it to the bench somehow and rig a "pillow block" with a hole in it at the other end clamped to the bench to steady the other end of the stock and prevent whipping.)
     
    An accurate taper on any mast or spar is, in my experience, at least, easily achieved by using a plane to "knock the corners off" down to the proper taper and then finish-sanding it round past eight or sixteen sides, depending upon the size of the spar diameter. If one wants to make sure the taper is fair and not "wavy," as one should, the solution is to sand the spar with a long, flat batten with sand paper attached to it. If the batten is kept flat against the stock as it turning, the taper that is developed will be as fair as the face of the flat batten. You will have to do that to turn a spar on these lathes that have been mentioned. There's no way you will be able to turn a fair taper over the length of a spar using a turning tool on a short tool rest.
     
    Unless one has a lot more need for a milling machine than to work hexagonal flats on wooden sticks, it's a very expensive way to get that job done.  You don't need a mill and if you have the money to buy a mill, you'd get a lot more use out of a Byrnes table saw for less money. It only takes eight passes on the table saw using the taper jig and a "vee-trough sled" to hold the squared stock on edge to take the last four cuts to form the tapered octagon and you'd be done in no time with accuracy to .001 one the Byrnes saw. Don't forget that, although woodturning lathes have less need for tooling, you can expect to put at least as much money into tooling for a metal working lathe or milling machine as you did into the bare bones machine itself, and that's just to do the basic evolutions possible on the lathe or mill. 
     
    Your concern is well-thought out. A woodturning lathe simply spins a stick or block of wood so you can run a cutting tool against it to make shapes.  Neither this Proxxon lathe nor the Chinese offerings pictured will do anything more. They will not cut threads. They cannot be upgraded to cut metal. You can turn wood on a metal cutting ("engine") lathe, but not the other way around. You will spend every bit of $500, and likely closer these days to $800 to purchase a Chinese Sieg "7X" (the longer the better... I think they go up to 7"x14") and the same amount again to get the tooling you'd need to have it do all it can. (You get what you pay for on these. Don't think you're getting a bargain if you see "the same lathe" for a lower price at Harbor Freight or a "flashier" one from MicroMark. They are built to the retailer's specifications and if you buy a cheap one, you are going to have to fettle it yourself to get results anywhere near the accuracy you ought to want. Only buy one from the Little Machine Shop or Grizzly. They stand by theirs.) Sherline and Taig also offer quality machines that will do similar work, albeit on a lighter machine and with less of a selection of after-market (and considerably less expensive) tooling. Those three are your options, the Sieg's being the least costly. You can cut threads on each of them and you can turn wood and metal on all of them. They are far more versatile than a woodturning lathe. If one purchases the Proxxon woodturning lathe or an equivalent, they will have to additionally purchase a separate metal working lathe if and when they want to turn metal or plastics. If they want one, fine. There's nothing wrong with the Proxxon lathe except that it's a lot of money for what little it does and in my opinion that same money would be better spent invested in a more versatile tool.
     
    Unless you want to specifically buy a lathe, in which case I'd definitely say money spent on a metal working lathe is money far better spent than money spent on a woodturning lathe, it seems like all you really need in addition to the drill motor or drill press you already have is a flat stick with some sandpaper glued onto it and perhaps a nice little hand plane. 
  14. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in SMS WESPE 1876 by wefalck – 1/160 scale - Armored Gunboat of the Imperial German Navy - as first commissioned   
    There's just no getting used to the level of detail at that scale which you are accomplishing with this model! It's a fascinating piece.
     
  15. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from JeffT in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't doubt the satisfied testimonials from those who have the mentioned Proxxon woodturning lathe, but to my way of thinking, it's a lot of money to spend on a machine that doesn't do the job any better than a shop-made jig and an electric hand drill.  (Hold your drill in a vise or clamp it to the bench somehow and rig a "pillow block" with a hole in it at the other end clamped to the bench to steady the other end of the stock and prevent whipping.)
     
    An accurate taper on any mast or spar is, in my experience, at least, easily achieved by using a plane to "knock the corners off" down to the proper taper and then finish-sanding it round past eight or sixteen sides, depending upon the size of the spar diameter. If one wants to make sure the taper is fair and not "wavy," as one should, the solution is to sand the spar with a long, flat batten with sand paper attached to it. If the batten is kept flat against the stock as it turning, the taper that is developed will be as fair as the face of the flat batten. You will have to do that to turn a spar on these lathes that have been mentioned. There's no way you will be able to turn a fair taper over the length of a spar using a turning tool on a short tool rest.
     
    Unless one has a lot more need for a milling machine than to work hexagonal flats on wooden sticks, it's a very expensive way to get that job done.  You don't need a mill and if you have the money to buy a mill, you'd get a lot more use out of a Byrnes table saw for less money. It only takes eight passes on the table saw using the taper jig and a "vee-trough sled" to hold the squared stock on edge to take the last four cuts to form the tapered octagon and you'd be done in no time with accuracy to .001 one the Byrnes saw. Don't forget that, although woodturning lathes have less need for tooling, you can expect to put at least as much money into tooling for a metal working lathe or milling machine as you did into the bare bones machine itself, and that's just to do the basic evolutions possible on the lathe or mill. 
     
    Your concern is well-thought out. A woodturning lathe simply spins a stick or block of wood so you can run a cutting tool against it to make shapes.  Neither this Proxxon lathe nor the Chinese offerings pictured will do anything more. They will not cut threads. They cannot be upgraded to cut metal. You can turn wood on a metal cutting ("engine") lathe, but not the other way around. You will spend every bit of $500, and likely closer these days to $800 to purchase a Chinese Sieg "7X" (the longer the better... I think they go up to 7"x14") and the same amount again to get the tooling you'd need to have it do all it can. (You get what you pay for on these. Don't think you're getting a bargain if you see "the same lathe" for a lower price at Harbor Freight or a "flashier" one from MicroMark. They are built to the retailer's specifications and if you buy a cheap one, you are going to have to fettle it yourself to get results anywhere near the accuracy you ought to want. Only buy one from the Little Machine Shop or Grizzly. They stand by theirs.) Sherline and Taig also offer quality machines that will do similar work, albeit on a lighter machine and with less of a selection of after-market (and considerably less expensive) tooling. Those three are your options, the Sieg's being the least costly. You can cut threads on each of them and you can turn wood and metal on all of them. They are far more versatile than a woodturning lathe. If one purchases the Proxxon woodturning lathe or an equivalent, they will have to additionally purchase a separate metal working lathe if and when they want to turn metal or plastics. If they want one, fine. There's nothing wrong with the Proxxon lathe except that it's a lot of money for what little it does and in my opinion that same money would be better spent invested in a more versatile tool.
     
    Unless you want to specifically buy a lathe, in which case I'd definitely say money spent on a metal working lathe is money far better spent than money spent on a woodturning lathe, it seems like all you really need in addition to the drill motor or drill press you already have is a flat stick with some sandpaper glued onto it and perhaps a nice little hand plane. 
  16. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from mtaylor in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't doubt the satisfied testimonials from those who have the mentioned Proxxon woodturning lathe, but to my way of thinking, it's a lot of money to spend on a machine that doesn't do the job any better than a shop-made jig and an electric hand drill.  (Hold your drill in a vise or clamp it to the bench somehow and rig a "pillow block" with a hole in it at the other end clamped to the bench to steady the other end of the stock and prevent whipping.)
     
    An accurate taper on any mast or spar is, in my experience, at least, easily achieved by using a plane to "knock the corners off" down to the proper taper and then finish-sanding it round past eight or sixteen sides, depending upon the size of the spar diameter. If one wants to make sure the taper is fair and not "wavy," as one should, the solution is to sand the spar with a long, flat batten with sand paper attached to it. If the batten is kept flat against the stock as it turning, the taper that is developed will be as fair as the face of the flat batten. You will have to do that to turn a spar on these lathes that have been mentioned. There's no way you will be able to turn a fair taper over the length of a spar using a turning tool on a short tool rest.
     
    Unless one has a lot more need for a milling machine than to work hexagonal flats on wooden sticks, it's a very expensive way to get that job done.  You don't need a mill and if you have the money to buy a mill, you'd get a lot more use out of a Byrnes table saw for less money. It only takes eight passes on the table saw using the taper jig and a "vee-trough sled" to hold the squared stock on edge to take the last four cuts to form the tapered octagon and you'd be done in no time with accuracy to .001 one the Byrnes saw. Don't forget that, although woodturning lathes have less need for tooling, you can expect to put at least as much money into tooling for a metal working lathe or milling machine as you did into the bare bones machine itself, and that's just to do the basic evolutions possible on the lathe or mill. 
     
    Your concern is well-thought out. A woodturning lathe simply spins a stick or block of wood so you can run a cutting tool against it to make shapes.  Neither this Proxxon lathe nor the Chinese offerings pictured will do anything more. They will not cut threads. They cannot be upgraded to cut metal. You can turn wood on a metal cutting ("engine") lathe, but not the other way around. You will spend every bit of $500, and likely closer these days to $800 to purchase a Chinese Sieg "7X" (the longer the better... I think they go up to 7"x14") and the same amount again to get the tooling you'd need to have it do all it can. (You get what you pay for on these. Don't think you're getting a bargain if you see "the same lathe" for a lower price at Harbor Freight or a "flashier" one from MicroMark. They are built to the retailer's specifications and if you buy a cheap one, you are going to have to fettle it yourself to get results anywhere near the accuracy you ought to want. Only buy one from the Little Machine Shop or Grizzly. They stand by theirs.) Sherline and Taig also offer quality machines that will do similar work, albeit on a lighter machine and with less of a selection of after-market (and considerably less expensive) tooling. Those three are your options, the Sieg's being the least costly. You can cut threads on each of them and you can turn wood and metal on all of them. They are far more versatile than a woodturning lathe. If one purchases the Proxxon woodturning lathe or an equivalent, they will have to additionally purchase a separate metal working lathe if and when they want to turn metal or plastics. If they want one, fine. There's nothing wrong with the Proxxon lathe except that it's a lot of money for what little it does and in my opinion that same money would be better spent invested in a more versatile tool.
     
    Unless you want to specifically buy a lathe, in which case I'd definitely say money spent on a metal working lathe is money far better spent than money spent on a woodturning lathe, it seems like all you really need in addition to the drill motor or drill press you already have is a flat stick with some sandpaper glued onto it and perhaps a nice little hand plane. 
  17. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from druxey in SMS WESPE 1876 by wefalck – 1/160 scale - Armored Gunboat of the Imperial German Navy - as first commissioned   
    There's just no getting used to the level of detail at that scale which you are accomplishing with this model! It's a fascinating piece.
     
  18. Like
  19. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to Gregory in Proxxon mini lathe verdict   
    I don't know what your buying options are in NZ, but you might do as well with something like this:
     
    Mini Wood Lathe  $36.99 US

     
     
    At little higher cost, but still about half the Proxxon, here is another option.
    Mini Wood Lathe $129.99
     

     
    These machines will have their detractors, and rightly so, but you will have to go past the $500 price point to move into a category  that might get the approval of our tool aficionados.
    I think machines like these will perform as well if not better than the Proxxon.
     
  20. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to allanyed in What Wax To Use On Rigging Line   
    The material of your rigging line will be part of the equation.   In general a wax with neutral pH is best.  As paraffin is alkaline (pH of 9)  it could affect the longevity of the fibers.  How much depends on the type of rope you are using.    Bees wax is typically pH neutral so may be a better way to go if you want to use wax.   In either case, wax will hold dust and very difficult to clean so be sure your model is properly cased.    There has been mention of conservator's wax, hopefully some members can shed more light.
     
    Allan 
  21. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Ras Ambrioso in SMS WESPE 1876 by wefalck – 1/160 scale - Armored Gunboat of the Imperial German Navy - as first commissioned   
    There's just no getting used to the level of detail at that scale which you are accomplishing with this model! It's a fascinating piece.
     
  22. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from Keith Black in SMS WESPE 1876 by wefalck – 1/160 scale - Armored Gunboat of the Imperial German Navy - as first commissioned   
    There's just no getting used to the level of detail at that scale which you are accomplishing with this model! It's a fascinating piece.
     
  23. Like
    Bob Cleek reacted to bigcreekdad in Chopper Lesson Learned   
    I threw my chopper away years ago. Couldn't get a straight vertical cut out of it. Wish there was something else to get perfectly straight vertical cuts.
  24. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from tom q vaxy in Mini Bench Drill Press   
    I have a Vanda-Lay Dremel mototool drill press stand also. I agree, it's far better than the version made by Dremel and the best option out there short of a dedicated benchtop drill press or mill. I have a dedicated new-style Dremel tool mounted in it and haven't noticed any mounting problems. I believe Vanda-Lay may offer different mounting collars for the old-style and new-style Dremel mototools. I gave them a call some time back to ask if they had a mounting collar that would fit a one-inch Foredom handpiece and they said that indeed they did and could provide one on special order. I've never gotten around to ordering one since I have another small combination drill press and milling machine. I'm presently musing about buying the additional parts and turning my Vanda-Lay drill press stand into the full-blown Vanda-Lay combo drill press and X-Y-Z milling machine to use with my Foredom flex shaft machine. I'm curious about the rigidity and accuracy of their new mill/drill and I expect its milling ability is somewhat limited by the power source options. If anybody has one, I'd like to know their thoughts.
     
    The entire Vanda-Lay line, which keeps growing, seems extremely clever and reasonably priced. The fit and finish of the entire system, which is entirely CNC-machined aluminum and stainless steel (I think the support post rods are, as I recall.) is perfectly executed. Their system keeps growing. After expanding their milling stand to include a Z-axis, they now have accessories that turn it into a wood turning lathe, a grinding stand, a table router, circular cut-off saw, and grinding and buffing mandrel. Over the years I've acquired more dedicated small power tools than I have time to use and hardly need any of the Vanda-Lay system products because I already have dedicated machines to do all this combination system does, but I still want one because they are just so darn neat.  I would say that, regrettably, their main limitation is their dependence upon the Dremel mototool as a primary power source. The option of using the Foredom flex-shaft instead would, I anticipate, be a great improvement. Beyond that, if Vanda-Lay can ever develop their own foot-controlled variable-speed and reversible higher-powered and more compact and balanced power source, they'd be on their way to having an excellent candidate for the model engineering power tool niche once occupied by the venerable Unimat system which has been vacant for decades now.
  25. Like
    Bob Cleek got a reaction from CDR_Ret in Ship Ribbing with CAD?   
    I believe there are a few kit manufacturers that have done this and sell kits with laser-cut wood for assembly. (See the "sponsors" list on the right side of the forum home page. E.g., Syren Ship Models and Vanguard Ship Models.) Syren Ship Models has a special "installment purchase" group build project for the frigate HMS Winchelsea (1764) going on at the moment. It's a beautiful model and extremely high quality. See:  HMS Winchelsea (1764) by Chuck Passaro|A plank on Bulkhead scratch ship model project|32 gun English frigate (syrenshipmodelcompany.com)
     

    Syren Ship Model Company|Boxwood ship model rigging blocks|Ship Model rigging rope |turned brass cannon| Chuck Passaro
     
    There are a number of forum members doing CAD modeling and publishing their progress in CAD "build logs" which you can review to get a sense of what's involved in what you are asking about. I must confess that I am a "board and tee-square" draftsman and my knowledge of the CAD technology is general and theoretical, but not practical. As do some others, I find that the manual drafting techniques which I learned long ago in school continue to serve me well for my purposes. There are many advantages to CAD drafting, particularly in terms of presentation to untrained eyes. The ability to produce a 3D rotating projection of a shape as complex as a ship's hull that is instantly understood by any viewer is an amazing feature, as is the easy replication of various modifications in the design process. For those of us who were taught to "read" draughts and thus acquired the ability to "see in three dimensions" the shapes depicted in traditional orthographic projection the advanced features of CAD are "overkill" for modeling purposes. In fact, if you are contemplating creating a 3D CAD file of a particular historic vessel, you will have to learn to read the original orthographic projections in order to translate them for loading into your database anyway. (And from what I've seen looking over the shoulders of the CAD wonks who are doing that in this forum, translating draughts into CAD can be quite a challenging task that I've decided is beyond my ability to master in the time I have left in this life!  ) 
     
    To get as good an idea of what you are considering getting into, I suggest you read and follow "CDR Ret's" fascinating "build log" of his digital recreation of SS Galilee, an 1891 merchant brigantine designed by Matthew Turner beginning at:  
    As for laser-cutting wooden parts for a model, I expect Chuck Passaro of Syren Ship Models knows as much about applying that technology to creating parts for ship models as anybody and he has addressed it in his many posts on this forum. I would only say that the specifics of laser-cutting technology are way above my pay grade, but I do know that the primary advantage of laser-cutting is in its ability to repetitively produce large quantities of identically shaped parts. This makes it particularly useful in the manufacturing of multiple ship model kits. On the other hand, if you are scratch-building a "one-off" model, getting out your shaped parts is faster and probably a lot more enjoyable doing it the old-fashioned way than spending hours and hours programming a laser-cutter to then burn the parts according to your data, after which you will have to sand the char off all the edges!  
     
    As for basswood, I expect as you research your options based on the data here in this forum, you will conclude that it is not a prudent choice of species for the purpose you intend. While it's frequently used in lower- and middle-quality range model kits, and as a soft wood it is easily worked, it is really only suitable for painted finishes and presents finishing challenges even then. It is not suitable for fine carving work which requires a fine-grained hard wood such as box or apple, nor for planking that will be finished "bright" (showing the wood's natural color.) Given the sort of model you are interested in building, I expect you will conclude upon further analysis that there are other wood species that are more easily worked, stronger, and, if you intend to finish any of it bright, far more attractive than basswood. Think of it this way: basswood is like the wood 2X4 dimensioned construction lumber is made of and what you are contemplating building is a Steinway piano.  (Don't let the cost of expensive finish wood species scare you off. A ship model requires so little of it that building with cheap wood is a foolish economy in the end.) 
     
    I'm not trying to scare you off at all. I just want to give you what I hope is some direction for finding out what you will probably need to know to get where you want to go. There is always a tendency for newer modelers to "bite off more than they can chew" and there are some significant learning curves to be conquered before anyone can accomplish the incredible level of workmanship that can be seen from what some of the masters of the craft post in this forum. Very few of us will ever achieve such levels of artistic accomplishment, but we all can certainly try. The trick is not to be too hard on ourselves as we journey towards becoming better and better at it nor to discourage ourselves by unreasonable comparisons with prodigies. The greatest enjoyment in modeling ships is simply in the doing of the thing. 
     
     
     
     
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