American sailing warships with no plans or records

[CharlieZardoz]

Talos has there been any progress on the plan for John Adams after sloop of war conversion?

 

And wow look at those sloops! Were some of those conjectural brigs used? I don't see Boxer among those listed.

Edited December 25, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

I...crap, in my overzealous quest to even the two sheets, I must have missed it. I'll update the sheets later and add it. As far as I know, none of the proposed brigs were built, the USN doing it's normal neglect of small ships.

I've been busy and totally slacked on John Adams. Did other ones recently, completing the Bittern Crane, the original Macedonian, Epervier, a gun brig, revenue cutter Morris, and doing work on the second Macedonian, Brandywine, Sabine/Santee, and a few odds and ends.

EDIT: Oh, wait Boxer (as in the later one) is on one of my schooner sheets.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Talos

[uss frolick]

The 1815 Brig USS Boxer may have been one of the two unnamed brigs shown above. The unnamed 18-gun brig has the unusual feature of having ten broadside ports, plus a bridle port. Makes her look quite powerful! The only other brig so equipped was the 1803 Argus, as rebuilt in 1811, when they added an extra pair of ports and carronades.

[Talos]

I typed the last without my references. Chapelle thought that the unnamed 16-gun brig is Boxer, while the 18-gun was the plans for Saranac and Chippewa, as both were said to have two more guns than their ratings (14 and 16 guns respectively), without filling the bridle ports. These would be powerful brigs, with a pair of long 18s, long 12s, and the rest of their guns being 32-pdr carronades. Sailed well, but they were made of green timber and rotted very quickly.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Hmm, I'm not sure but the ship draught I am inquiring about is this one, the Boxer 1831 Enterprise and Experiment which doesn't look like the 16 gun brig to my eyes. Actually I think it is similar to the "brigantine based on Dolphin" but can't be that one since it's from 1835, but like an improved version or some sort yes?

Edited December 25, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Well yes, multiple ships with the same name.

 

In any case, as the 1831 Boxer was built as a schooner, I had her on the schooner sheet (just like Vixen).

 

EDIT: That top plan you have is likely Enterprise. Chapelle notes some differences from Boxer, including the missing molding under the gunports and the lack of curved rail coming from the head to the knightheads.

 

The closer one to Humphreys' design for Boxer (while not being an exact ancestor) is his 88' brigantine (in my sheet it's the one after the Brigantine based on Dolphin), which was one of a number of small sip designs he made, including studies of schooners between 100' down to 88'.  That Brigantine based on Dolphin is just a simple lengthening of the brig, but it features the correct body plan Dolphin was built to, not the original lines visible in the plans.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Ah yes there it is! I understand now the schooner rig isn't immediately apparent of course but that makes sense now seeing this list. I guess in the same way the brig waned in usefulness after the 1830s the schooner was even less utilized as the sloop of war and steam ships became the backbone of the navy. So did this Boxer class remain schooners their entire career? Also Grampus is such a lovely looking schooner and some of these others I'm reading about right now never noticed them before. Cool stuff.

Edited December 25, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Ah yes there it is! I understand now the schooner rig isn't immediately apparent of course but that makes sense now seeing this list. I guess in the same way the brig waned in usefulness after the 1830s the schooner was even less utilized as the sloop of war and steam ships became the backbone of the navy. So did this Boxer class remain schooners their entire career? Also Grampus is such a lovely looking schooner and some of these others I'm reading about right now never noticed them before. Cool stuff.

 

Grampus is a favorite  of mine, I love her lines. Such an elegant schooner. As far as Boxer and her sisters, they were all converted into brigs. Heavily overloaded with guns and boats, they had a large sail area and were considered tender, but good sailors. That was the case of most of the late US brigs, which all were extreme designs. Two even were lost to capsizing.

 

The Navy never really loved the schooner rig. They tended to buy them when needed and get rid of them quickly. There was always a surge of popularity around wartime, like the War of 1812, but they didn't last long after that. Several were converted to brigs, like Enterprise, Vixen, and Boxer, while others were simply gotten rid of, or lost (they had a higher loss rate than the larger ships). While the brig has several advantages over the schooner, including better performance on a wider range of wind directions, much better ability to cope with battle damage, and more maneuverability, I get the feeling that to the USN, the schooner was never a "proper" navy design. The Navy wasn't really much for small ships anyway, instead purchasing many of them for a specific mission, like the Anti-piracy operations in the Carribean, or anti-slavery patrols for the Africa Squadron (this mission was done by the naval construction ones instead). By the time you get to the 1830s-1840s, the sloop (which has grown larger and larger) is the backbone of the US Navy alongside the heavy frigates of the Brandywine class, pushing out schooners and brigs from above.

[uss frolick]

Correspondence involving the conversion of the 1799 Enterprise from a schooner into a brig following her 1811 repair, states that it was done to make her a "more stable gun platform". This was done on her then commander's initiative (Lt. Johnston Blakeley), and it was approved by Washington Navy Yard's commandant, Capt. Thomas Tingey, and then SecNav Paul Hamilton signed off on it.

[CharlieZardoz]

I suppose it was to help the ships appear more like menacing warships since the US fleet was so much smaller than the British or French the idea of making our small fleet look more imposing must have been a factor. I mean the Continental navy was comprised largely of sloops and galleys, then we upgraded to schooners then brigs then sloops, building what was essentially affordable with a few superships scattered about. Regarding Enterprize I imagine she must have looked something like Prince De Neufchatel by the time of 1815-1820 after all her rebuilds. Could be wrong on that but with so many possible changes I could imagine the two might have looked similar.

[Talos]

I suppose it was to help the ships appear more like menacing warships since the US fleet was so much smaller than the British or French the idea of making our small fleet look more imposing must have been a factor. I mean the Continental navy was comprised largely of sloops and galleys, then we upgraded to schooners then brigs then sloops, building what was essentially affordable with a few superships scattered about. Regarding Enterprize I imagine she must have looked something like Prince De Neufchatel by the time of 1815-1820 after all her rebuilds. Could be wrong on that but with so many possible changes I could imagine the two might have looked similar.

 

You also have the problem of finding enough commands for the higher ranking officers too. Can't have a Captain commanding a brig, after all. But certainly a large part of it is small fleet syndrome: they'll never have the numerical advantage, so each hull has to be as useful and powerful in that class as they can be. That's a big part of the reason for the 44s in the first place.

[Story]

How about the USS Repulse, 8 gun xebec originally built in 1775 for the Pennsylvania Navy and loaned to the USN in April 1777?

Failed to make the run past Philadelphia in November 1777, scuttled.

No Further Information.

[trippwj]

Let me just interject a word of caution concerning the semantics of the time.  It is important to keep in mind that for the period under discussion (1770 - 1840), the term "Sloop of War" had absolutely nothing to do with the rig the vessel carried.  A "Sloop of War" was anything smaller than the smallest rated war ship (generally a 20 gun 6th rate).  In the American nomenclature, the early definition was quite similar.  The rig was immaterial - there were Brig Sloops of War, Schooner Sloops of War.  During the period of interest, terminology concerning the rig was much less precise and varied regionally.  Standardization would have to wait the development of the more bureaucratic navy during the mid 19th century.

[CharlieZardoz]

Hi guys! So yeah I'm back after a bit of a long hiatus which consisted mainly of getting my business on track plus I have a busy nightlife in performance art.  I've been tinkering a lot with laser templates (which an update will be posted shortly for the cutter) but also been doing a lot of research and immersion. Sometimes a break from ones hobbies helps offer perspective. So with that out of the way, nice to be back (and wow the site is real different now lol). For this page my plan is to start making some templates on how various ship sterns and bows might have looked. First off is Potomac which I got started but not sure about quite a few details. I took the initial steps on the windows and overlaying the detailing from the builder plans. So lets have fun and happy to hear your informative opinions. I'm not sure about the windows if they should have one or two horizontal bars. I'm also assuming that the stern had mullion pillars like Constitution? Also I'm seeing a shadowy vertical detail that looks similar to the stern plan of Columbus, open to thoughts as to what sort of plant or scrolling that might be? What I'm seeing is a lot of navy ships from 1820 onward had a repeat of basic imagery, stars, eagles, wreaths, etc. A lot of the problems i'm having is the contemporary source materials I currently have are images from books that are 2" or so large. If larger versions of the source material exists for viewing would like to check it out. I'd like to do similar to Congress, Brandywine, Constellation, Chesapeake and other similar ships trying to get as close as possible to what they may have looked like.

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[CharlieZardoz]

This was the portrait of USS Constellation mentioned to me a ways back 1825 when she hit a storm and you can see she has a stern similar to the Java/Constitution/Potomac stern style with 3 windows. Anyone know more about this portrait if I may be able to find a better quality pic of it? Would love to see a closeup to the detailing it looks similar to the 16 gun sloops of 1838 in Chapelle's book page 403. 

[CharlieZardoz]

Next up is Brandywine, I see a x shape in the center and two figures by the quarter galleries, some other eagle-ish looking carving above the x.

[CharlieZardoz]

Here is Chesapeake. I'd like to draw these carvings over the admiralty plans however I believe the history was that the stern was hastily reconstructed with many of the carvings removed before her capture? If I wanted to put a template together for a model should I assume the ship still had "mullions" (assuming that's the right term) at the time of her capture? I'll keep working on these and add as I find more info out. Cheers!

Edited September 3, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[CharlieZardoz]

Eventually I will visit the model of Congress in Norfolk. The only stern decoration I've even seen is from the 1991 film (looks like some eagle carving). I'd like to track down and visit a lot of model exhibits over the next few years as I'm hopeful the model makers did some of the research to help me make some inferences as to what the ship probably looked like.  

 

Edited September 3, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Www.tineye.com is a good resource for tracking down the source of any image OR finding a better version of it. To get this image I clicked on then saved the picture posted above, went to tineye.com and uploaded the picture with a single click. Tineye comes back instantly with every version of the image available on the web, and convently they give the number of pixels for each choice so you can chose the biggest one. AND they give you the link to the website that has the image.

[Talos]

I would imagine that Congress' carvings are probably a lot like her contemporary Jamestown, which has a very, very similar stern design.

 

http://usgwarchives.net/va/portsmouth/shipyard/ships/jamestown/jamestown4.jpg

 

I'm also reminded of this painting you linked a few years back.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/uploads/monthly_06_2015/post-15936-0-73522300-1434438090.jpg

 

Also welcome back!

[CharlieZardoz]

Yay glad to be back! And yay on that website link, should keep me occupied tracking stuff down. That Constellation in the storm looks a lot like the Dale class 1838 sloops from Chapelle's book, any idea when it was painted? Yeah I agree Jamestown and Congress are likely similar. Seeing the model of Congress should probably answer most of my questions provided the builder tried their best to be historical, Ill take a trip to Norfolk in the spring, however I'm also hoping someone else has those pics and can save me a trip.  

 

Also anyone want to hazard a guess on what that x shape probably was on Brandywine? My plan is to start drawing an overlay on the stern lines similar to what Chapelle did for Raritan then start to fill it in with detailing.

[uss frolick]

I'm happy to see such a clear view of the Constellation painting! It was listed as "lost" for many years, so perhaps somebody located it.

 

I still wonder if the beloved Essex didn't get that stern too, when she was rebuilt in 1809. She traded in her six windowed stern (if the builder's glazier's bill is to be believed) for one with eight counter timbers (if Washington Naval Constructor Josiah Fox is to be believed), i.e., a new stern with either seven, five or three windows, the latter like the above. Imagine a counter timber on each side of all three windows of the Potomac, plus another pair for the extremities, and you get eight. Portia Takakjian's research on the Essex tells us that when she set sail in 1812, the Essex carried six 12-pounder chase guns - three on the gun-deck, and three on the spar-deck. Was this a crowded, foolhardy attempt to run all six chasers out the stern at the same time in an emergency?

Edited September 3, 2017 by uss frolick

[CharlieZardoz]

Hi frolick! Hope all is well  I am curious regarding Essex, there is that stern from Anatomy of the ship book then the one from Chapelle's book aka the british admiralty plan, so I assume Essex had five windows as such? Below for a bit of fun I lined up Potomac and Congress you can see how much longer the stern was for Congress

[uss frolick]

Essex has no stern drawings. If the Admiralty took off any plan it has not survived. Portia reconstructs only the 1799 stern with her original six windows, and seven counter timbers, in AOTS. In her earlier book (pamphlet actually) the Essex has five windows, with six counter timbers.

Edited September 3, 2017 by uss frolick

[Talos]

If it had five windows, I imagine her reconstruction was likely based on Chapelle's.

 

 

Uploading a pair of redrawings I did recently, the proposed 74 from the Revolution. Interesting ship, size-wise she matches up with what the British would call the Large-class. Just for fun, and because I always thought they were interesting (I blame Gardiner's book on Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars), I did a hypothetical razee in that style. The bow and stern are taken from Franklin's "as-built" profile and I think they really capture the same feeling as HMS Saturn's razee. I also recently was reading Millions for Defense, about the subscription frigates, which has me thinking about Boston, John Adams, and ones we don't have plans for. I wonder what we're missing with those ships and which of the "unnamed" plans in Chapelle match up with them, if any.

[CharlieZardoz]

That's pretty neat and also regarding the later "improved 74" I sorta imagine the stern drawing on that one to be similar to what United States looked at launching. Based on what drawings exist of the frigate it seemed to have a similar style balcony plus the design itself feels like a scaled up version of the super frigates or thus the frigates were "razed" versions of the 74 lol

 

And yeah that's the stern of Essex I am familiar with so I am assuming that was a merely a reconstruction? If so could she also have had additional carvings the drawing doesn't depict? This is 1812+ version of Essex that is...

[Seahawk1313]

Hello,  Brandywine stern "X" maybe crossed swords?- Hal

[uss frolick]

The carvings on Chapelle's Essex are a close copy of a very rough ink sketch by Samuel McIntire (the Salem man who carved the Essex's figurehead, etc.) of the stern of an unknown merchant ship, currently held in the Peabody Museum of Salem. The sketch shows no windows. Another McIntire sketch, equally small, unidentified and rough, shows an official seal over a stack of flags/arms in the center, with cornucopias on either side, surrounded with a lot of vinery or "flora-nonspecificus".  McIntire used an "eagle, wings pointed downward, on top of a seal, over a stack-of-arms" motif on many surviving fireplace mantels in the city. I suspect a version this is what Essex bore on the center of her taffrail. What very little that survives of McIntire's ship-carving ideas, shows that he didn't put any human figures on the taffrails. McIntire is known today for his carved eagles. One of the few actual carved items of his that survive, is a detailed seal of the state of Massachusetts, that hung in an open public place. The Indian in the center of the seal looks like the Essex's figurehead in the famous portrait. Books on McIntire's works (mostly house-carvings) show these examples.

 

Five windows was probably just Chapelle's guess, based perhaps on the Chesapeake.

[Seahawk1313]

Hi Steve,  Description of the Essex stern is what I had,  with 4 cannon barrels coming out behind the shield..  I have been looking for books on McIntires' carvings ,  do you have any titles?  Hal

[uss frolick]

One old book I read was "The wood carver of Salem; Samuel Mcintire, his life and work", by Frank Cousins, from 1916. It is nearly all about his house carvings. 

 

Here is a free ebook: The pics are small, but look at the fireplace mantel photo before page 91. A good McIntire eagle is on a building before p. 143. The big coat of arms is the plate before p.141.

 

https://archive.org/details/woodcarverofsale00cous

 

There is a newer McIntire book out, but it is an expensive coffee table book.