American sailing warships with no plans or records

[Talos]

Aww, thanks. Year is still young though! Hopefully we can keep at it. I think threads like this have been good for scholarship of antebellum US Navy ships in general. I know I've learned a lot in it.

 

I was thinking of Constitution's modern stern and that flattened arch on it again. Such a weird shape. Looking through plans in Chapelle, I noticed it popping up in a bunch of proposed smaller ships in the early 1830s, as well as the Boxers and possibly Peacock's rebuild as well.

[uss frolick]

Would a flattened arch be called a "flarch"?

[Chapman]

Mr. Frolick, Sir!

I love your sense of humor.

 

 

[CharlieZardoz]

They have corrective surgery for that

Edited September 17, 2017 by CharlieZardoz

[michaelpsutton2]

I do not know if I need a new topic but.....

 

USS Wasp 1806 would include quarter davits?

 

Has anyone seen a list of boats for this or a similar vessel?

[uss frolick]

No quarter davits on sloops of war at this period. Frigates and liners only, but American sloops would get them about the 1820-30's.

 

In a letter written by none other than the the Wasp's victorious 1812 commander, Jacob Jones, after the epic HMS Frolic fight, he reported to the Secretary of the Navy that he saw HMS Poictiers approaching him bow on, and at a distance. He could tell nothing of her force at that time, he explained, but since she carried quarter boats, he had reasoned, she could only have been a frigate or a ship of the line. She was the latter, of course, and she captured the still shattered Wasp.

 

Let me check on those boats ...

[uss frolick]

The Wasp of 1806 had, at least, the following:

 

a 21 foot whaleboat

a 20 foot cutter

a 25 foot (or possibly 26 foot) launch

 

(Original Research by Herb Ebsen and Russ Aller from the 1980's. From the four part series in Ships and Scale Magazine, from the 1990's.Their sources unknown.)

 

According to an 1814 bill submitted to the navy, the USS Frolick, built in Charlestown, MA, in 1813, had, at least, and certainly more, "2 boats 1st and 2nd cutter & oars [which cost] $417.70." No dimensions given. They paid another contractor $51 and change to paint them. The Frolick (and the Wasp II of 1813) was 13 feet longer, and carried four more guns, than the 1806 Wasp.

 

The 1813 Wasp had at least three boats, dimensions not given, from two bills.

 

"1 cutter and 1 stern boat & 24 oars" for $385.60.

and

"1 cutter & painting boats and oars" for for $256.80.

 

In 1832, the Sloop-of-War John Adams carried 7 boats. Their complete dimensions are given in the appendices of Chapelle's 'The History of the American Sailing Navy', p.504. JA was 23 longer on deck than the 1806 Wasp. On p.505 he shows the plans for the boats of the new Frigate Potomac, launched 1829, whose lines could be scaled down. Wasp 1806 and Potomac were both built in the Washington Navy Yard.

 

I have the lines drawing, dated Boston, 1816, for a replacement cutter built by John Wade for the Frigate Congress. This I believe is the oldest US Navy ship boat lines drawing. It was misfiled in the National Archives with the plans of the later 1839 Congress!

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by uss frolick

[Talos]

4 hours ago, uss frolick said:

The Wasp of 1806 had, at least, the following:

 

a 21 foot whaleboat

a 20 foot cutter

a 25 foot (or possibly 26 foot) launch

 

(Original Research by Herb Ebsen and Russ Aller from the 1980's. From the four part series in Ships and Scale Magazine, from the 1990's.Their sources unknown.)

 

According to an 1814 bill submitted to the navy, the USS Frolick, built in Charlestown, MA, in 1813, had, at least, and certainly more, "2 boats 1st and 2nd cutter & oars [which cost] $417.70." No dimensions given. They paid another contractor $51 and change to paint them. The Frolick (and the Wasp II of 1813) was 13 feet longer, and carried four more guns, than the 1806 Wasp.

 

The 1813 Wasp had at least three boats, dimensions not given, from two bills.

 

"1 cutter and 1 stern boat & 24 oars" for $385.60.

and

"1 cutter & painting boats and oars" for for $256.80.

 

In 1832, the Sloop-of-War John Adams carried 7 boats. Their complete dimensions are given in the appendices of Chapelle's 'The History of the American Sailing Navy', p.504. JA was 23 longer on deck than the 1806 Wasp. On p.505 he shows the plans for the boats of the new Frigate Potomac, launched 1829, whose lines could be scaled down. Wasp 1806 and Potomac were both built in the Washington Navy Yard.

 

I have the lines drawing, dated Boston, 1816, for a replacement cutter built by John Wade for the Frigate Congress. This I believe is the oldest US Navy ship boat lines drawing. It was misfiled in the National Archives with the plans of the later 1839 Congress!

 

 

 

 

Chapelle mentions in that book that ship sloops in the War of 1812 usually carried 4-6 boats and brigs 3-4. He doesn't go into more detail than that, unfortunately. It's halfway down page 504 at the end of the entry on USS President's boats in 1806.

[CharlieZardoz]

Hi guys. Its my understanding that Wasp was originally intended to be a schooner rig like Syren or Argus being only 10' larger. Im assuming the quarter davits were added as sloops became larger and more "ship like" there would be reason for them to have davits like frigates. Interesting question though heres a model of Wasp as I know her to be.

[Talos]

4 minutes ago, CharlieZardoz said:

Hi guys. Its my understanding that Wasp was originally intended to be a schooner rig like Syren or Argus being only 10' larger. Im assuming the quarter davits were added as sloops became larger and more "ship like" there would be reason for them to have davits like frigates. Interesting question though heres a model of Wasp as I know her to be.

Actually, Wasp (and Syren and Argus) were all brigs. Wasp and Hornet were converted to ship-rigs and then of course the follow-on Wasp and Argus-types were all ship-rigged.

[uss frolick]

Fun fact: Very briefly in 1814, Master Commandant Lewis Warrington re-rigged his Sloop-of-War Peacock, while at sea, into a bark, to disguise his identity, confirmed by British Admiralty intel reports.

[michaelpsutton2]

So one on the stern davits and two probably nested in the waist. Did the US Navy tow the when in combat as some British commanders were wont to do?

[uss frolick]

I would say three in the waist, and one in the stern davits, if they were available. I suspect Frolick picked up a used boat in the Boston Navy Yard, while the Wasp II  could have grabbed one in Portsmouth, NH. (Borrowed pre-existing boats might not have made it onto the sloops's official cost ledger.) When the Wasp defeated HMS Reindeer, Midshipman David Geisinger noted that afterwards they took on board Reindeers gig which had been towing astern. Was this to augment a wartime scarcity omitted when they fitted out in Newburyport, or was one or more of the Wasps boats damaged in that  intense and bloody battle?

Edited October 24, 2017 by uss frolick

[michaelpsutton2]

Last question today I promise...... I am comparing the drawings of her masts and yards as found in the library of congress and reproduced in the Naval Documents relating to United State Wars with the Barbary Powers, to the numerical dimensions listed in that same work. Chapelle reprints those sam dimensions. Although the drawings are obviously distorted  I have attempted to take measurement oof of the drawing to see if they match the numerical table.. The lenght of the topmasts as given in the tables does not seem to include the block below the square portion of the topmast containing the fid hole. This would make the "Stick length" about 18 " longer. Is this correct.

Also thelength for the lower masts does not seem to include the tenon.

[CharlieZardoz]

We like questions. Helps get the brain juices flowing.

[CharlieZardoz]

So I know this is changing the topic quite a bit but Ive been pretty fascinated by the Pawnee as of late. That said I have found so very little info on her details and wondering if other than these two photos does anyone know of any images or diagrams of this little workhorse of a ship. She did quite alot in the civil war however overshadowed by the great ships like Hartford or Kearsarge but apart from her strange look (she was a commission I believe) im curious what others may have to contribute. 

[Talos]

Sure, got plenty of stuff on Pawnee. That plan is later in the war when she had a broadside battery. As-built she had four x XI-inch Dahlgren cannons on pivot mounts, two on either side of the ship. She had a very unusual hull as you can see, but one of the most unusual parts is missing from that plan, but I've seen it in others with the original pivots. The keel is actually recessed inwards with a concave hull shape down there. If you have Canney's The Old Steam Navy vol 1, it's in there on page 84.

 

As for pics....

How will these do for now?

[uss frolick]

Found another boat clue for the Wasp II. A receipt dated November 22, 1813:

 

"John Wade made for $224.00 first cutter of 28 feet at $8 per foot."

 

At least I have one of the boats' length, and I know that Boston's John Wade made it. How did they get them safely up the winding coast to Newburyport?

 

From my earlier posting:

 

"1 cutter and 1 stern boat & 24 oars" for $385.60."

and

"1 cutter & painting boats and oars" for for $256.80."

 

If it was the first cutter mentioned, then $385.60 - $224.00 = $161.60 for the stern boat and the oars. If I knew what an oar cost, then I could find the length of the stern boat. If it was the second reference, then the cost for painting the three boats and all the oars was 256.00 - 224.00 = $32.00. Kind of low, considering that the Frolick's two boats and oars were painted for $51.00. So I think it was the first cutter mentioned. And of course it is logical to assume that the first cutter delivered would be called the "1st cutter"!

[Talos]

2 hours ago, uss frolick said:

Found another boat clue for the Wasp II. A receipt dated November 22, 1813:

 

"John Wade made for $224.00 first cutter of 28 feet at $8 per foot."

 

At least I have one of the boats' length, and I know that Boston's John Wade made it. How did they get them safely up the winding coast to Newburyport?

 

From my earlier posting:

 

"1 cutter and 1 stern boat & 24 oars" for $385.60."

and

"1 cutter & painting boats and oars" for for $256.80."

 

If it was the first cutter mentioned, then $385.60 - $224.00 = $161.60 for the stern boat and the oars. If I knew what an oar cost, then I could find the length of the stern boat. If it was the second reference, then the cost for painting the three boats and all the oars was 256.00 - 224.00 = $32.00. Kind of low, considering that the Frolick's two boats and oars were painted for $51.00. So I think it was the first cutter mentioned. And of course it is logical to assume that the first cutter delivered would be called the "1st cutter"!

From what I've seen, 1st cutter was usually the largest of the cutters. 1st as in best and biggest, in the same way the best bower anchor is the biggest one. It appears like that in the various later boat dimensions listed in Chapelle from the post-war Navy.

[uss frolick]

The first cutter of the larger Sloop-of-War John Adams, in 1820, was 27 feet, one foot shorter than the Wasp II's with twelve 14 foot oars.

There was no '2nd-cutter' listed, per se, but three quarter-boats, one 25 footer, and two identical 24 footers. The 24' boats were 4 inches wider than the 25-footer. The launch was 29' 6" (sixteen 16' oars.). The jolly boat was 20' and the gig was 26'. (From Chapelle, ibid, p.504.)

Edited October 26, 2017 by uss frolick

[Seahawk1313]

Wasp I, George S. Parker did 5 boats and Herb Ebsen did 3.  From what I remember ,"Dangerous",  Wasp I and Hornet originally didn't have any whaleboats, only cutters, etc.  Does anyone know when the Navy first started using whaleboats ?  Date / Ship ?   

[michaelpsutton2]

The model shown above has split gun-port lids. The lower half hinged, the upper removable. They seem to be without the muzzle rests cut out of them. Is this generally believed to be correct?

 

And thanks for the boat all of the boat info. First Frolic lists a whaleboat for the 1806 wasp

 

I assume one of the smaller boats would have been hung on the stern davits. The double ended whaleboat maybe or the smaller cutter. What kept this boat from banging against the sternboard? I have seen how it was managed on quarter davits but it looks like an issue at the stern. You could keep it from swinging outward but not inwards. A following sea could be fatal for the boat and quite inconvenient for whoever was unfortunate enough to be occupying the great cabin when the remains of the boat came crashing through the stern lights.

Edited October 27, 2017 by michaelpsutton2
i spell like a 2nd grader and type worse

[Talos]

This is a preview for a thread I'll write on the frigate Macedonian (II) sometime. I liked how it came out, so I couldn't resist posting it. It's an overlay of Chapelle's plans for Macedonian before and after she was cut down and there's some interesting changes and similarities. The frigate is in green, the sloop in purple.

 

Changes:

Head reshaped and extended, bowsprit rake changed, reshaped stem

Gun deck gunports reduced from 15 to 13, ports at the bow, stern, and amidships are in the same place

Foremast relocated aft, rake of masts adjusted

New rudder

Bulwarks cut down, of course

New quarter galleries (not drawn yet, plan was lacking them, will used Sloop Constellation's old galleries as a base)

Higher waterline despite the reduced upper works

(Not visible) Removal of additional heavy timbering bow reinforcement for Antarctic use during US Exploring Expedition, probably source of her sailing issues

 

 

Macedonian was a 2nd-class frigate and carried the same armament as Constellation. Before the new-generation 32-pdr standardization of the 1840s, it was:

 

Gun deck: 28 x 18-pdrs (8', 38cwt)
Spar deck: 2 x 18-pdrs (9'2", 40cwt), 16 x 32-pdr carronades (4'1", 21cwt)
Total 1480cwt

 

Afterwards it was:

Gun deck: 4 x 8" shell guns (8'4", 53cwt), 22 x 32-pdrs (8', 42cwt) (this armament requires either filled bridle ports or a permanent filling of the stern ports)

Spar deck: 2 x 8" shell guns (8'4", 53cwt), 8 x 32-pdr carronades (4'1", 21cwt)

Total 1410cwt

 

 

[JerryTodd]

I look forward to that thread Tal

[Talos]

Thanks, Gerald. I hope you like it. Your threads on Constellation and Macedonian (I) were really great. I've always been interested in this ship and she gets a short-shift and overshadowed by the original British frigate and then the razee'd sloop. Even books like de Kay's Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian don't speak very highly of her.

 

One thing I'm still trying to find is a source for the "original intended armament" of 32-pdrs and 24-pdr carronades before she received the same 18-pdr armament as Constellation. Chapelle and a few other authors talk about it.

 

Sean

 

[JerryTodd]

A photo I took of a painting of Macedonian in the Naval Academy

[Talos]

Was meaning to finish this up and post it, but here's a lines comparison of the two Macedonian's bow and stern lines. I scaled them the same since there's only a foot difference between the two. They're lined up at the top of the keel and the widest points on both are in the same place. HMS Macedonian is in red and the later USS Macedonian in blue. I don't know if the USS Macedonian's fore/aft lines are compressed vertically or not in the book, it seems shorter in this comparison.

 

Still, the hull forms seem to be very different, especially for a pair of ships said to have nearly identical offsets (with the Americans copying the original ship to make a near-replica of it). HMS Macedonian is very typical British frigate of the Napoleonic Wars, while the hull shape of the American ship is very evocative of other ships of the era on both sides of the Atlantic, higher deadrise, straight floors, etc.

[uss frolick]

The ships are the same in name only! Thanks Talos.

 

 

[JerryTodd]

The new ship was deliberately built to about the same dimensions because Macedonian was still an important trophy and Decatur was still a hero.

 

[CharlieZardoz]

So how does Macedonian relate to Congress then since she was built right before. The later Congress of course.