American sailing warships with no plans or records

[JerryTodd]

No relation, Humphreys designed Macedonian specifically to replace the captured British frigate.  She was a "modern" frigate in the older ship's dimensions.

[Talos]

4 hours ago, uss frolick said:

The ships are the same in name only! Thanks Talos.

 

 

But an important name! And above the waterline apparently not too far apart from the evolved form of the original ship, as de Kay comments in his "Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian" about an older British gentleman living in the US who came aboard the ship during a port call on her first commission. He had been a sailor on the original British ship under John Carden and stayed in the US after his capture by Decatur. He told the American sailors stories about his service on her, pointed out his duty station, etc.

2 hours ago, GeraldTodd said:

The new ship was deliberately built to about the same dimensions because Macedonian was still an important trophy and Decatur was still a hero.

 

The more I look at it, the more I think that she wasn't built to the original ship's dimensions but instead built to the standard US 2nd class frigate dimensions of the time, eg: Congress and Constellation. She was rated and armed exactly as Constellation was anyway and they are only a foot apart in beam and /six inches/ apart in length. They were fairly close to the original ship's dimensions anyway, so not a huge difference. It makes sense that they would build to their class standards instead of arbitrarily making one eight to ten feet shorter just to match the older vessel. No one's going to notice that it's different, it's not like they upscaled her to a 1st class frigate. What's more interesting to me is everyone I've read (Chapelle, etc) comments that the change in dimensions was because she had longer, narrower clipper-style ends for speed, but looking at the lines compared to each other...

 

Interestingly, Constellation's replacement was built to the dimensions of a razee frigate...Cumberland in this case, except a lot narrower (five feet less beam, just about the same length). She was just a purpose-built, lighter, more optimized version of it. Had she been a true razee or kept to the original's dimensions, she would have been the exact same dimensions as Macedonian instead of being twelve feet longer. It reminds me that I was recently going through the length/width ratios of the American ships of that era, looking at proportions and trying to figure out a sweet spot for a 3rd class frigate (as mentioned below). Jamestown stuck out at me. Three inches narrower than Saratoga, but 17 feet longer (163 feet to 146.3 feet). Highest ratio I found in the American ships I was looking at (pretty much all the frigates ever, plus the post-war 1st and 2nd class ship-sloops).

1 hour ago, CharlieZardoz said:

So how does Macedonian relate to Congress then since she was built right before. The later Congress of course.

There's some similarities in basic hull forms, of course, but pretty different. Designed by the same guy in roughly the same time period. Definitely a more modern hullform compared to the earlier 1st class frigate designs though, but an evolution instead of a huge difference. Congress is also the 1st class to Macedonian's 2nd class. I've had a mind to come up with my own design for a 3rd class frigate equivalent too, a follow-on to ships like Boston just for fun.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Talos

[Talos]

I have not posted in this thread in a while, I started my master's degree program in the spring, and it has been eating up a lot of my free time.

 

I have mentioned the brig Burrows several times before, and it still stands out to me. A beautiful, never-built brig of larger than average size and armed with around 14 guns, either 32-pounder carronades or 27 hundredweight 32-pounder cannons. It was designed by Richard Powell, assistant to John Lenthall. I was struck by the resemblance to Lenthall’s ship-sloop Germantown, so I stuck the two together, and it is very apparent. Above the waterline, the two ships are very similar. Similar bows, stern is the same shape, fore- and mainmasts are in almost the same locations, even the boarding ladder. I know US brigs normally didn’t have quarter galleries, but this one was huge, just slightly smaller than the Boston-class ship-sloops. I copied Germantown’s onto Burrows, and they fit perfectly like they meant to be there. All I had to do to tweak it was shorten the top part of the quarter gallery a bit to fit Burrows’ smaller hammock rails. I also included a drawing with her rig. I have a comparison of lines too, but I need to go back and work on it more so I will post it another time.

 

Burrows
LBP: 126'0"
Beam (Molded): 30'0"
Depth in Hold: 14'0"

 

Germantown
LBP: 150'0"
Beam (Molded): 36'0"
Depth in Hold: 16'8"

 

 

 

This is another drawing I did for a prompt over on Civil War Talk. The sloop Plymouth was captured at Gosport Naval Yard by advancing Confederate forces (along with Germantown). There was a proposal to convert her into an ironclad, which fell through. I combined a proposed Confederate ironclad casemate design with Plymouth’s hull. I also included the armament, two 7-inch Brooke Rifles, two 6.4-inch Brooke Rifles, four IX-inch Dahlgren smoothbores, and a pair of boat howitzers.

 

I did up several gun drawings as well, including the top view of Plymouth’s 7-inch rifles on pivot carriages, a new Marsilly carriage for the old IX-inch Dahlgren I drew. I also drew a British 64-pounder MLR of 64cwt and a British truck carriage for it.

 

I did a drawing of Plymouth’s gundeck based on a combination of a plan In Canney’s Sailing Warships book, and a Library of Congress plan of Plymouth’s great cabin. I plan to use this on another forum to illustrate some armament and layout concepts, but right now it is armed with a mix of 32-pounders and 8” shell guns. I’m also including a larger copy of the two guns and their truck carriages.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Talos
Forgot Germantown & Burrows specs

[CharlieZardoz]

Those are great Talos! Look at those lines wheewhoo! Do you posts these in a different forum I'd love to follow your progress. Consequently I have an image of the South's attempt to convert the Raritan as well. I guess they really didn't have the resources to convert these ships to ironclads, but poor Germantown and United States were taken into the navy as floating batteries and then scuttled. Neat stuff!

[Talos]

Thanks, Charlie. Some of these get posted on my naval thread on Baen's Bar, others get posted in the naval subforum on Civil War Talk (where frolick also posts) like the Plymouth ironclad. This is the first place I've posted the Burrows pics, however. The major reason Plymouth never ended up converted is they ran out of time and she was too deep to make it up the James River when the North recaptured Gosport.

 

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/uss-plymouth.144001/

 

 

[sawtrey]

The MFA, Boston has a painting by James Henry Wright US Ship Constellation (48.495). It looks as if it might be loosely based on the print source you have above. Were you ever able to locate the source or it's still a mystery?

 

https://collections.mfa.org/objects/33240/us-ship-constellation?ctx=2fdb0a01-8f65-406d-a6f1-ec71d0390482&idx=1

Thanks

[highlanderburial]

I just spent HOURS reading through this topic. I was putting together a presentation for my modeling group about the Battle of Turtle Gut Inlet and modeling the ships that took part in it. 

The ships I could NOT find any hope of plans for were the following:

Wasp (the first one)

Reprisal (Wickes ship that delivered Ben Franklin to France)

the Brig Nancy

 

Most of the British vessels were fairly easy to find plans on. The HMS Liverpool is a very lovely ship BTW.

The topic on the Lexington has been pretty worn through in this forum, however. I feel that the practicum offered by NRG is very likely on the money for the true Lexington. 

 

The reasons for the lack of plans seems typical for many of the American yards seems pretty normal. I did take a trip to downtown Philadelphia to visit the PA Historical Society where the yard logs of Humphreys are still held in excellent shape which can be personally reviewed at special tables. Here are some pics of the logs from my visit. These images are the copyrighted property of the PA Historical Society and can only be posted here for scholarly/research purposes. Please don't repost anywhere else.

[Dave Sculley]

On 9/25/2015 at 10:13 AM, CharlieZardoz said:

Ok so I got "American ships of the Colonial and Revolutionary Periods" by John F Millar and have to say there are some very interesting conjectural draughts in this book.  I scanned a few based on the original list made in this post, the Warren, Trumbull and the Alliance.  While the first two are pretty much just slightly altered versions of the class ship they belong to (Trumbull a Virginia type and Warren a Randolph type), his Alliance is in my opinion sort of a stretched out Raleigh and takes a bit of creative license. His reasoning is that she was built in the same yard as Raleigh by the same builders only a year later but looks very little like the Confederacy (wouldn't they have used the same builders plans?).  For each conjecture he mentions the methodology he used and while it's all a stab in the dark with some educated guesses it's nice at least that someone took the time to put this resource together and I enjoyed looking through all the ships regardless. What do y'all think? 

Just a historical correction; Alliance and Raleigh were built in different yards.  Raleigh was built in John Langods shipyard and designed by James Hackett who later designed and built Ranger.  Alliance was built at Salisbury Point MA by William Hackett, James first cousin.

[Dave Sculley]

Hello gents!  I have enjoyed this thread But just a few historical comments about the Alliance.  First, she did not in fact mount those larger guns ordered by Jones.  Those were carried as cargo by Capt. Barry on a subsequent return trip in company with the ship Marquis de .Lafayette.  Alliance continued to carry 12 and 9-pounders through the entire war.

 

Alliance was builtby Wm. Hackett and his cousin John Hackett in then Salisbury MA.  Wm may have consulted ondesign of Hancock built downriver at Newburyportm but the Hacketts didnot build her.   The Raleigh was built in Portsmouth New Hampshire by John's brother (Wm's cousin) James Hackett. The Essex was designed by William Hackett.

[uss frolick]

I read that the battery of twenty-eight new French 18-pounders, cast specifically for the Bon Homme Richard, were instead mounted later on the Alliance, and she used them against HMS Sybille in 1783.

 

P.C.F. Smith, in his book The Essex Papers, stated his belief that the Essex was built to a modified plan of the Alliance.

[Talos]

I recently visited Constitution for the first time, and it made me really want to pick up the pen and draw more. Revisiting a topic that we've spilled much ink over, I think I can push Constitution getting the six-port Gurriere/Java/Potomac stern as far back as her 1833 refit, not her 1850s or 1870s ones. A major part of that refit was bringing her up to the standards of modern frigates at the time, including planking in the waist and head.

 

I was looking over various plans of Constitution I have and I noticed something I hadn't before on the 1849 plans. If one looks closely at the stern in the profile drawing, there are indications of the six-port stern, as you can see the sliver of the port-side ports on the gun and spar deck, and the centerline cutaway goes right through the center ports (marked with Xs). That fully fits the kind of refit she had at the time, which was followed up later when her ports were enlarged to fit the 32-pounders and 8-inch shell guns she was refitted with.

 

 

I also noticed an illustration of the ship in France in 1878 carrying exhibits for the Exhibition there, where she is depicted with the full Gurriere arch instead of the "flarch" she had a few years later as a receiving ship and still has today.

 

 

I would like to draw these out properly, compare them with other depictions of the ship, reconstruct them, etc, but I wanted to at least point out what I had noticed in the meantime.

[CharlieZardoz]

Talos, I have that image in one of my books that helps. It's a procession of ships 1823 in it is Brandywine and later Constitution and you can see the change. the photo itself is grainy and I'd love a larger version of the original. Consequently let's assume that United States also had their stern modified as well and remember there's an image of Constellation that time period too. My question is while Constitution had their new stern, did the stern details change a but over time. And this pic in addition to the one I have shows it did. Which is exciting so ty for loading this.

Edited October 20 by CharlieZardoz