Help with fairing Phantom solid hull

[Paulie_bag-a-donuts]

As my first build, the website suggested the solid hull phantom NY pilot boat by model ship ways. It has a detailed practicum. I have not started on the ship yet and have encountered a problem that causing me to ask you people for advice. (First please excuse any wrong terminology). The practicum goes into detail about narrowing the hull where the keel will be glued on to one eight of an inch by drawing lines so you have a reference. The problem is that the hull is only a sixteenth of an inch wide where the rudder will later be attached but most of the rest of it (I think) can be worked. ( I'm writing this from my phone and will attempt to attach photos). The template shows the profile to be straight until the curve upward at the bow. But if I remove wood, essentially lowering the height drastically along the length of the hull, I fear there will be a ton of carving necessary to shape the hull properly, and although I didn't cut the templates out yet, I don't think it will be "tall" enough for the templates to actually work. I see 3 options

1 reduce the height along the whole length and wing it. It doesn't have to be an exact replica

2 reduce the height along the Stern area only leaving a curved keel. Not my first choice I think it will look awful

3 reduce the height at the stern, and then glue additional wood back to correct the profile. This I think will be my best solution.

 

Any suggestions.

Thanks in advance. The photos I hope to attach will show the line where it will be one eighth of an inch ( probably a little lower ( higher) and the other is a line aproximating how much I need to remove along the length of the hull.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Paulie_bag-a-donuts

[jbshan]

Just as a concept, and maybe to send your thoughts in a new direction, what if at the rudder post you bring it down to 1/16" and then apply an actual post there for the rudder.  This will give the proper width for the rudder and give you a big notch to put any planking into.  If you are intended to use the solid hull as the final surface this won't work of course.

Read all the way through the instructions, at least for the hull for the moment to make sure you understand all the steps required.

 

I'm not Obi Wan, I got my bathrobe from LL Bean.

Edited September 8, 2016 by jbshan

[ccoyle]

I can't help you with your question, but I can help you get more responses. In the forum rules & guidelines it states:

 

Choose an appropriate subject line for your “Topic Title” when starting a new thread. Think about this carefully; describe what you are about to post. Things like “In need of help” or “This is amazing” doesn’t really help a viewer of the Forum and decide if they want to spend the time opening and reading your post.

 

I have edited your title for you. Hope someone gets back to you quickly.

 

Cheers!

[lehmann]

I had a look at the practicum and the pictures certainly imply there's lots of material.  However, I suggest making the templates to see what they tell you. 

[trippwj]

I'm not sure I am clear on which dimension you are referring to.  The keel/sternpost portion will be gently carved and sanded to a final dimension of 1/8" width (not height).  If the section at the stern post is already narrower, then you may be better off to either (1) gently carve out enough (from aft toward bow) until you get to the 1/8" wide and then adding in a filler piece to make up the depth (length, fore and aft dimension) removed, or (2) checking with Model Expo to see if they can send a replacement hull as the one you have is not dimensionally correct.

 

For one example of how the shaping and fairing of a Phantom has been handled, take a look at the build by Elijah here http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/12376-phantom-new-york-pilot-boat-by-elijah-model-shipways/?p=402720

[Pete Jaquith]

Paulie-bag-a-donuts,

 

Some time ago I posted the following notes on carving solid hulls:

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/7105-shaping-solid-ship-model-hulls/

 

Regards,

Pete

[Paulie_bag-a-donuts]

Trippwj, the sternpost/ keel area is already too narrow its a sixteenth of an inch wide to I have to increase the width not narrow it. To do that I would have to take material off the bottom of the keel reducing the hull depth into the "water". And I've seen that build log, but my hull will have to be handled drastically different than he did. I truly think my hull was supplied to me poorly/inaccurately manufactured. I'm not expecting my first build to be perfect, and I'm actually looking forward to trying to fix their error (we don't live in a perfect world you-know-what happens, deal with it) if I totally foul it up, I will request a new hull.

 

Additionally, your link although it is really good, it's almost gibberish to me. My knowledge of shipbuilding terms/ ships anatomy is virtually nill. I'm going to read that very carefully, looking up a great many of the technical terms you use. Eventually I will gain a better understanding, and I expect it to be helpful

 

I hope my build comes out half as good as 13 year old elija's is coming along.

 

Thank you all for your attempts to help me. I truly appreciate the advice.

[trippwj]

Trippwj, the sternpost/ keel area is already too narrow its a sixteenth of an inch wide to I have to increase the width not narrow it. To do that I would have to take material off the bottom of the keel reducing the hull depth into the "water". And I've seen that build log, but my hull will have to be handled drastically different than he did. I truly think my hull was supplied to me poorly/inaccurately manufactured. I'm not expecting my first build to be perfect, and I'm actually looking forward to trying to fix their error (we don't live in a perfect world you-know-what happens, deal with it) if I totally foul it up, I will request a new hull.

 

Additionally, your link although it is really good, it's almost gibberish to me. My knowledge of shipbuilding terms/ ships anatomy is virtually nill. I'm going to read that very carefully, looking up a great many of the technical terms you use. Eventually I will gain a better understanding, and I expect it to be helpful

 

I hope my build comes out half as good as 13 year old elija's is coming along.

 

Thank you all for your attempts to help me. I truly appreciate the advice.

You may want to contact Model Expo and explain the problem - they may replace the hull for you.

[Paulie_bag-a-donuts]

Trip, that's my final solution only if all else fails. I will conquer, with great enthusiasm, this thing. A poorly crafted hull cannot stop

Paulie bag a donuts. I've overcome greater adversity. It seems to me that problem solving is a big part of this thing I'm trying to do. Challenge accepted.

[Paulie_bag-a-donuts]

And ccoyle,

Thanks for your help with the title. I read the rules and guidelines, clearly not thouroughy enough. I'm kind of silly at heart so forgive me. It'll not happen again.

[Jaager]

If you trace the outline of the keel- stem- sternpost assembly and rubber cement it to thick  cardboard or a piece of corrugated box - trim it to the inside dimension - fit it to the hull:

 

the hull is longer - trim the skeg back and it may be the 1/8" needed.

the hull is correct, just too thin --  glue a temporary sternpost that is the correct size - use liquid hide glue-  fill out the skeg with a filler like Bondo and fair the hull.   Once the shape matches the templates, the temp post can be removed - heat gun/hair dryer and water or rubbing alcohol that is 91% ethanol will undo the hide glue.  The real unmarred post can now be fitted.

[Paulie_bag-a-donuts]

Spyglass, I believe the hull is manufactured wrong. I intend to copper the hull so I think I can do this because mismatched wood will be covered up. I won't get too far before I know if I will be unable so I will still have the option to request a new hull.

Frankly I enjoy a good challenge.

[Jaager]

Making alterations and major fixes - this gets you into some aspects of scratch building.  As long as your course is tending to the "dark side" you could consider a visit to a hardwood dealer and get some veneer of closed pore wood species and plank the hull instead of painting it. Get a light species like Maple and actually plank the deck.  With veneer, you can use a #11 blade and a steel straight edge to cut out the planks - no expensive tools needed.

[Paulie_bag-a-donuts]

Jag,

 

First, I'd like to use the copper tape provided to cover the hull but thanks for the idea, I'll consider it. I like the look of stained wood very much.

Also funny you mention "the dark side" because the original title to the thread was " help me Obi Wan Kenobi you're my only hope, but it (rightly so) got changed.

 

And I'd like very much to scratch build at some point, I have a well equipped shop, but I think kits are the way to go for at least my first couple of builds. But that leads to a question about scratch builds, do they tend to be more, less or about equal to kits regarding cost. Bear in mind I have tons of scrap wood lying around as well as some good boards, plywood and 2x4s but I'm guessing that's not suitable.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Paulie_bag-a-donuts

[Jaager]

I have no insight to comment on the relative costs of scratch vs kit.  

If you can work a 1" or 2" thick plank down to scale dimensions then 

wood costs are not significant - the really suitable domestic species

- Hard Maple, Black Cherry, Yellow Poplar, Basswood, Birch, Beech

are not that expensive. Holly can be a bit dear.  The premium domestic

- you pretty much have to obtain on the hoof - Apple, Pear, Plum, Dogwood -

depending on your luck - these can cost nothing or firewood cost as logs.

The expense is in time and a good  band saw and waiting for the wood to

season.

 

The old traditional 17th and 18th species -boxwood- buxus sempervirens  is

essentially not available.  There is an exotic import substitute, but it is not

the same wood - is expensive and is tending to be hard to get.  I advise

sticking with domestic species with properties that scale down nicely -

at least until you have enough experience not to have to ask.

 

If you are OC,  the expense will be in collecting the machines.

 

With scratch,  your choice of vessel  is limited by the availability of plans.

With computers and copiers,  the scale is totally your choice.

My bias is that I avoid any vessel available as a kit and certainly not at

the same scale, if it does. 

 

The Smithsonian plans are not expensive.  Some commercial plans can be.