HMS Victory by Rob S - Mamoli - 1/90th scale - first build

[Robert29]

Hi Rob, sorry I meant flatwise not flatware.  What I mean is bending across the tickness of the plank. Whilst edgewise I meant bending laterally across its it's width, which is more difficult.  Actually the proper way is to go for what is called 'spiling'.  This is used instead of edge bending (across the width).  Basically this is done by getting wider planks and cutting the planks to shape instead of bending them.  But you will not find the wider planks needed for spiling with any kit. You have to buy them separate and you have a lot of waste. I find nothing wrong with edge bending unless the curve is too sharp, otherwise you might get what is called the clinker effect, i.e the outer edge of the bend tends to overlap the plank next to it.

Always taper on the same side of the plank. For example if you are holding the boat upside down to plank the hull taper the top edge and leave the other edge straight. Next plank , again taper the top edge.  This way you will always have a straight edge against which to mate the tapered edge.This way you shouldn't get any gaps.  You are more likely to get gaps if you have the taper edges facing each other.  Hope I am not confusing you.  There is a good right up on planking in this same forum.  It's worth reading.

It's in the articles/downloads - ship model framing and planking - simple hull planking for beginners.

plankingprojectbeginners.pdf

 

Robert

Edited April 12, 2020 by Bertu

[Snow]

Hi Emmet 

Yeah I made them my self just  have  to sacrifice  a few clips to put the clip inside the other 

Cheers  and happy  Easter  snowy 

[Emmet]

3 hours ago, Bertu said:

Hi Rob, sorry I meant flatwise not flatware.  What I mean is bending across the tickness of the plank. Whilst edgewise I meant bending laterally across its it's width, which is more difficult.  Actually the proper way is to go for what is called 'spiling'.  This is used instead of edge bending (across the width).  Basically this is done by getting wider planks and cutting the planks to shape instead of bending them.  But you will not find the wider planks needed for spiling with any kit. You have to buy them separate and you have a lot of waste. I find nothing wrong with edge bending unless the curve is too sharp, otherwise you might get what is called the clinker effect, i.e the outer edge of the bend tends to overlap the plank next to it.

Always taper on the same side of the plank. For example if you are holding the boat upside down to plank the hull taper the top edge and leave the other edge straight. Next plank , again taper the top edge.  This way you will always have a straight edge against which to mate the tapered edge.This way you shouldn't get any gaps.  You are more likely to get gaps if you have the taper edges facing each other.  Hope I am not confusing you.  There is a good right up on planking in this same forum.  It's worth reading.

It's in the articles/downloads - ship model framing and planking - simple hull planking for beginners.

plankingprojectbeginners.pdf 1.9 MB · 4 downloads

 

Robert

Yeah Rob I had to taper and bend almost every plank for La Nina.  The dimensions for the middle vs. the bow were extremely different.  I also did not know the soaking and plank bending as I did towards the end.  It is why I am spending so much time trying now how to do it better.  I had seen the directions Snowy mentions above but it was a tough job.  There were many cases where I reduced the plank more than 50% and that is a nono.

[Emmet]

13 hours ago, Snow said:

Hi Emmet 

Yeah I made them my self just  have  to sacrifice  a few clips to put the clip inside the other 

Cheers  and happy  Easter  snowy 

Hi Snowy

I had some big clips and tried it and yes, a great idea. See my post for a pic-don't want to use Rob's site too much.

[Rob S]

Thank you everyone for the excellent tips.  I’m taking a little time to ensure I understand what I’m doing before I start actually doing it. In the mean time I’ve just purchased the below jig for holding damp planks until they dry.  It will take a little time to get here which should give me the time required for a bit more research. 

 

[Rob S]

20 hours ago, Bertu said:

Hi Rob, sorry I meant flatwise not flatware.  What I mean is bending across the tickness of the plank. Whilst edgewise I meant bending laterally across its it's width, which is more difficult.  Actually the proper way is to go for what is called 'spiling'.  This is used instead of edge bending (across the width).  Basically this is done by getting wider planks and cutting the planks to shape instead of bending them.  But you will not find the wider planks needed for spiling with any kit. You have to buy them separate and you have a lot of waste. I find nothing wrong with edge bending unless the curve is too sharp, otherwise you might get what is called the clinker effect, i.e the outer edge of the bend tends to overlap the plank next to it.

Always taper on the same side of the plank. For example if you are holding the boat upside down to plank the hull taper the top edge and leave the other edge straight. Next plank , again taper the top edge.  This way you will always have a straight edge against which to mate the tapered edge.This way you shouldn't get any gaps.  You are more likely to get gaps if you have the taper edges facing each other.  Hope I am not confusing you.  There is a good right up on planking in this same forum.  It's worth reading.

It's in the articles/downloads - ship model framing and planking - simple hull planking for beginners.

plankingprojectbeginners.pdf 1.9 MB · 8 downloads

 

Robert

Thank you Robert - Your explanation above is very helpful.  I’ve spent some time going over the ‘plankingprojectbeginners.pdf’ which I’ve found beneficial but is by no means trivial.  I think I need a carpenter’s certificate to fully understand it.  I’ve also looked at a few YouTube videos.. also helpful.  But the ‘devil is in the details’ and understandably not every detail is covered.  It would be ideal to attend a planking workshop to see how it goes.  I’ve looked at Y.T.’s planking which looks fantastic and has helped me with laying out the planking bands.  

 

To confirm your explanation above, it seems the plank bending at the stern area is the lateral bending vs at the bow where it is more ‘flatwise’.  I imagine lateral bending to be where a plank is put on a table and is transferred into a ‘U’ shape - while still flat on the table.  An extreme condition to illustrate the point.  The flatwise bending is illustrated in the jig picture above.  Do I have that correct?

 

Of course, no bending is required midships as the planks lie nicely there.  

 

Your explanation for attaching tapered planks was perfect for me; now I understand.  I’ve created the table for each planking band to show the taper dimension for each bulkhead.  The challenge now will be how to actually taper the small planks at each of the bulkheads.  5mm doesn’t give you a lot of room for error. Any suggestions or tutorials you think may be helpful?  Thanks again!

[Rob S]

17 hours ago, Emmet said:

Yeah Rob I had to taper and bend almost every plank for La Nina.  The dimensions for the middle vs. the bow were extremely different.  I also did not know the soaking and plank bending as I did towards the end.  It is why I am spending so much time trying now how to do it better.  I had seen the directions Snowy mentions above but it was a tough job.  There were many cases where I reduced the plank more than 50% and that is a nono.

Thanks Emmet - I followed your planking exercise for La Niña and found it fascinating.  I’m going to look at it again. 

[Rob S]

Learning new planking techniques every day from the fine body of knowledge on this forum.  Couldn’t get there without it!  Lessons learned include now:

 

(1) Use warm water to soak planks. This may be a ‘no brainer’ to most, but I’ve been using cold water to this point with a plank bender. The warmer water is making the planks more flexible.

(2) I soak, bend the damp plank to fit and then without glue, nail the plank in place.  I allow it to dry.  Then will glue it in place.  Previously I bent the plank and glued it while still moist. As fellow modelers have pointed out, the plank changes size when drying, causing gaps. This will help because the plank will be dry when used to fit the next one.

(3) I’ve identified the final four (4) planking bands (see pictures) and will measure the length of each bulkhead length in the given band for each bulkhead. I then know how much to taper the plank width for each bulkhead in each band. These bands should be aligned on both port and starboard sides so that the planks align when looking at the ship from front and back. The top/bottom bands are each 25mm at midships and the inner two are about 23mm.  Will need to see how this works out.  I now see why this will take a long time.  

 

 

 

[Rob S]

I still need to sand some of the forward/aft bulkhead corners for better plank/bulkhead attachment.   You can also see where I have some repair to do for some of the bow planks. Done right, this will allow the next set of planks to fit better and faster. 

[Robert29]

Rob, yes that is exactly what I meant as regards bending.  To taper the planks I used a combination of a planer ( I have a David planer) and sanding. The planer is useful when you have to remove a substantial amount of wood and sanding is better to remove small amounts. What I had found useful was, in between the marked bands I also marked where each individual plank is going to be on every bulkhead. This helped a lot, especially when you taper a bit too much or too little at any particular place you would know and can compensate for the difference with the next plank. I am inserting a couple of iimages from my build, if you want I can remove.

 

Robert

 

[Emmet]

6 hours ago, Bertu said:

Rob, yes that is exactly what I meant as regards bending.  To taper the planks I used a combination of a planer ( I have a David planer) and sanding. The planer is useful when you have to remove a substantial amount of wood and sanding is better to remove small amounts. What I had found useful was, in between the marked bands I also marked where each individual plank is going to be on every bulkhead. This helped a lot, especially when you taper a bit too much or too little at any particular place you would know and can compensate for the difference with the next plank. I am inserting a couple of iimages from my build, if you want I can remove.

 

Robert

 

This post is extremely helpful. I did similar on La Nina, my first,  But I did not use marks. I measured after each plank.

[Rob S]

Thank you Robert!

 

Well, starting to get to the 'devil's in the details' bit.  Completed my table of measurements for the 4 bands per side and have identified the plank width per bulkhead (see picture).  I also spent some additional time in the 'Planking for beginners...' doc on this forum.  They reminded me that no plank should be tapered below half the width or in my case, 2.5mm.  They also have a lot of the 'How to implement...' the planking solution.  Not trivial for the beginner. 

 

The table in the picture highlights in red where the planks are not wide enough. In that case, I'll need to add in the filler bits (I forgot the technical name), per the planking tutorial document.

 

You can see for the first band, that the bow sections don't require tapering while the stern portion around the indicated bulkheads are tapered from 5mm to 4mm and finally to 3mm. The picture shows which bulkhead band requires both 4mm and then 3mm tapers.  After reaching 3mm, the plank is good.  Also, the untapered edge goes toward the keel.  I need to taper the other 4 planks in this same manner and will be looking at this forum for best way - likely sanding for now as I don't have a planer. 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by Rob S
Put up a better picture

[Rob S]

Model box cover - better late than never!  You can see this kit has been around the block a few times!

Edited April 15, 2020 by Rob S
Add additional verbiage

[Rob S]

18 hours ago, Bertu said:

Rob, yes that is exactly what I meant as regards bending.  To taper the planks I used a combination of a planer ( I have a David planer) and sanding. The planer is useful when you have to remove a substantial amount of wood and sanding is better to remove small amounts. What I had found useful was, in between the marked bands I also marked where each individual plank is going to be on every bulkhead. This helped a lot, especially when you taper a bit too much or too little at any particular place you would know and can compensate for the difference with the next plank. I am inserting a couple of iimages from my build, if you want I can remove.

 

Robert

 

These images are very helpful Robert; thanks for sharing!!  Now that is some attention to detail and I'm sure the results make it worth it.  As Wallace stated, take one's time.  I typically want to rush through it, but the results will not be as good. 

[Emmet]

10 hours ago, Rob S said:

Thank you Robert!

 

Well, starting to get to the 'devil's in the details' bit.  Completed my table of measurements for the 4 bands per side and have identified the plank width per bulkhead (see picture).  I also spent some additional time in the 'Planking for beginners...' doc on this forum.  They reminded me that no plank should be tapered below half the width or in my case, 2.5mm.  They also have a lot of the 'How to implement...' the planking solution.  Not trivial for the beginner. 

 

The table in the picture highlights in red where the planks are not wide enough. In that case, I'll need to add in the filler bits (I forgot the technical name), per the planking tutorial document.

 

You can see for the first band, that the bow sections don't require tapering while the stern portion around the indicated bulkheads are tapered from 5mm to 4mm and finally to 3mm. The picture shows which bulkhead band requires both 4mm and then 3mm tapers.  After reaching 3mm, the plank is good.  Also, the untapered edge goes toward the keel.  I need to taper the other 4 planks in this same manner and will be looking at this forum for best way - likely sanding for now as I don't have a planer. 

 

 

Excellent!  It is great to see another person's approach to planking.  I did similar and also marked the boat but next time I am going to make a more detailed table.  I should add that I did not band because it was such a small dimension to begin with. I will band next time regardless of dimension.

[Rob S]

Thank you Emmet!  Doing what I can.  

 

Have now tapered and put in place 2 x planks for drying on the starboard side. The two upper planks were tapered from 5mm to 4mm and finally to 3mm at the last set of bulkheads.  The Port has different measurements for that first planking band so I will be looking at that side next.

 

 

[Emmet]

9 hours ago, Rob S said:

Thank you Emmet!  Doing what I can.  

 

Have now tapered and put in place 2 x planks for drying on the starboard side. The two upper planks were tapered from 5mm to 4mm and finally to 3mm at the last set of bulkheads.  The Port has different measurements for that first planking band so I will be looking at that side next.

 

 

It's great that you are showing the details of your actions. I will be watching as this develops.

[Rob S]

Continuing with planking.  Working port side in band 1.  Time consuming.

 

The band measurement is different than the starboard side.  Using the guidance of not laying a plank that the width is less than 2.5mm, I measured that point starting at bulkhead 15 and continuing to the end of the stern.  I planned for 4 x 2.5mm planks to end at bulkhead 15 and then continue with 2 x 5mm planks from that point on - you can see the result.  These planks are tacked in place for fitting and will be permanently applied after the planks are dried - sometime tomorrow.  Then I’ll measure/fit the forward planks.  

 

Then back over to the starboard side to finish up band 1. 

 

[Emmet]

10 hours ago, Rob S said:

Continuing with planking.  Working port side in band 1.  Time consuming.

 

The band measurement is different than the starboard side.  Using the guidance of not laying a plank that the width is less than 2.5mm, I measured that point starting at bulkhead 15 and continuing to the end of the stern.  I planned for 4 x 2.5mm planks to end at bulkhead 15 and then continue with 2 x 5mm planks from that point on - you can see the result.  These planks are tacked in place for fitting and will be permanently applied after the planks are dried - sometime tomorrow.  Then I’ll measure/fit the forward planks.  

 

Then back over to the starboard side to finish up band 1. 

 

No need to reply. i just wanted to let you know that people like me learn a lot from small steps you are showing.  I will be watching your progress. Talk about time I spent about two hours making a broken tiller for La Nina's rudder.  I had to abandon a few efforts that wee not working. 

[Rob S]

Continuing the planking exercise.  You can see a minor repair under the stern by the addition of a ‘Full Stealer’ as called out in the Planking tutorial document for beginning plankers.  The outer two planking bands on each side are tacked on as they dry and will be affixed tomorrow.

 

The stern planking application looks better to me as I work my way downward, toward the top of the boat.

 

You can see the bow planking needs a lot of work to correct the mistakes and does not look like it should per the planking tutorial.  The reason must be due to the early application of lower planks. 

 

Good news (as I’ve read in the forum) is post planking sanding and the addition of the copper tiles later should help ‘correct’/hide some of these mistakes!

 

 

[Emmet]

You are moving along in good fashion. All this work will definitely make your second planking better.

Now for my questions: Since the frames are big it is easy to join plank sections. Will this be the same for the 2nd planking?

You said you are leaving the planks to dry on the hull.  Are you just soaking to make the bends on the stern? So you are not using a plank bender at all.

I keep wondering how the stealers will look on the 2nd planking.

I will be watching to see how you fill the spaces on the bow.

I am gong to be looking at Bertu's log. I like the example he showed on your site.

[Rob S]

3 hours ago, Emmet said:

You are moving along in good fashion. All this work will definitely make your second planking better.

Now for my questions: Since the frames are big it is easy to join plank sections. Will this be the same for the 2nd planking?

You said you are leaving the planks to dry on the hull.  Are you just soaking to make the bends on the stern? So you are not using a plank bender at all.

I keep wondering how the stealers will look on the 2nd planking.

I will be watching to see how you fill the spaces on the bow.

I am gong to be looking at Bertu's log. I like the example he showed on your site.

Hey Emmet - How goes the journey?  Answers following:

 

I haven't looked far enough to see what the second planking really entails on the Mamoli kit.  But that said, since the entire hull has the first planking, attaching a second planking will be much easier due to the amount of surface material available to adhere to.

 

My previous application method was to soak, bend the planks with an electric, heated plank bender, glue and attach - but the planks were still damp.  They would consequently shrink a bit.  To make for better application, I bend and temporarily attach the planks while they are damp.  They then dry and shrink, but retain the bends. I then permanently attach after the planks are dry. That makes for a better alignment of subsequent planks. 

 

I still will be filling/sanding the first set of planks to make for a smoother surface for any future planks.

 

You and me both for the bow!!  Yes, Bertu had a nice application method.  I love Y.T.'s planking; he is a master.  There are many examples on the forum - both good and bad.

[Emmet]

I clearly like the way it is going for you.  We leave Friday for Jersey. We are stopping at a friend's house where we can keep our distance. Then our plan is to drive straight through to New Jersey to stop at our New Jersey house. It is about 950 miles (1520 ks).  My  Admiral has to see a doctor on a very important issue and then we continue on to New Hampshire where it is rural and distancing is natural.  We will go back to Jersey during the Summer to see doctors (hopefully the virus clears by that time).   I am glad I finally got a clear picture of how to go about this.  I assume you are using PVA glue.  The only thing I am concerned about is applying glue to 3 mm and 1.5 mm surfaces on the Santa Maria that I just received. At home I will have more access to ways of planing the planks. I will also be able to make more jigs. 

I will try my best to not bother you too much.

You are a friend

Thanks

 

[Rob S]

Thank you Emmet; drive safe.  Appreciate the comments.  Yes, jigs are helpful.  I’m doing the tapering by hand with mixed results.  

 

Spent today affixing some formed planks on the bottom and then repairing a portion of the port bow planked section clearly in need of work.

 

I identified the ‘before’ section (first picture) and then what was cut out vs. what was to go in.  Once cut to fit, I moistened the drop plank, bent it to fit with the electric plank bender and showed where it is in place, drying before the final installation with glue.  Will continue the main planking activity tomorrow.

 

One note, I saw how many of the modelers on the forum were using the clamps on the bowsprit support assembly to hold a formed plank against the very forward portion of the bow.  Nice technique.  I was previously trying to nail them in place with those little nails... that was always a problem.  This is much better. 

 

[Emmet]

Your detail is fantastic.  I surely learned something there.   I guess one has to use drop planks for this build-something for me to remember.

I just got Amati's Santa Maria kit and it seems like a much better kit than the La Nina.  I am just checking out all of the materials. I will start when I get to Jersey.

[Rob S]

Finally got around to building my 'plank soaker' based on forum member comments/ideas.  The mamoli supplied planks are about 29 inches.  I picked up 28 inches of 1.5 inch PVC piping, glued on two 1 inch long ends with thread sets and glued on one end.  The resulting soaker is just over 30 inches and can hold the entire plank(s) set as required. You can easily work both ends of the planks if required.  Good news is the planks bob up when you open the end after soaking for 10-15 minutes in warm water and are easy to retrieve.  

 

 

[Rob S]

Continuing to plank. Slow going.  I love that this forum has a wealth of those who have gone before down the planking rabbit hole, so there are lots of examples to see.  As a first time planker, my methods are what you might call a hybrid approach (I'm being kind).  I'm relying on the forum available 'Planking for beginners...' tutorial and particularly working to limit plank widths to no less than half the standard plank width or 2.5mm in this case.  Tapering would have driven less than 2.5mm widths if I had continued further. The result is what you see below. I'm tapering using an exacto blade and my mediocre to marginal ability to hold a line.  The planks are then sanded overall with mixed results.   There is some unsightly spacing between a few planks at junctions where the plank width changes.  I plan to finish the bow and stern sections with standard planks supplemented by stealers as necessary.  We'll see how it goes.  

 

Starboard side: when I re-measured the 5 plank band sections across all of the bulkheads the result will allow me to just taper the planks down to the 2.5mm width with no need to do what was done below on the starboard side. 

 

 

[Rob S]

Here is what I'm attempting to do with the starboard side of the stern areas.... The yellow section would be where the drop strake would be added.  Need to think about it a bit more.  BTW, I'm sure many of you have noticed, I'm screwing up some of the terminology (e.g., strakes vs. stealers vs...).  Sorry for that. 

 

[Emmet]

11 hours ago, Rob S said:

Here is what I'm attempting to do with the starboard side of the stern areas.... The yellow section would be where the drop strake would be added.  Need to think about it a bit more.  BTW, I'm sure many of you have noticed, I'm screwing up some of the terminology (e.g., strakes vs. stealers vs...).  Sorry for that. 

 

This helps me understand the use of laying out the plank plan.  Good picture Rob.  I put this into Photoshop and blew it way up so I could understand completely.  A high def pic really helps.  Good work.

[Emmet]

12 hours ago, Rob S said:

Finally got around to building my 'plank soaker' based on forum member comments/ideas.  The mamoli supplied planks are about 29 inches.  I picked up 28 inches of 1.5 inch PVC piping, glued on two 1 inch long ends with thread sets and glued on one end.  The resulting soaker is just over 30 inches and can hold the entire plank(s) set as required. You can easily work both ends of the planks if required.  Good news is the planks bob up when you open the end after soaking for 10-15 minutes in warm water and are easy to retrieve.  

 

 

I have all kinds of pvc around in my leftover building house places. I never thougth of doing this but have use pvc pipe for many other things besides plumbing (E,G, putting 2" pvc around surveyor stakes on my property).