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British warships, late 1600's.

The contract for several 50 gun ships of the 1690s specify that the clamps of the gun deck and upper deck are to be "Scarphed Flemish Hooke and Butt"  There is no mention of the type of scarphe for the QD, Forecastle or for the footwaling.  Thicknesses and widths are given, but there is no mention of scarphs.  Would there be some type of scarph, and if yes, what type? Thanks

Allan

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From empirical  observation,  the time and effort involved in fabricating this more expensive join was limited to those parts that were for lateral enforcement and/or vertical load carrying.  The strength parts and not the coverage parts.   I am thinking wales, clamps, riders (?), beams, spirketting (?).  If the strake carried a load, it may have required a scarph instead of a simple butt.

 

When I first read the title I thought you were aiming at a wider time period coverage.  The original meaning described two timbers meeting side to side.  The meeting of the first futtock with the floor and second futtock, for example.   The description being necessary because in earlier time, these timbers floated between each other.   When the framing method changed and made this definition all but moot,  the mating of butt ends in the same strake took over the word, it seems.

NRG member 50 years

 

Current:  

NMS

HMS Ajax 1767 - 74-gun 3rd rate - 1:192 POF exploration - works but too intense -no margin for error

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - POF Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - POF Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner - POF framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  - POF timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  - POF timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner - POF timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835 packet hull USN ship - POF timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  - POF timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - POF framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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I imagine, based on later ships, that any structurally significant longitudinal would be scarph jointed. This would include forecastle and quarter deck clamps.

Be sure to sign up for an epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series  http://trafalgar.tv

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Thanks guys, much appreciated. 

 

Jaager, the contracts are relatively detailed in their description of the frames so no issues there.  I was only in a quandary regarding the various strakes, specifically the footwaling and GD  clamp.  The GD is in pieces as it has a clamp and riser.  I looked again at the FC and as it is only 25 feet long, a single piece would likely be appropriate.

 

Just as an FYI, there are 6 strakes of 15" wide footwaling at the wrongheads, with  two that are 6" thick lying on the chocking of the floor head and middle futtock, then one 5" on each side, then one 4" on each side.  Perhaps the center strakes would be scarphed as they are to reinforce the area of the joints of the frame.  

 

The devil is indeed in the details at times.  

 

Allan   

 

  

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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The government shipyards would have been their own world, but with a contract I was thinking private yard.   In this situation, I considered that perhaps every component may not have been covered.  As time progressed, I suspect that the list grew longer as some less than ethical private builders worked to contract instead of using artful assembly.  If I were of a mind to replicate the internal components that are hidden by decking, gratings, and planking,  going that far in role playing,  I would try to follow artful practice in my shipyard.  

 

..... Expletive!!  I guess this means I talked myself into using the elaborate joinery for the main wale used in later era RN ships.  Another reason to stay with countries with better timber supplies. 

NRG member 50 years

 

Current:  

NMS

HMS Ajax 1767 - 74-gun 3rd rate - 1:192 POF exploration - works but too intense -no margin for error

HMS Centurion 1732 - 60-gun 4th rate - POF Navall Timber framing

HMS Beagle 1831 refiit  10-gun brig with a small mizzen - POF Navall (ish) Timber framing

The U.S. Ex. Ex. 1838-1842
Flying Fish 1838  pilot schooner - POF framed - ready for stern timbers
Porpose II  1836  brigantine/brig - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers
Vincennes  1825  Sloop-of-War  - POF timbers assembled, need shaping
Peacock  1828  Sloop-of -War  - POF timbers ready for assembly
Sea Gull  1838  pilot schooner - POF timbers ready for assembly
Relief  1835 packet hull USN ship - POF timbers ready for assembly

Other

Portsmouth  1843  Sloop-of-War  - POF timbers ready for assembly
Le Commerce de Marseilles  1788   118 cannons - POF framed

La Renommee 1744 Frigate - POF framed - ready for hawse and stern timbers

 

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Jaager,

Wales with anchor stock or similar planking are not really all that difficult at our scales.  The fun would be for the clamps on the UD and GD on this model as they are specified as tabled and scarphed hook and butt.  THAT is not a fun prospect.   I decided to forego the tabling on this model as these will be pretty much closed in and never be seen.  Maybe on the next project.  

Allan

PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series.   Click on http://trafalgar.tv   There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time.  THANK YOU

 

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Good Afternoon Allan;

 

There is in the NMM collections a drawing ZAZ7846, which is described as showing the internal and external planking of the Berwick of 1775 (there is nothing on the draught to verify this; possibly there is something on the back)  A bit later than your period, but still useful. This shows hook and butt (otherwise known as Flemish style) planking for the external wale, and a good proportion of the inboard planking, starting with the strakes below the orlop clamp. The other deck clamps are treated likewise, and, interestingly, the spirketting is tabled.

 

See picture below. Note the arrangement below the forecastle and quarterdeck.

 

Search NMM collections under planking, and narrow to the 18th century.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

image.png.7a9c8da442d4477492f8003804e4462a.png

Previously built models (long ago, aged 18-25ish) POB construction. 32 gun frigate, scratch-built sailing model, Underhill plans.

2 masted topsail schooner, Underhill plans.

 

Started at around that time, but unfinished: 74 gun ship 'Bellona' NMM plans. POB 

 

On the drawing board: POF model of Royal Caroline 1749, part-planked with interior details. My own plans, based on Admiralty draughts and archival research.

 

Always on the go: Research into Royal Navy sailing warship design, construction and use, from Tudor times to 1790. 

 

Member of NRG, SNR, NRS, SMS

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  • 2 weeks later...

I always love the original artefacts 🙂 

 

Here is the belle 🙂

 

f551t7990p182627n2_PWMGJEyO.jpg.ce70b4f42dc6de1153ab93f9adc6415f.jpg

 

XXXDAn

 

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

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... but the number is growing 🙂

 

XXXDAn

To victory and beyond! http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/76-hms-victory-by-dafi-to-victory-and-beyond/

See also our german forum for Sailing Ship Modeling and History: http://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/

Finest etch parts for HMS Victory 1:100 (Heller Kit) and other useful bits.

http://dafinismus.de/index_en.html

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