Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, it's wild how any images we get directly from Mike are so hard to get posted upright. This image, when righted reveals how slim and fine the Bow and Entrance of "Glory of the Seas" truly was. Again it reminds me that while she was referred to as a 'Medium Clipper' that was probably due to her near flat half floor for enhanced carrying capacity, still she had a lovely Hull.

Rob, some more observations from this never before seen image. Immediately I see that her catheads are contained entirely within her monkeyrail, from just above the lower moldings and from what I can see, bisect upper moldings. From best observations, the double monkeyrail moldings are about 3" each, which would make the Catheads 15" high most likely 12" wide. Regardless it's clear the caprail above the monkeyrail runs completely over the catheads. 

The triple moldings of her Main Bulwarks are well defined too. At the lower end, there's a smaller round molding, followed by a larger one which appears to rest on a wider shelf molding. These devices are repeated in reverse above. Knowing an interior dimension of this bulwark is 5' since exterior moldings bolt to 1' high waterways, sitting on 3" decks, it's actually 15" from 5' which would bring exterior dimension to 3'9". If these exterior moldings, not inclusive of the flat shelves, which aren't as noticeable are 31/2" each, that results in the area between moldings of 3'2". This further clarifies another struggle I've been having trying to reconcile a 5' interior wall when it's actually 3'9". Now it all makes sense and the 3'6" naval hoods will fit in much more harmoniously than they did before.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, please express my gratitude to Mike for his generosity in continuing to share these rare and incredibly sharp images of McKay's last Clipper. Seeing this angle, it's clear her Stern is truly curvilinear. She's almost flat towards the center and rounds towards both ends. I'm also struck by how fine her rear entrance is too. It reminds me of another famous McKay designed but not built by him Clipper Packet. The Newburyport 'Wild Boat of the Atlantic' extreme Packet "Dreadnought" under capable direction of 'Bully' Captain Samuel's once covered 183 nautical miles over 52 hours sailing backwards! He accomplished this amazing feat of seamanship when it became impossible to ship a jury rigged rudder to replace the original taken away in a storm. He refused to leave the damaged vessel when a French Steamship Captain offered to take him for medical care due to a severe compound fracture of his leg.

Now seeing the fine Stern run of Clipper "Glory of the Seas" it becomes more understandable how this could have been accomplished.

Samuel Samuels book...*From Forecastle to Cabin*...is then a must read for you Rich.  It was an amazing look into the clipper ship life.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

23 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Yes...most likely because she was on the West coast and the state of her hull(hogged) and her extremely reduced masts and rigging....prevented her from making a trip around the horn.  Just too expensive a prospect...and nobody on the West coast wanted her...not even San Fran.

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

Rob, from what I read in Mike's books, what ultimately doomed poor Glory were two main factors. Her metal cladding hadn't been replaced, so her lower hull was exposed to the dread 'toredo worm' and consequential rot and ironically all the heaving factory processing equipment added extra expense to remove and restore her. All in all, it's just such a damn shame and a pitiful loss. Unfortunately Glory also had to be sacrificed in order to save the USS Constitution. Restorers had enough funds to save one but not both....

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, from what I read in Mike's books, what ultimately doomed poor Glory were two main factors. Her metal cladding hadn't been replaced, so her lower hull was exposed to the dread 'toredo worm' and consequential rot

Yes that was also a factor that made her unseaworthy for sucha voyage.

 

But We're gonna rebuild her in all her Glory.........

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

7 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Yes that was also a factor that made her unseaworthy for sucha voyage.

 

But We're gonna rebuild her in all her Glory.........

 

Rob

Rob, sometings I get fanciful. Can you imagine setting up a "go fund me" site to actually build another full sized "Glory of the Seas" for real? I read where there's actually a group 'across the pond' that have a genuine proposal to build a full scale repilica of 'Cutty Sark' and sail her for real as a sail training ship.

Edited April 28, 2021 by ClipperFan
Grammar correction

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Samuel Samuels book...*From Forecastle to Cabin*...is then a must read for you Rich.  It was an amazing look into the clipper ship life.

 

Rob

Rob, buddy I have a sneaking suspicion that if we compared maritime libraries, we'd probably match almost entirely. I've had a first edition book of Capt'n Samuel's salty autobiography for years. What I didn't know until just recently was that although his shipyard didn't build her, she's a creation of Donald McKay all the same.  

[rwiederrich]

58 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, buddy I have a sneaking suspicion that if we compared maritime libraries, we'd probably match almost entirely.

That might be true...I do have an extensive clipper ship library..not to mention all the other nautical ship books I have.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Well..I put my hand at carving a 7/8" Athena.   It was a struggle but I think for this scale it will have to do.  I just ain't no carver of the human figure..  It isn't perfect but.......I'm no carver....did I say that?

 

Here are a few pics of my trouble.

Edited April 29, 2021 by rwiederrich

[Tony Hunt]

You're a harsh judge Rob. I think that looks extraordinarily good!

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Well..I put my hand at carving a 7/8" Athena.   It was a struggle but I think for this scale it will have to do.  I just ain't no carver of the human figure..  It isn't perfect but.......I'm no carver....did I say that?

 

Here are a few pics of my trouble.

Rob,

This is amazing. I bet Michael Mjelde as well as his daughter will be blown away by this little gem. Athene is not an easy figure to sculpt and when you consider that you're restricted to under an inch, I'd say your result is extraordinary! Great work! She definitely sets the tone for the rest of your vessel.

[ClipperFan]

I learned how to access a new feature of my phone. Voila! Screenshots of "Glory of the Seas" nameboard and the Samuel Walters oil which graces the cover of Michael Mjelde's wonderful first book that follows. This should help Vladimir and others see how this beautifully rugged device actually appeared.

Of course this in no way compares to Rob's gorgeously realized miniature Athene Figurehead. Compare his work to the one at the Bow of Walter's spectacular oil painting and well, there is no comparison. I am in awe of Rob's results. Believe me after spending years trying to capture her essence, I know how complex and challenging a Figurehead she is.

[rwiederrich]

30 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

I learned how to access a new feature of my phone. Voila! Screenshots of "Glory of the Seas" nameboard and the Samuel Walters oil which graces the cover of Michael Mjelde's wonderful first book that follows. This should help Vladimir and others see how this beautifully rugged device actually appeared.

Of course this in no way compares to Rob's gorgeously realized miniature Athene Figurehead. Compare his work to the one at the Bow of Walter's spectacular oil painting and well, there is no comparison. I am in awe of Rob's results. Believe me after spending years trying to capture her essence, I know how complex and challenging a Figurehead she is.

Thanks for the wonderful compliment.  It is as you say....a hard subject.  A lot goes out to the original carver of her in full scale.         Did you notice the bow image of Glory in your first name board picture?

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

6 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Well..I put my hand at carving a 7/8" Athena.   It was a struggle but I think for this scale it will have to do.  I just ain't no carver of the human figure..  It isn't perfect but.......I'm no carver....did I say that?

 

Here are a few pics of my trouble.

Rob you ate way too harsch on yourself indeed. its phenomenal. ! Carving in that scale is something extremely difficult and requires bloody skill i remember that from carving cutty sark bloody difficult ornamentals. You did put even beautiful face detailing with clear proportions and that is really something. hat off and i mean it. body proportions and hand reaching behind the head i would say it has more value than any 3d print as its handwork! i guess that secret magic lies somewhere in your teeth special instruments you have but its great! 

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

I learned how to access a new feature of my phone. Voila! Screenshots of "Glory of the Seas" nameboard and the Samuel Walters oil which graces the cover of Michael Mjelde's wonderful first book that follows. This should help Vladimir and others see how this beautifully rugged device actually appeared.

Of course this in no way compares to Rob's gorgeously realized miniature Athene Figurehead. Compare his work to the one at the Bow of Walter's spectacular oil painting and well, there is no comparison. I am in awe of Rob's results. Believe me after spending years trying to capture her essence, I know how complex and challenging a Figurehead she is.

Thanks Richard. Rob achieved something spectacularly authentic  didnt he?  I think that as well. 

[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Thanks for the wonderful compliment.  It is as you say....a hard subject.  A lot goes out to the original carver of her in full scale.         Did you notice the bow image of Glory in your first name board picture?

Rob, As you can see from all the well deserved accolades coming in from fellow modelers, your remarkable miniature carving efforts have been far more successful than you gave yourself credit for. Vladimir is absolutely right too. Even if it's possible to 3D print a meticulously precisely accurate miniature, it actually detracts from recognition of the artistic effort itself. One of the qualities of 17th Century miniaturists I admire most is their amazing carving abilities. For the same reason, I am constantly in awe of Doris and her incredibly lifelike sculptures is know that they're all hand carved from scratch. In conclusion, you have set a mighty high 'bar' my friend. It will be fascinating to see how others take up the challenge in their own creations, including possibly, eventually myself.

By the way, to answer your question, yes I did see the photo of Glory's Bow below her nameboard. However it wasn't until after being able to freeze the image did that occur.

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Thanks Richard. Rob achieved something spectacularly authentic  didnt he?  I think that as well. 

Vladimir,

You're so welcome, my friend. Rob has drawn some incredible talent to his once solo project, to the point where "theauthorsdaughter" noticed his determined progress and inspired her dad Michael Mjelde "the Big Kahuna" himself to get deeply involved in sharing his incredible treasure trove of spectacular photos. Your own computer CAD skills have made a major contribution as well. I am still doggedly determined to get Glory's true Hull form accurate. As we see more clear images of her from multiple viewpoints, including now an image of her Stern which is even sharper than bows of other contemporary sail powered vessels, I feel stronger than ever that we somehow come to a consensus on her true overall hydrodynamic appearance. We're about 95% there, it's just that elusive 5%....

[rwiederrich]

5 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Rob you ate way too harsch on yourself indeed. its phenomenal. ! Carving in that scale is something extremely difficult and requires bloody skill i remember that from carving cutty sark bloody difficult ornamentals. You did put even beautiful face detailing with clear proportions and that is really something. hat off and i mean it. body proportions and hand reaching behind the head i would say it has more value than any 3d print as its handwork! i guess that secret magic lies somewhere in your teeth special instruments you have but its great! 

Yes Vlad...I have some extremely small crown and bridge bits that are smaller then an 1/3 of a mm to help in my carving...but I still think my ability to carve the human form is lacking.  Good thing she was partially covered by a toga.  I do fondly appreciate your kind words.  I had hoped that if I start out with her as my opening subject and do well enough I will motivate myself to continue in her wake with similar detail.

 

Your words are very motivating...thank you.  I will be getting your book sent out soon.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, As you can see from all the well deserved accolades coming in from fellow modelers, your remarkable miniature carving efforts have been far more successful than you gave yourself credit for. Vladimir is absolutely right too. Even if it's possible to 3D print a meticulously precisely accurate miniature, it actually detracts from recognition of the artistic effort itself. One of the qualities of 17th Century miniaturists I admire most is their amazing carving abilities. For the same reason, I am constantly in awe of Doris and her incredibly lifelike sculptures is know that they're all hand carved from scratch. In conclusion, you have set a mighty high 'bar' my friend. It will be fascinating to see how others take up the challenge in their own creations, including possibly, eventually myself.

By the way, to answer your question, yes I did see the photo of Glory's Bow below her nameboard. However it wasn't until after being able to freeze the image did that occur.

Doris is in a field by herself.  To be named in the same sentence with her is truly an honor.

I can only attribute my skill to God and to over 30 years of dental laboratory and machining experience.  Plus its nice to have all the tools and goodies to help you.

I truly do not attempt to compare myself to others ability...we all have our strong and weak points.  I do, however, appreciate the encouragement and enthusiastic edification.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

56 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

I feel stronger than ever that we somehow come to a consensus on her true overall hydrodynamic appearance. We're about 95% there, it's just that elusive 5%....

That elusive 5% my be escaping us because we fail to recognize that it is actually artistic license.  I can assure you, that even though we all are engaged and concur, we will all produce slightly dissimilar models of her.  One, attenuates one small detail over another....one internalizes one aspect over another and will focus more heavily on their own interpretation of that aspect, or will not give it a thought.

Scale, plays a huge part in ones representative depiction of detail....and skill provides the illusion or replication of that detail.

 

Mike was telling me during our meeting that his errors were those caused by a single point of view and reference.  If he had a group, similar to ours...bouncing opinion and observations off one another....with there own grasp of the subject matter and applied skills....he too would have produced a more accurate model/drawing of Glory of the Seas hull himself.  He is tickled pink that after so many years, a group of like minded historian model shipwrights have taken up the task to pick up his mantle and push toward the mark of a true depiction of a beloved nautical masterpiece.

 

Rob

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, As you can see from all the well deserved accolades coming in from fellow modelers, your remarkable miniature carving efforts have been far more successful than you gave yourself credit for. Vladimir is absolutely right too. Even if it's possible to 3D print a meticulously precisely accurate miniature, it actually detracts from recognition of the artistic effort itself. One of the qualities of 17th Century miniaturists I admire most is their amazing carving abilities. For the same reason, I am constantly in awe of Doris and her incredibly lifelike sculptures is know that they're all hand carved from scratch. In conclusion, you have set a mighty high 'bar' my friend. It will be fascinating to see how others take up the challenge in their own creations, including possibly, eventually myself.

By the way, to answer your question, yes I did see the photo of Glory's Bow below her nameboard. However it wasn't until after being able to freeze the image did that occur.

That is exactly what i meant Richard. You know i myself was lately playing with 3D modeling figures. even antique figures for that reason so we could have precious arm and body pose to it and even toga overall dressed up but i lacked inspiration to continue for the same reason. at one point never in history was individual so close and fast from idea to finished product just as cnc or 3D printing allows, say even miniature face glipms or facial expression taken in miniature form. but it takes life from it bigger way that it seems. as original hand carved there are hands and eyes of sculptor to breathe life to wooden girl, its tradeoff of modern technologies that minds eyes and hand are detached from the object the way that only hand can say. there is danger in eprfection everyone wants to achieve - there is humsn imperfection in perfection that breathes life to it. your hand nameboard resemble that life computer one lacks....at least my thoughts of it... fro that i will proabyo tr to find a way to make my own one as well. but hoepw are not high though  

[Vladimir_Wairoa]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Doris is in a field by herself.  To be named in the same sentence with her is truly an honor.

I can only attribute my skill to God and to over 30 years of dental laboratory and machining experience.  Plus its nice to have all the tools and goodies to help you.

I truly do not attempt to compare myself to others ability...we all have our strong and weak points.  I do, however, appreciate the encouragement and enthusiastic edification.

 

Rob

Rob, I always admired your own unique way and ability not to compete in any way. And tried to learn from it in a good/my way. I myself dont follow the ( in my opinion  somehow broken) philosophy that there is only one way to Rome and paved with same stones. 

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

That elusive 5% my be escaping us because we fail to recognize that it is actually artistic license.  I can assure you, that even though we all are engaged and concur, we will all produce slightly dissimilar models of her.  One, attenuates one small detail over another....one internalizes one aspect over another and will focus more heavily on their own interpretation of that aspect, or will not give it a thought.

Scale, plays a huge part in ones representative depiction of detail....and skill provides the illusion or replication of that detail.

 

Mike was telling me during our meeting that his errors were those caused by a single point of view and reference.  If he had a group, similar to ours...bouncing opinion and observations off one another....with there own grasp of the subject matter and applied skills....he too would have produced a more accurate model/drawing of Glory of the Seas hull himself.  He is tickled pink that after so many years, a group of like minded historian model shipwrights have taken up the task to pick up his mantle and push toward the mark of a true depiction of a beloved nautical masterpiece.

 

Rob

Rob, while I understand your reference to artistic license, I don't believe that's what any of us have been doing. Instead, by using multiple photos generously shared by Mike (still ongoing, I might add) and meticulously researching precise dimensions in comparison to the most accurate images we can get, we have been methodically recreating McKay's last, lost Clipper in amazing detail. You probably recognize the name Björn Landström. I draw my inspiration from his incredible marine art reconstructions of ships from contemporary artist's works. I believe that "Glory of the Seas" had a finer entrance and exit than she previously had been given credit for. Even the most recent Bow and Stern views bare that out. 

I'm glad that Mike is so enthusiastic with our progress. After relentlessly pursuing the most accurate recreation possible for 12 years now, I just want to make sure I don't stop short just before the finish line....

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, Vladimir_Wairoa said:

Rob, I always admired your own unique way and ability not to compete in any way. And tried to learn from it in a good/my way. I myself dont follow the ( in my opinion  somehow broken) philosophy that there is only one way to Rome and paved with same stones. 

I'm an advocate of *There are many ways to skin a cat*.  One persons way may not be another's...that's OK.

 

I'm a hack builder..I tend to use other peoples engineered things and convert them into my own purpose.  I'll use whatever material I can find to fashion into what ever I am building.  I'm not a *Purist* by any stretch of the meaning.    My model will consist of woods, plastics, paper, metals, waxes, fillers, bondo's, Gypsum, Just about anything I can use to create the final outcome.

So don't be surprised......

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

57 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, while I understand your reference to artistic license, I don't believe that's what any of us have been doing. Instead, by using multiple photos generously shared by Mike (still ongoing, I might add) and meticulously researching precise dimensions in comparison to the most accurate images we can get, we have been methodically recreating McKay's last, lost Clipper in amazing detail. You probably recognize the name Björn Landström. I draw my inspiration from his incredible marine art reconstructions of ships from contemporary artist's works. I believe that "Glory of the Seas" had a finer entrance and exit than she previously had been given credit for. Even the most recent Bow and Stern views bare that out. 

I'm glad that Mike is so enthusiastic with our progress. After relentlessly pursuing the most accurate recreation possible for 12 years now, I just want to make sure I don't stop short just before the finish line....

I completely agree.  My *rant* was suggestive of the 5% you cannot interpret accurately....because of a lack of evidence or through the failure to truly validate an aspect.  I don't believe any of us have been exercising artistic license in leu of true calculable data.   But at times it will happen.

Not every thing can be known...even from the limited photographic evidence we do have.  It has been shown that even first hand recollections can be skewed.  Exampled by the news paper articles we have inspected.

 

Your attention to details has been paramount in us gaining a true picture of Glory's figure.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

7 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I completely agree.  My *rant* was suggestive of the 5% you cannot interpret accurately....because of a lack of evidence or through the failure to truly validate an aspect.  I don't believe any of us have been exercising artistic license in leu of true calculable data.   But at times it will happen.

Not every thing can be known...even from the limited photographic evidence we do have.  It has been shown that even first hand recollections can be skewed.  Exampled by the news paper articles we have inspected.

 

Your attention to details has been paramount in us gaining a true picture of Glory's figure.

 

Rob

Rob, thank you for the compliment, that was very big of you. In all fairness though, we have to give the nod to Mike who's lifetime of research has led us to this point.

[ClipperFan]

7 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I'm an advocate of *There are many ways to skin a cat*.  One persons way may not be another's...that's OK.

 

I'm a hack builder..I tend to use other peoples engineered things and convert them into my own purpose.  I'll use whatever material I can find to fashion into what ever I am building.  I'm not a *Purist* by any stretch of the meaning.    My model will consist of woods, plastics, paper, metals, waxes, fillers, bondo's, Gypsum, Just about anything I can use to create the final outcome.

So don't be surprised......

 

Rob

Rob, after seeing your impressive "Great Republic" build, the very last word I'd use to describe your work is hack. Inventive, creative, inspired are much more appropriate to your process.

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, after seeing your impressive "Great Republic" build, the very last word I'd use to describe your work is hack. Inventive, creative, inspired are much more appropriate to your process.

Well.......I appreciate that .....but....actually, I am quite the unorthodox model builder.  I don’t mind skipping processes typically held by the most revered modeler or taking liberties with techniques not typical to the purist of modeler.  Being creative and inventive and a bit overboard are my coat of arms.  Duct tape is a viable building material and paint covers a multitude of sins.  But whatever form of trickery I employ, the final outcome must still be a scale replica, fashioned as accurately and masterfully as I can muster.      I’m so glad you and Vladimir are fellow  travelers on this journey.  And I appreciate your kind words and continual praise.  I really feel I’m just an average model maker.....who happens to be ingenious at times.  I’m always trying to make things easier and less arduous.    Your words are very kind.

 

Now, back to that 5%...in your assessment what *tweaking*  do you perceive is still required to attain a 100% correct hull design for Glory?  What still makes you feel uncomfortable?

 

Rob

Edited April 30, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

I think my next invention will be to make the draw blades for making the planksheer and molding trim.  I'll need to devise a clamping gig to hold the wood strip...while the blade is drawn across the strip creating the molding.    I might also make a router table bit to do the job as well. (That will be fun)

 

Rob

Edited April 30, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

Everyone...one tidbit I failed to mention is that Mike had his first book republished and is carried by Mystic Seaport.  The original manuscript published in 1970 had some textual and photographic errors that the original publisher had misidentified.

One image in question was the opening leaf page that has an image of Donald McKay...actually contains an image of Donald McKay's office technician...it was erroneously identified as McKay.

There are several other corrections as well.

I had to have the 2000 republished volume for my library.  It is thinner and made with modern papers.   It will be a valued addition to my collection.

 

Copies can be had at AbeBooks too.

 

Rob 

[rwiederrich]

I spent a bit of time today working on several things...first:

 

I had to begin work on the trim scribe tool....  I made several designs of trim and post them here.

These are probably not the ones I will use for Glory, but I experimented with designs and I ran several design cuts to see how the tool works.  It's pretty nifty...all you do is draw the tool across the scale plank.  Do this several times till you have the desired dept.

 

Here are 3 examples..carved on 1ft wide scale timber...or 1/8"= 1ft for 1/96 scale.