Wing transom/fashion piece joint

[Don Case]

I've reached the first real problem on the Discovery1789 build. I have no drawings of the stern. There is a couple of paintings  but the old one is very pixelated and the other is recent(2012). The first problem that no drawings is causing me is the wing transom/fashion piece joint. Any drawings of ships of the era are usually of 50 or more guns meaning more decks. The Discovery only has two decks(depending on how you count them sorta) there is just not as much going on in that corner. Steel says that the the wing transom sits on top of the fashion piece with a horizontal knee but is there something that actually ties the transom to the fashion piece? Mortice and tenon maybe? 

I've done some searching on here and on the web with no luck. Would anyone have a link to a build of the same era/size ship that may have some pictures of the framing of the stern?

Thanks

Edited April 3, 2021 by Don Case

[allanyed]

Hi Don,

It depends, as seems to be usual.   Often the wing transom  had a tenon that sits in a mortise  on the aft side of the fashion piece rather than on top.  Keep in mind that Steel is 1805 and Discovery is 1789 so Steel may not necessarily apply to Discovery.   I don't know one way or the other, hopefully some member has contemporary information on this.   The first drawing below shows the wing and other transoms with mortise and tenon for each joining on the aft side of the fashion piece.  It is a bit difficult to see the wing transom as the wales are dark but the wing transom and fashion piece lines are there.  If you have trouble seeing this PM me and I can send this to you so maybe you can see it enlarged with more clarity.  It can get even more complicated in some cases as there may  have been what might be called a fashion piece and half or aft fashion piece.  I hope some member can give the proper terminology for these double fashion pieces if they are actually called something else.  The forward one is fayed solid to the aft one so may all be part of what would be called fashion piece(s).   This was the case in the second drawing of Aquilon 1786 where the second transom sat on the top of the aft fashion piece, not the wing transom, but perhaps in you case it did sit on top of it.  If it did it would probably have had a mortise and tenon into the aft side of the frame (forward fashion piece?) but I don't know that it would have a mortice and tenon into the top of the aft, or shorter fashion piece. 

 

 

The full framing drawing is in the Wiki list and can be found at 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/'Aquilon'_(1786)%2C_(also_spelt_Aquillon_or_Acquillon)_RMG_J7958.png

[druxey]

In the lower image (the upper one is an early 17th century example) the 'short' timber is the fashion piece and the abutting one forward of it is the aftermost (half) cant frame. The transoms were usually tenoned or dovetailed into the fashion pieces.

[archnav]

Hi Don

 

20 years ago I was deep in research work of HMS Victory. I visited the ship several times in the 1980`s and 1990`s.

When studying the plans of Mr. John McKay / Canada, I was very disappointed. I started redrawing the framework, in particular the Stern timbers.

The fallowing drawings are in made in 1:48 and I was told in 1985 from the carpenters on board that the original Stern Transoms had tenons for the connection into the fashion pieces. See my drawings.

 

The work of David Steel can be used back until about the 1770`s - he adopted much of his work from earlier writers such as Stalkartt and "Shipbuilders Repository".

 

I hope this is of help.

[Don Case]

Thanks guys, I guess I'll have to make a decision here. I'm working on the aft cant frames and depending on how they settle in and how the last one(fashion piece) sits will decide where the wing transom goes. Some serious thinkin' and measurin' coming up.

Allan, I had that drawing(second one) in my stuff with "unknown" as it's name. Now I know it's the Aquilon. Thanks. Oh, I got your book, nicely done thanks again🙂 

[druxey]

Usually the wing transom is fitted first.

[Phil Babb]

Hope you have sorted your problem,  I am trying to sort the proper construction of the stern of a 1798 naval cutter, Sprightly,  I have a huge collection of books, apart from a sketch in Stevens I can find nothing of any help 

[druxey]

Phil: if you can post an image or images of a drawing  and photo what you are trying to build, perhaps we can assist you.

[Gregory]

What is the nature of your project?  Plank on frame ?  Plank on bulkhead ?

 

Do you have any plans at all?

[Phil Babb]

Hi Druxey and Gregory, I am building plank on frame, I have the drawings for the Sprightly,  also I have been using the anatomy of ship on the Alert, I have now having spent a few days in my workshop on the model ,sorted the stern construction,  at 3/16, its a model I have wanted to build for nigh on 40 years, part cutaway showing cabins etc and rigged. Iam at the age of should be retired but cannot give up work ,so hence I don't get into my smaller workshop to work on the model as much.

Hope to be planking in the coming months, will post some photos then, thanks all

[Gregory]

Earlier you said:

 

On 8/15/2021 at 5:42 PM, Phil Babb said:

I can find nothing of any help 

The NMM plans and the Alert book  is all I would have recommended.

 

Perhaps when you have some photos, you can point out the problem you are having.