HMS Victory by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100 - PLASTIC

[Bill97]

OK guys give me a hint. I am again learning nautical terms. As I learn them I can research Longridge’s book for the route of the line. Reading through the book I think I have the names of 5 of the 8 fore stays identified (maybe not). What are the names of the fore stays in the picture from the top down?  Once I know their names I can determine their rigging in route to the knightheads. 

[Bill97]

After the last comment I found this photo online. Will see how this compares to Longridge. 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Bill97

[Ian_Grant]

In your first photo:

 

Fore royal stay which goes to end of flying jib boom see Fig 166.

 

Flying jib stay goes from taveller on flying jib boom to sheave of fore topgallant mast Fig 178.

 

Fore topgallant stay also seen in Fig 178; goes to grommet at end of jib boom see Fig 165, then to port knighthead.

 

Jib stay goes from traveller on jib boom through sheaves on topmast head see Plan 9.

 

Topmast stay and preventer.

 

Forestay and preventer.

 

Not shown: fore topmast staysail stay. I think Longridge omits this as not being a permanent part of the rig as he states pg 225. It is also absent from the belaying diagram. One would think it would be near the jibstay and flying jibstay purchases.....

 

The royal, topgallant, topmast, and fore stays are set up taut and then pretty much left alone unless they stretch.

 

The jib stay and flying jib stay. being connected to the travellers, increase or decrease in length as the travellers are adjusted. That's why they go through sheaves and down to the deck with tackles; they need to be hauled in or let out if the travellers are moved, in order to set the jib and flying jib sails properly.

[Bill97]

Thanks Ian. I was reviewing the belaying diagram and wanting to make sure I had the six lines that go to the two Knightheads. I saw in Longridge’s diagram the names of the lines. I was then going to the index to find the line, and then to the text. Then I wrote the name by the line I thought I understood. I got the bottom 4 right and almost the fore top gallant stay right 😀.

 

The text says the top spritsail yard uses a parral. It is so tiny that far out on the bowsprit!  Did you try to make one that little?

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Bill97

[72Nova]

Bill,

Looking good as usual 👍, but curious as to why you used dead eyes at the bowsprit horse eye bolts on the gangboard?. I've never seen them rigged like before.

 

Michael D.

[Bill97]

Michael thanks for bringing that to my attention. I believe the honest answer to that is that I think I miss read Longridge’s instructions. In the picture from Longridge’s Plan #6 it looks like the way I did it, not the way he explains it. In the paragraph Longridge says to rove the line through a bull’s eye attached to the fore preventer stay. The inner end is then seized round a thimble lashed to the eyebolt. I misread that as a deadeye lashed to the eyebolt. Will have to redo that once I figure out what a bull’s eye is, and after I install the fore preventer stay collar. 

[Bill97]

As I make my way along in this build I find myself often changing direction or planned building sequence. My most recent plan was to complete the standing rigging on the bow sprit then move to the shrouds and standing rigging on the 3 lower mast. I am realizing now that is not a good route because I can’t complete the bowsprit rigging without the completed foremast because of the upper stays on the foremast that run through the bowsprit. This would continue to be the domino effect working toward the mizzenmast mast. So I think I will now fully construct all 3 masts before getting back to standing rigging. 

[Ian_Grant]

15 hours ago, Bill97 said:

 

The text says the top spritsail yard uses a parral. It is so tiny that far out on the bowsprit!  Did you try to make one that little?

 

In fact I did. I used just seed beads, I think size 15/0, painted black. It is tiny so I omitted the wood bits between.

[Ian_Grant]

2 hours ago, Bill97 said:

 Will have to redo that once I figure out what a bull’s eye is, and after I install the fore preventer stay collar. 

 

Bill, a bullseye is round like a deadeye, grooved around the edge, but with only a single central hole. Also called a thimble. You can get them from model fittings suppliers although they seem to be harder to find lately since Model Dockyard closed due to retirement. Now that I look again, I see them here though oddly named.

 

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/32571-Cording-Roller-Wood-2.5mm--Pack-of-10--32571.html#SID=67

[Bill97]

Thanks Ian. So I could probably just live with the deadeyes I used since I don’t have any bullseyes or thimbles?  Would look somewhat similar. Do you read the Longridge instructions and the plate as conflicting reference the bowsprit horses? The plate shows them going directly to the bullseye on the gangboard. His text says to go through an eye on the fore preventer stay. 

[Ian_Grant]

I just passed the ends through the gangboard eyes and seized them because even those 2.5mm thimbles looked oversized.

 

No, the diagram does not appear to show the thimbles on the stay collar but they might be hard to depict, being so small. You could just lash them, I think that's what I did.

 

Bill, I suggest you buy some of these thimbles. I used a lot of them for example at the bases of the main topmast and mizzen stays, where the mizzen stays reach the mainmast, at the boomkins, and a pair on each topgallant shroud. They were just too fiddly to make with the groove around the edge.

 

[Bill97]

OK Ian thanks. I will just take out the deadeyes and run new threads to the eyebolts. 
 

Ian are the thimbles standard size throughout the ship or would I need different sizes?

 

Last question for the night Ian.  Would you mind deciphering the route of the Main Preventer Stay?  I figured out and understand the route and rigging of the Main Preventer Stay (although I do not have any hearts either. 😊). May have to order them as well as thimbles. The Preventer Stay is a little confusing. 

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, I assume you meant you are ok with the main stay but confused with the preventer 🤔.

 

The preventer stay collar differs from the mainstay collar in that the ends are spliced to form a continuous loop of rope, unlike the mainstay collar where an eye is formed in one end and the other passes through it (after passing through the gangway, knightheads, and gammoning knee) and is then seized to itself.

 

Fig 140 shows the structure of the preventer collar. It shows that the splice is positioned at the heart ("laid in the groove of the lower heart"). The two ends straddle the bowsprit and are lashed together beneath it. In practice I cannot splice thread so I concealed the join beneath one of the lashings at the sides of the heart with a little CA to keep it together.

 

You can see these collars in Plan 6 Standing Rigging (yes, the big foldout. It's surprisingly useful!), with the mainstay collar passing through the knightheads and on down, but the preventer collar passing round the bowsprit only. Incidentally, on the old Pete Coleman Victory Modelling website, there was a bit of a debate about "the bend in the main preventer stay". You can see in Plan 6 that it passes by the knightheads before bending. If you build the Heller kit as supplied, this bend does not happen since there is no crosspiece between the two knightheads to support the rope in this manner. Thus the preventer collar lies against the main collar resulting in the main and preventer stays being too close together.

 

I don't recall whether you bought Daniel's resin knighthead piece. It includes a crosspiece which allows realistic rigging of the preventer stay.

 

I made the hearts out of wood; they're large enough to not be too difficult.

 

Have you obtained large threads for some of these lines? The nearest thread diameters for fore and main stays is 1.6mm thread at scale; both preventers are 1.3mm at scale. Mizzen stay is 0.75mm, preventer 0.5mm. The fore and main topmast stays are 0.75mm; their preventers are 0.5mm.

 

At the time I could not find 1.6mm black so I bought natural and fabric-dyed it.

 

Hope this helps.

 

EDIT:  Oh, I just bought the smallest thimbles I could find, the 2.5mm ones.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Ian_Grant

[Bill97]

Thanks Ian (my very wise teacher). I will read over all you said here and see if I have any follow up questions. 

Initially reading through real quick, yes I am Ok with the main stay (or was until you mentioned thread size). 

Yes my Main Stay does bend at the knight head and goes down through a hole in the knee and then up the other side. 

I did not get Daniel’s knighthead piece. 

I am contemplating making my own hearts. It seems that hearts and bull’s eyes or thimbles are pretty much the same thing, just different shape?

No I don’t have thread that large. My largest is .6mm!  That is the largest Heller called for in there instructions. I may have to get some larger for the stays or just live with the smaller .6mm. Will a 1.6mm even go through the hole in the Knightheads, especially if served? 

[Bill97]

Hey gang are hearts, thimbles, and bull’s eyes virtually the same thing?  Just different shape and size maybe?

[Bill97]

Some progress rigging the bow area and bowsprit. Followed Longridge’s directions to install the main stay and main preventer stay collars. Since the instructions call for a heart in the collars I decided to make a couple out of wooden deadeyes  by drilling out the centers. I don’t have hearts or thimbles but do have plenty of deadeyes so I may use this same idea in other places where hearts are needed. I see I need to add a drop of wood stain to the insides. Also since my largest cord on hand is .6mm I just went with that as directed by Heller. I attached the 3 rigging lines to each of the knightheads and ran them in reverse to their future end points. Since I replaced the plastic dolphin striker supplied by Heller with a brass rod for strength, I did not have the four holes in the end of striker to run the martingales through. As a result I just wrapped the cord around the rod and applied a dot of CA. Still need to attach the ends to the bowsprit as directed by Longridge. Also have the two lines that go from the knightheads up through the bees to later be stays for the foremast. 

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, I strongly advise you to buy some larger thread sizes despite what Heller may say. In general, the higher up the mast the lighter the rigging. The model's appearance will not be as pleasing to the eye if light threads are used lower down. The main stay is the largest rope in the ship apart from the anchor cable. Even the fore and main lower shrouds are 1.0 mm at scale; your 0.6 will be too slight. For example see post #801 and see how my fore stay and preventer are much more robust than the topmast stays. It just looks better balanced as a mechanical construct.

 

As always though, it's your model.....🙂

[Bill97]

I believe I will Ian. I see what you mean. I will probably keep the collars I already have installed. Won’t be that noticeable with the seizing already done to them. What do you think about the hearts I made?  Think they are doable?  

[tomganc]

It looks great and in terms of rope sizes I may be of little help here. I managed to get a spreadsheet from here somewhere (can't remember exact location) but I was able to calculate the rope sizes depending on the model scale. It will give you some perspective especially for the standing rigging as there is quite few different sized ropes there

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2022 by tomganc

[Bill97]

Thanks Tomganc. That is handy. I believe I will round up and down to maybe use 4 or 5 sizes. Some of them or pretty small at .12, .17, .22mm is that correct?

[Ian_Grant]

Remember Bill that you have my spreadsheet specific to Victory. The rigging sizes are given in it as per Longridge, and at 1/100 scale. Actual threads only come in given sizes, such as 0.1, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, 1.0 mm. Larger sizes tend to come in shorter lengths.

 

Your hearts would be good for the upper hearts on the stays, but to be accurate the lower hearts are open. Look again at Fig 140.

[Bill97]

Oh yeah Ian that’s right. I forgot That spread sheet you sent me several months ago. At the time I was way before rigging and filed it away on my computer. I dug it out. This will be very helpful. To be cost effective I still will most likely round up or down the number of sizes I use/purchase. 

[Bill97]

Ian I was looking at your drawing of the inhaul and outhaul for the jib traveller. Looks real good and makes perfect since. Reading through Longridge book page 235, bottom paragraph, I can’t determine if the inhaul and outhaul for the flying jib traveller are set up the same way. Did you do it the same way?  Also, did you use the haulers to actually keep the traveller in the desired position on the jib boom, or did you apply a touch of CA to keep it in place with the haulers providing the illusion?

[Ian_Grant]

HI Bill, yes he is a little vague here.

 

I rigged the flying outhaul similarly except I didn't bother making a long tackle block I just used a small double block. The single block is attached to an eye on the starboard side of the bowsprit cap, opposite that for the jib outhaul on the port side. I can't recall if I actually found that info somewhere but it makes sense I think. I used the plastic flying job boom so I was able to drill a small sheave hole near the end. With your brass boom you may need a small block.

 

I rigged the flying inhaul the same as that for the jib; starting at the end of the jib boom, through the block on the traveller then to a timberhead.

 

I didn't glue the travellers in place. They are a very loose fit on the booms. The haulers retain them.

 

These lines interest me. I'd have thought the wind on the sail would be trying to push it forward thus the inhaul would require more force thus more winding through blocks for mechanical advantage than for the outhaul but it is in fact the opposite.

[Bill97]

Thanks Ian. Did you go ahead and do it at the time you did the standing rigging or wait until you did the running rigging?  I am thinking to keep those standing rigging lines in place I probably need to go ahead and put the haulers on and tie them down?  What is your thoughts. 
By the way, based on your recommendation I have purchased rigging thread 1, .8, .65, .55, .45, .35, and .15mm. I am just going to round up or down with those diameters. For the stays that are bigger than 1mm I may seize them the entire length to give them the appearance of being thicker. 

[Gingerterry]

Good evening. I have just purchased this kit after reading many reviews. I have opened the kit today and had a quick look over the sprus.

 

I can't see any issues with the deadeyes at this point, they all look very detailed. Another thing that I checked was the detail on the decking grain, and again it seems proportionate with the planks. 

 

This kind of leads me to think that it may have been retooled recently to address people's reviews. Does anybody know how to find out what tooling was used on my particular model?. Looking forward to doing this kit. I had a mess round with a 50 year old mantua kit but fund the wood was pretty much shot, and the instructions left a lot to be desired. I have the recommended books that everyone praises so reckon I can make a lot better effort than the wooden kit. Fingers crossed. 

 

 

[Bill97]

OK Ian just a bit more clarification on the jib inhaul and outhaul. Longridge refers to a downhauler as well on page 234. In the next to last sentence on the page he stated that all 3 haulers (in, out, and down belay to the timber heads. Plan #10 (Belaying Plan) only shows the in and out hauler for the jib and flying jib. Is the downhauler the same as one of the others, he maybe just used two different names?  Also your drawing showing how you figured out the instructions, and Longridge’s instructions, show the outhauler going through the hole in the outer end of the Jibboom and then seized to the long block. The middle part of the instructions on page 234 say for both the inhauler and downhauler to go through the single blocks attached to the traveler. When I ran the outhauler the way you described and Longridge maybe confusingly did it runs under the traveler and the line rubs up against the bottom thimble. Should it go through the single block on the traveler before heading back to the long block to keep it off the thimble? Or do I have something completely wrong, which I would not be surprised. 🤔

[Ian_Grant]

2 hours ago, Gingerterry said:

Good evening. I have just purchased this kit after reading many reviews. I have opened the kit today and had a quick look over the sprus.

 

I can't see any issues with the deadeyes at this point, they all look very detailed. Another thing that I checked was the detail on the decking grain, and again it seems proportionate with the planks. 

 

This kind of leads me to think that it may have been retooled recently to address people's reviews. Does anybody know how to find out what tooling was used on my particular model?. Looking forward to doing this kit. I had a mess round with a 50 year old mantua kit but fund the wood was pretty much shot, and the instructions left a lot to be desired. I have the recommended books that everyone praises so reckon I can make a lot better effort than the wooden kit. Fingers crossed. 

 

 

Terry (I presume?).......Scalemates doesn't seem to mention any new tooling since 1979 unless I missed it. See below:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION[]=All&q=heller+victory*

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, referring to the traveller diagram you showed from pg 235, the block labelled 8 is for the jib downhaul. The foot of the jib is held by the hook on the traveller, and the peak of the jib by the jib halyard which we see on Plan 9 coming through the sheave immediately below the sheave passing the jib stay. The halyard is used to haul the jib sail up the jib stay to set it. The jib downhaul from the traveller passes up the stay and is also fixed to the peak of the jib. It is used to haul the jib down when reducing sail.

 

The jib and fore topmast staysail halyards belay on bulwark cleats seen about the middle of pg 266. The flying jib halyard is not shown, I think I tied it to an unused timberhead near the jib halyard.

 

As you say, neither the jib nor the flying jib downhaul is shown in Longridge's belaying diagram; I tied them to convenient timberheads on the forecastle rail.  EDIT: Yes, Hackney shows them leading to the centre two timberheads.

 

My dinner is ready, must go. Will read the rest of your post later.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Ian_Grant
clarification

[Bill97]

Ok thanks Ian. I am going to have to study this some more and read over your comment several more times. I do now understand there is a down haul as well as the in and out. I understand these are used to control the jib sail. The inhaul and outhaul move the traveller horizontally along the jib boom and the down haul is used to pull the jib sail up the jib stay. I think I got that. And I now understand what block 8 is for. So I still have the issue of the outhauler line running directly under the traveller when the traveller is all the way out and as a result the line rubs against thimble #6.