Jeer Bitts attached at deck level

[Dr Syn]

Hi All, can anyone point me to a picture or diagram of how the main yard hoisting tackle on a 18c ship was attached at the deck. I can find loads of photos of the top end at the crosstrees but nothing at deck level. I am trying to scratch build HMS Mordaunt (my version LOL) using pictures and what plans I can find on the net but it is not clear how they work. The "posts" either end of the pin rails in front of the mast show two pulleys at the base so I assume a double sheave block would be above it. But as the pin rail protrudes over one side, wouldn't this foul on the rope tackle, or am I missing something.

[Dr Syn]

Here's what I'm missing

[allanyed]

Syn

 I found a fourth rate Mordaunt in the 17th century, (1681)  but no Mordaunt from the 18th century.  It probably does not matter too much as the rigging for the jeers was pretty much the same from 1670  to 1811 depending on the rating of the ship. Can you post a photo or two of what you have found so far?    If it is indeed from 1681 Richard Endsor has fantastic plans/ drawings of her in The Master Shipwright's Secrets that you would benefit from having to achieve accuracy in your model.  

 

In the meantime, based on information from Lees' Masting and Rigging English Ships of War and Anderson's Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast (1600-1720) I   there would be a double jeers for the lower yard (both main and fore).  There are very clear drawings of the upper part of the jeer rigging on pages 64 and 65 in Lees' book.   In general each standing part was hitched or seized to the yard.     Each of the two running parts rove between upper and lower blocks on the yard and sling in the tops then went down to the bitts.   The port line went through the inboard  sheave on the port bitt and belayed to the cross piece.  The starboard line went through the inboard sheave on the starboard bitt and then belayed to the cross piece.  Neither line went through two sheaves.     Other lines ran through the other sheave holes.   Belaying pins were not used at the time of Mordaunt.

 

In case you have not already seen these photos, there is a  model of Mordaunt 1681 at RMG that you can see in the collection section.  https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-65965  This is a admiralty style, not rigged, but may be of some help none-the-less.

Allan

Edited December 10, 2021 by allanyed

[Dr Syn]

Thanks for that Allan, yes, sorry it's the 1681 ship not 18c.

I'd assumed that because the drg I found of the bitts had 4 holes in the bottom then it was attached to a block above it. Here's the plan I'm using and it shows a block above the bitt.

The photo is my build so far

[TBlack]

Dear Dr.

I'm sure Allan can help you get to the bottom of your rigging question. I just wanted to mention that your model looks cracker jack, especially the carving.

Tom

[allanyed]

Hi Syn,

What they seem to show are ties, not jeers.  It is hard to tell from the drawing but it looks like they may actually be a combination of ties and jeers on the same line which I don't think was ever used.  Ties were no longer used on small ships by about 1640 and 1660 on large ships.  Both Franklin and Lees concur on this approximate time line.   I realize it is not your doing, but rather the kit plans, as I see a several other things that are not correct.    For example, there are what appear to be holes in the bitt cross pieces as if there were supposed to be belaying pins.  The problem is belaying pins were not used on Mordaunt, or any British ship in the 17th century for that matter.  And, when they came into use on cross pieces in the 18th century, they were not in double rows.   Another example are the gratings.  There should not be open holes on the ends, and the battens should be running fore and aft, not the ledges.  Again, I assume this is likely poor research on the part of the kit maker.  For future, it is always a good idea to research everything with most kits the same as if it were a scratch build.   

 

If the rigging situation is still unclear, my apologies.  Let me know and I will try to take a little time to do a sketch as I don't think it is a good idea to post copies of the drawings from the books as they are under copyright protection.

 

Allan

[Dr Syn]

Thank you everyone for the info. This is my 6th boat since covid started. I started off with a simple beach boat, then a junk, a dhow, and Slocum's Spray, all scratch including the latest two, Inglemanland and the Mordaunt , the only thing I bought was chain, paint, basswood sheet for the second planking and thread to make my own rope. I learnt a lot each time and tried not to make the same mistakes. I've nearly finished this one so maybe I'll get the next historically correct as well, even if the design isn't an exact match because I don't use proper plans. 

Thanks again 

Mick (Dr. Syn) 

[Dr Syn]

Ps, thanks for the offer of the drgs, but as I'd already rigged the foremast  I'm going to keep these the same even if they are not historically correct. The info on the gratings and battens is all new to me, thanks

Keep safe 

Mick

[allanyed]

It is always a learning process Mick.  Lord knows I never run out of new information (because of my making mistakes)  after forty five  years of scratch building  in this hobby. 

 

Regarding the battens and ledges of the gratings, the below is easier than words.  I admire you taking on scratch building.   For your next build, if you continue with scratching, there are about 800 sets of high resolution plans held by RMG available for free along with a couple thousand low res available on the Wiki Commons website.  There are of course thousands more available from RMG in low res for free and high res for a price.

 

I look forward to your next build log!

 

Aside ...... are you an aficionado of Thorndike's Doctor Syn book series?  If you are, would you recommend them to a prospective Romney Marsh series reader?

 

Allan

Edited December 12, 2021 by allanyed

[Dr Syn]

Thanks for that Allen, I'll look up the plans. And thanks for all the info on the other things. I moved to Yorkshire many moons ago from Kent, I used to fish out of the Marsh, Hythe, Folkestone, and when I bought a Wayfarer in Yorkshire I named it Dr.Syn for the connection. I now have a leisure 22 and after 8 yrs with it have decided to rename it Dr.Syn next year when I get back over to it. And yes I'd recommend the books. I'm not keen on the first film but do like the Disney one with Patrick Mcgoohan 

Are you on the Marsh by any chance. 

Keep safe 

Mick 

[allanyed]

Mick,

I am not familiar with the area you mention as I live in Florida.  Sorry to go off topic, but as you are a fisherman I thought you would appreciate the following.  We had a 25 foot sport fisherman but sold it after having it for 10 years and took up golf.  I still try to get out on the water for fishing four or five times a year though and as a former seafarer in the merchant marine, I think I will always have a love of the sea.   Still like to gather with friends in Loreto, Mexico for a week of fishing the Sea of Cortez every year or two.  Pictures from one of the best trips to Mexico follows.  Two of us had 124 dorado (mahi mahi) over 30 pounds and four striped marlin (all released.)   

Allan

 

 

 

[Dr Syn]

Wow, some fish. We have nothing that size around the UK now, overfishing by foreign boats for the last 50yrs

[allanyed]

Even in Mexico there are daily limits on most species to avoid overfishing.  For the dorado it is two per person which we share with the panga captain and local restaurants as we can only carry so much in coolers on planes back to the US.  

Allan