HMS Terror by richardhd - OcCre

[allanyed]

4 hours ago, Cathead said:

Whereas lots of people keep buying trash from Corel, AL, etc.

It is nice to see someone else speak out.  Hopefully your post will not be taken down for trashing a sponsor.

Allan 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by allanyed

[richardhd]

I hope not. Beginners like myself won’t be able to make informed decisions about kit purchasing unless someone is speaking this plainly. I’ve learned a lot just from these last few posts. 

[richardhd]

Hi all,

 

Some extra time in the shipyard this weekend. Nothing significant to detail, but got most of the second layer planking done. There are some spots that require additional attention, but she’s starting to look like the Terror and that’s exciting! Big thanks to Allanyed and Cathead on their advice about planking as well as wood and kit selection. Will be referencing these comments in the future. In the meantime here are the latest pictures. Hoping to get the keel on and paint this ship in the coming weeks.

 

Note: You’ll notice green marks along the hull. This is to identify where the bulkheads (and nails) are along the hull. I will of course prime and paint over these, but I wanted to add them for reference as I’m considering implementing DanielD’s strategy of building removable ice chocks that can be painted separately and aligned with dowels.

Also: Some areas of filler are visible. While the sanded hull is smooth and featureless to the touch, my planking skill set is not. Ideally this will not be very noticeable after painting, but needless to say I’ve learned many lessons about planking on this build

Edited August 17, 2022 by richardhd

[Keith S]

It's going to be fine. I am impressed with how you modified the stern so it looks the same as the real "Terror". I did not do that, while Clearway (one of the three main Keiths) took the plunge and his model is the best one here. I was too timid because it was my first model. I didn't think it would matter. But now I've become passionate about realism and I slightly regret not altering the stern on mine. 

 

Don't worry too much about the quality of the Occre kit. A lot of the advice you're getting will be from guys who have built a few models before. You can do this. Have a look at my build (I haven't worked on it in a while) and Daniel's, and Clearway's. We have all been helping each other do research on what the real ship looked like. Plus, now there is Dr. Matthew Betts' book you can use as reference. You can do as much or as little scratch-building as you like. We can all give you measurements when you get stuck. We have books with correct dimensions for Royal Navy rigs. Nothing is a secret. 
 

Your hull is doing just fine. There are manufacturers who have varying levels of quality, but there are also different TYPES of models. This one has thicker shaping planks to give the hull form, and veneer ones to make it look planked. It's not the kind of hull that has scale planking. That type of model is more advanced and requires more skill. The kind you are building can still give a fine model.

 

Also, yes there are manufacturers who make better quality kits. But sometimes we choose the SHIP we want, not the manufacturer. We may have to tolerate a lower quality kit in order to get the ship we want (unless we are building from scratch).

 

Keep going. You will do alright.

[clearway]

Hi Richard, if painting the hull i wouldn,t have bothered with the walnut planking and yes Daniels idea regarding the ice bumper is a good one. Regards help and dimensions everything the other keith said (watch out the Keiths are back in town😁).

 

Keith

[richardhd]

Keith & Keith,

 

Thanks for the feedback and offers of help on dimensions. As this build moves into more detailed construction and scratch building I will certainly be asking. While waiting for the kit to be delivered I spent quite a bit of time checking out your build logs and the extensive detail/research is just awesome and nice to have for reference. Thinking that this next stage of the build can become incredibly long depending on how much historical accuracy I want to go for (and I’m aiming high to start!).

 

Of course, as always, I have more questions. I’ve seen a lot of builders find the kit provided bow plating pretty frustrating, as an alternative I was checking out this self adhesive 1:75 copper plating which already has rivets included in the molding.  Any caveats on using this that I should be aware of? (Let me know if linking to sellers is not allowed and I’ll edit the link out)
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/314076499581?chn=ps&var=612739481491&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1eUJzI0pwRYiLRf6hkW0Gsg26&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=612739481491_314076499581&targetid=&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9012147&poi=&campaignid=17597089569&mkgroupid=&rlsatarget=&abcId=9300988&merchantid=507190959&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh_AX-EBfBgUXRIBunVspTKyG&gclid=CjwKCAjwo_KXBhAaEiwA2RZ8hJiAIyKY4msEhs6bT1snGk6s2Nuoju8NYAVokrriaX5bcVXR5fMAhRoCRzMQAvD_BwE

[allanyed]

13 hours ago, Keith S said:

That type of model is more advanced and requires more skill.

Hi Keith,

More skill???  I respectfully disagree.  A little time to study the planking primer here at MSW articles data base and the Chuck Passaro videos on planking make it easier than the method shown on AL, OcCre, et al.   Unfortunately many kit  builders trust that the kit maker got it right which is often not the case.  Why anyone that is about to spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours on a build, does not spend a few days of research of contemporary plans and models that are readily available for free and compares these to the kit before making the purchase baffles me.  

 

Allan

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by allanyed

[richardhd]

2 hours ago, allanyed said:

Why anyone that is about to spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours on a build, does not spend a few days of research of contemporary plans and models that are readily available for free and compares these to the kit before making the purchase baffles me.  

I wouldn’t know anyone who made that mistake 👀

[clearway]

Its horses for courses however chucks planking demonstration tutorials are pretty awesome and helped me with some quandries i have had planking in the past and highly recommend them, i agree with you Allan regards some of the kit producers misleading builders on planking. i cut my teeth on billings kits which instruct you on more accurate planking.

 

As regards the plating richard you could use the self adhesive copper strip i used and use a blunt point to create the nail heads it will be cheaper (research copper dolls house tape and think ianb said garden centres use it for slug repulsion)!

 

Keith

[allanyed]

3 hours ago, clearway said:

As regards the plating richard you could use the self adhesive copper strip i used and use a blunt point to create the nail heads it will be cheaper

This is a great idea except depending on your scale, you may need a less blunt point.  The plating from most, NOT ALL, kit makers supply plating that is the wrong size (48"X15" if full size), is not meant to properly over lap like shingles, and has huge bumps that are the equivalent of 3" or 4" rivet head instead of tiny indentations from 1/4" nails that would have 1/2" heads.  The pin pricking is the closest way to get there other than laser or etching.   The sketch below may help.  If your scale is 1:64 or smaller, you will have a hard time making any kind of fastener marks to scale, so may be better leaving the copper plates plain.

 

Allan

 

Allan

Edited August 17, 2022 by allanyed

[Keith S]

5 hours ago, allanyed said:

Hi Keith,

More skill???  I respectfully disagree.  A little time to study the planking primer here at MSW articles data base and the Chuck Passaro videos on planking make it easier than the method shown on AL, OcCre, et al.   Unfortunately many kit  builders trust that the kit maker got it right which is often not the case.  Why anyone that is about to spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours on a build, does not spend a few days of research of contemporary plans and models that are readily available for free and compares these to the kit before making the purchase baffles me.  

 

Allan

 

Well Allan, I respect your opinion, but you must realize that some people want a specific ship, and buy the only kit available. And don't know enough about ship kits to question the way it's designed.  And then, like I did, do the research necessary to bring the kit up to standard. If you look at the versions of this kit built by Clearway, Daniel and myself, you'll see we did "put in the work" as you point out. But I maintain that it takes more skill to do so than it does just to follow the plans. 

[Cathead]

1 hour ago, Keith S said:

some people want a specific ship, and buy the only kit available...do the research necessary to bring the kit up to standard...I maintain that it takes more skill to do so than it does just to follow the plans. 

I totally agree, that's why I mentioned above that one factor in kit selection is companies that make popular prototypes. And upgrading kits can be quite a rewarding experience, check out my Viking longship and US revenue cutter, both of which started with frustrating kits and (I think) came out quite nicely with some serious research and upgrades. But it's still worth knowing what you're getting into ahead of time, which is where pre-researching kit companies is worthwhile. Open eyes compensate for many problems. I went into my Corel revenue cutter eyes closed and much of the frustration was the sense of betrayal at how bad the kit was. 

[richardhd]

Hi all,

 

All of the discussion surrounding planking and plating is much appreciated. Happy to report second layer of planking is now finished! She’s sanded and ready for ice chocks and painting.

 

I know I did a rough job of it but I think my attempt to get the base kit closer to Matthew Betts’ model was modestly successful and I managed to avoid destroying her in the process (so far!). Close up shot below for comparison.

 

Also tested out adding rivets by hand to the kit supplied plating. This looks a little out of scale but I’m thinking if I can do it in straight lines and I’m patient this may be a viable option.

[clearway]

Hi Richard ahhh the early stages before Keith s and myself started with the brainaches😁, as we are talking iron sheathing as opposed to copper plating on the bows you will get away with just adding nails to the outer edge.

 

Keith

[richardhd]

Keith,

 

Noted, thanks! I feel brain aches are on the way once I start moving into the little details!

[clearway]

should be intersting but it should be o.k. as the other keith and i have hammered out a lot of details  and of course the awesome work Matthew Betts put in to his research which along with Keith s log kick started my build (i still hold you personally to blame Keith S)😁. If you havnt already obtained his book i would obtain a copy.

 

Keith

[clearway]

Hi Richard , hows it going with the plating? I was thinking regards the hull colour you could go with Keith S idea and use ebony stain for the black which when varnished will give a nice finish?

 

Keith

[richardhd]

Hi Keith!

 

Have not quite yet started on the plating, realized it would make more sense to complete the ice chocks (channels? Working on my maritime vocabulary as a second goal here) first as the top edge of the plating bumps up against it. Any suggestions for the most effective way to trace the outline of the plating onto the hull? Seems challenging to freehand straight lines on a curved surface.

 

In the meantime I’ve planked and painted the inside of the bulwarks and I’ve installed the keel, she’s starting to look like the Terror 😁.

Huge thanks to all the Keiths and Daniel for the ongoing discussions on your respective logs. I’ve been following closely, and my build would be straight from the kit if it weren’t for you all. The depth of research on the azimuth compass alone is impressive. If I can glean this much just from the logs, I feel my finger hovering over the “purchase” button for Dr. Betts’ book.

 

Regarding color, I have both ebony stain and black paint. It’s not really a planking job worth highlighting, so I would not consider it a loss to paint over it. I’m thinking I will try the stain first, then if I’m unhappy with the appearance I can just cover it with paint.

 

Appreciate you checking in, the build continues!

[clearway]

as a guide for the plating i used the kit supplied veneer and ran it diagonally downwards towards the bows (there is a pic somewhere early in the logs) which as you needed to shape them to fit the bows it gave a guide for trimming the plates but start at the top and you will get a feel of the run

 

Keith

[richardhd]

Hi All,
 

Ice chocks strategy seems to be working, they have been successfully built up and removed. Additionally I’ve started on the bow plating. It certainly is tedious work, but I believe it will be well worth it. Rivets are slightly out of scale, but I’m satisfied with the look so far.

[clearway]

looks o.k. to me😁

 

Keith

[richardhd]

Hi all, 

 

It’s been just shy of two months and I finally got around to making more progress on the bow plating. Nearly done, just have some of the keel to finish. Not dissatisfied with the appearance.

 

Have some finishing touches left on the hull, then hoping to get her all painted up before the holidays!

[clearway]

welcome back fellow terrorite- nice work on the plating.

 

Keith

[richardhd]

Hi all!

 

Bow plating is finally done! I know my updates were few and far between but I was doing at least a little plating most nights over the last 2 months, it was just such a tedious job. Anyway I tonight I popped the ice chocks back on just for a few glamor shots.

 

 

Also in the time I spent doing the plating I needed a side project to help keep my sanity, so I planked the kit-provided stand and added some felt to it. Saw a fellow Terrorite do the same and thought it was a great idea.

 

[Rking]

That's a great effect you've managed to achieve with the plating 👍 wish I'd taken a bit more time over mine now, but you're right it was certainly the most tedious aspect of the build so far!

[richardhd]

Rking, thank you! It wasn’t without its headaches since punching the rivet shapes into each plate cause the metal to warp and I needed to flatten each back out without also flattening the rivets! But I figured if I was spending so much time dry fitting, trimming, and dry fitting again for every plate then the extra investment in the rivets would not be much more tedious by comparison. Just looked over your build, it’s looking great! 

[allanyed]

Richard, I can see how forming the plates had to be difficult.  You did a great job!     I do wonder how rivets would hold in wood.  Wouldn't they quickly work loose?  For appearance it probably does not matter if the plates were bolted through the planking and wooden hawse pieces to the 10" steel reinforcing pieces that existed inboard.  Or, maybe these sheets were nailed just like was done for copper sheathing thus would have indented marks rather than bumps.    Just curious to know if anyone has found any information on this from articles on the wreck or contemporary information from when she was built.

Thanks for sharing your build

Allan

[richardhd]

Allan, thank you and I’d like to know as well! You make a good point, and now I’m thinking there’s a decent chance these are not historically accurate, but I do like the look of the rivets still.

[clearway]

we need to send Keith s down to the wrecks as he is closest- all our questions are lying there on the sea bed!

 

Keith

[richardhd]

Allan, follow up response to your previous comment: do we know what kind of iron was used in the bow plating and stern reinforcements? Do we know how pure the iron used in the UK in the early 19th century was?