„Święty Jerzy” („Sankt Georg”) 1627 – reconstructing an opponent of „Vasa”

[Waldemar]

 

Basic structure of the beakhead.

 

 

 

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

Wonderful work! You sure are making progress quickly. Was this a well documented ship with much material available?

[Waldemar]

 

Thank you very much Scrubby.

 

Well, yes and no. Only scanty data on the actual ship survives (but happily more on other ships of the fleet). There is, however, abundant material when it comes to background information. Archaeological, iconographic and written sources were used for this reconstruction: Venetian, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch, English, Danish and Swedish. All of these proved useful.

 

As a result, the ship can be considered a more or less typical man-of-war of the Baltic area.

 

[scrubbyj427]

6 hours ago, Waldemar said:

 

Thank you very much Scrubby.

 

Well, yes and no. Only scanty data on the actual ship survives (but happily more on other ships of the fleet). There is, however, abundant material when it comes to background information. Archaeological, iconographic and written sources were used for this reconstruction: Venetian, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Dutch, English, Danish and Swedish. All of these proved useful.

 

As a result, the ship can be considered a more or less typical man-of-war of the Baltic area.

 

Is there a wreck that has been discovered? I am also dying to know if she was plastered with carvings like Vasa? This is proving to be an interesting subject, no doubt.

[Waldemar]

 

In those days, only a few ships could match the 'Vasa' in terms of the number of carvings, such as the Danish 'Tre Kroner', the English 'Prince' and 'Sovereign of the Seas' or the French 'La Couronne'. These were all exceptional ships built for show. All the rest, the workhorses of the fleet, were much more modest in this respect. And this ship is such a workhorse for day-to-day duties.

 

There are quite a few shipwrecks relevant to this project. Many of them are well known, except perhaps the Swedish 'Solen', a ship that was sunk in the same battle in which the 'Saint George' participated. Lots of extremely useful material from this site. We still hope to find the remains of the "Saint George" in the river.

 

[Waldemar]

 

Almost done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

With the exception of the lion and perhaps a few other fellows, the beakhead can be considered finished.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Waldemar

[druxey]

Again, beautifully rendered, Waldemar.

[Waldemar]

 

More details have been added: catheads with its supports, gun port lids, chesstree, window and cargo port aft, channels.

 

 

 

 

First-person view of roughly maximum effective range of artillery fire:

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Waldemar

[Waldemar]

 

Many thanks guys for the likes and comments...

 

 

In the quest for speed and weatherliness, the ship was designed with extremely narrow proportions for a warship. The length-to-width ratio is as high as 4,62:1. If highly built with extensive upperworks or multiple decks, she could have capsized, as happened to the 'Vasa' for precisely this reason. Fortunately, the king did not interfere with the ship's design in this case.

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

Finished, hopefully, external details of the hull not related to rigging: scuppers and less important but conspicuous details – gun port wreaths, balcony ribs, etc.

 

More and more I think of it as a ship of a new just emerging class –  the frigate.

 

 

 

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

Just awesome! Are you going to start building a prototype from wood? Would love to see this develop further.

[Waldemar]

 

 

Thank you Scrubby. Yes, once the formalities are settled, which should be soon, the first model will be built in wood. But first the general concept of the ship's reconstruction, so different in some important aspects from the existing ones, has to be accepted by the investor (museum).

 

In any case, I will try to show further progress as far as possible, be it a 3D or a wooden model.

 

 

[shadowcaster]

Impressive work, can't wait to see it made of wood.🧐

[Waldemar]

 

 

Thanks a lot. These are my hopes too. The hopes are also for a structural model, say, close to the Navy Board style. That's why I make sure that the layout of the internal parts, their shapes and scantlings are as historically correct as possible.

 

 

[Kopape]

Waldemar, absolutely amazing work !!!
When I was searching for a more authentic depiction of a Dutch frigate, I came across one thing - some designs were missing the fore deck ( like the Vasa ). But it was not the basis on which I could historically rely.
So I ask - is the missing deck according to the Vasa, or did you draw from somewhere else?

 

                                                                                                             Petr

[Waldemar]

 

Many thanks Petr for the compliments and your very rational question as well.

 

While it is true that many, or even most ships of the time are depicted as having a fore deck, there are still many examples of warships without one. I have selected for you a number of samples:

 

– contracts for the building (1613) and rebuilding (1630) of the Danish warship 'Fides' (builder: Dutchman Peter Michelsen), in which all decks are listed, but the fore deck is not mentioned;

– contract and draught of the Danish warship „Hummeren” (designer and builder: Scotsman David Balfour), built 1623–1625 (the run of the decks highlighted with red lines by me);

Hummeren 1625

– portrait of a Dutch ship of about 1620 by Cornelis Verbeeck, which may be interpreted as having no forecastle;

Dutch ship of about 1620

– case of the Dutch-built VOC ship „Prins Willem” built 1649–1650, with her fore deck removed upon pressing for naval service (it seems quite typical procedure in such circumstances);

– depiction of a Dutch warship by Experiens Sillemans (1611–1653);

Dutch warship of about the middle of the 17th cent.

– 17th cent. model of the Swedish warship „Amarant” built 1653;

Amarant 1653

– a number of van de Velde drawings of Dutch frigates of about the middle of the 17th cent.

Wulpenburg 1659

 

Harderwijk 1659

 

unidentified frigate of the Amsterdam Admiralty 1665

 

 

So, given a choice - with or without a fore deck, first of all I had taken into account the extremely narrow hull of the reconstructed ship.

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Waldemar

[druxey]

With that hull form, this makes perfect sense to keep weight down - even if there is a high stern!.

[scrubbyj427]

Is there a Dutch or similar equivalent to the NMM that offers plans like this? This is my next direction after my current projects.

[Waldemar]

 

Sure there already are rich archives of ships' draughts of very good quality put on-line. Let's try:

Dutch:
https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/en/research/archive/4.MST

 

Danish:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/en/billedviser?epid=17149179#207924,39521405

 

 

 

[Kopape]

Waldemar, thank you very much for the images.
But it does make me ask a question - one that I don't think anyone can answer exactly.
When was the deck there and when was it not? Or when was it removed?
Is it the builder's fault? Was it a fad ? Or was it forced by circumstances ?

                                                                                                                           Petr

 

[Waldemar]

 

 

Simplifying somewhat, the forecastle was an asset on merchant ships, but could be a nuisance on men-of-war in wartime, especially during battle. Its bulkhead took up available space (for artillery) and blocked the free movement of the crew. Due to the heavy loads (guns) above the waterline, as opposed to the merchant cargo held below in the hold, it was also desired to lower the gravity centre of of the whole as much as possible by removing it, if a merchant ship was pressed into the naval service. It had some advantages though. It made the ship drier in rough seas and was useful while defending the ship against entering party.

 

 

[Kopape]

Thank you very much for the explanation.
Just one more question - if I was making a model of a war frigate ( For example: Berlin 1674, Papegojan 1627 )
I guess it wouldn't be wrong if it had no foredeck ?

[Waldemar]

 

 

These two ships you mention are from two different worlds. Again, simplifying somewhat, but to start somewhere: almost exactly in the middle of the 17th century there was a radical change in tactical doctrine, with shifting from boarding and small arms distance fight to gunnery duels (the First Anglo-Dutch War), and this affected not only the ships' design, but also the crew proportions, with sailors and gunners gradually taking over the infantry numbers on board. 

 

While building „Papegojan” of 1627 make sure there is enough room on board to live and fight for a squad of 60 infantrymen, besides 48 sailors. And this is a very small ship of only about 270 tons and the length of 86 feet. In my reconstruction she would have overloop (principal deck) serving both as a platform for the main battery and living quarters for the crew, and unbroken upper/weather deck for handling the ship and fighting infantry (very light, mostly gratings; it is called bovenet in the ship's inventory). In other words, the large body of infantry must have a place to fight, otherwise it would be useless. And no forecastle, to not make the ship unnecessarily top-heavy and leewardly. In the 1627 campaign the "Papegojan" served as supply ship and according to the ordnance inventory carried only four light guns (bronze 3-pdrs) instead of the usual a dozen or so.

 

The frigates of the second half of the century are somewhat different proposition, but I do not know the frigate "Berlin" to make any reasonable comments.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Waldemar

[Kopape]

So thank you very much for such comprehensive answers and knowledge.
And I wish you a successful completion.😉
                                                                          Peter

 

[Waldemar]

Many thanks Peter for your kind words. 

 

 

 

I took a break from drawing for a while. So no new elements, just playing with the Navy Board style for this model. Perhaps you will like it too. On the 3D model everything is tidy, but in reality the look of the framing would be closer to a mess.

 

Note the removable part of the waistcloth frame close to the main hatch in the waist, making it easier to board the vessel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

One more...

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

The not-so-obviously shaped rudder with its iron fittings.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Waldemar

[Waldemar]

 

 

Due to the only one possible place for the fish-davit and its aperture, the fore gun ports had to be rearranged. Many other rigging-related fixtures, although inconspicuous in the images, were also made: kevels, pinrails, fixed blocks.

 

In this type of reconstruction, at least 90% of the drawing time is consumed by various changes, corrections and fine-tuning.

 

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

Main capstan, pumps, popular at the time „Turks' heads” and some other outside ornaments (not shown here). In some places it gets really crowded.