„Święty Jerzy” („Sankt Georg”) 1627 – reconstructing an opponent of „Vasa”

[Metaspace]

Thank you for the detailed and fascinating insight, and the additional renders!

[Waldemar]

 

Blocks. Meaning ship blocks. Not to a uniform scale.

 

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

Standing and semi-standing rigging. In its entirety.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Montaigne]

Outstanding work, it’s a treat to follow this build. Hats off!

[Waldemar]

 

@Montaigne

 

Thank you, Montaigne, especially as these words come from Sweden, where so much valuable source material comes from (especially Vasa 1628, but also much, much more). I must admit that the mental experience of this project is both wonderful (the effect achieved) and terrible (the effort required). I'm probably doing it more for my own satisfaction, as this model/reconstruction goes far beyond the contract and needs of the investor (museum), intending and already building just POB model according to this project. Huge 1:15 scale beast, in large extent inspired by the outstanding Vasa 1:10 scale model in Stockholm.

 

 

[Metaspace]

The Vasa model is amazing.

But I can see how this one will even go beyond!

I'm amazed by the allowed of your progress!

[Waldemar]

 

Thank you, Roman. Well, the Vasa 1628 model in the Vasa Museum, for the obvious reason, has one particular feature that can never be matched – authenticity. Apart from most of the rigging, only relatively few details had to be reconstructed there. This is of significantly different proportions to other more or less historical recreations and nothing will change that.

 

Besides, the execution style of the Vasa model made there in Stockholm particularly appeals to my taste, so I try to urge modellers here to build the Sankt Georg 1627 in this both captivating and realistic styling. I think even with some success.

 

 

[Montaigne]

13 hours ago, Waldemar said:

Thank you, Montaigne, especially as these words come from Sweden, where so much valuable source material comes from (especially Vasa 1628, but also much, much more). I must admit that the mental experience of this project is both wonderful (the effect achieved) and terrible (the effort required). I'm probably doing it more for my own satisfaction, as this model/reconstruction goes far beyond the contract and needs of the investor (museum), intending and already building just POB model according to this project. Huge 1:15 scale beast, in large extent inspired by the outstanding Vasa 1:10 scale model in Stockholm.

 

Cheers, I've actually not yet been to the Vasa museum, but plan to go there this summer, finally. I didn't even know they have a 1:10 scale model of it there, looking forward to seeing it!

 

I can imagine the effort required for this massive project to be a struggle at times. I used to work as a designer and Rhino was one of my daily used tools for creating prototypes, so I’m familiar with how challenging certain designs can be with Rhino. Following your build is fascinating also from that perspective, like: “I wonder how he did that one, did he use a network surface or maybe a SubD then converting to nurbs?” and so forth. I’m also familiar with the rabbit hole of 3D design, where there really is no end to how deep you can go to achieve levels of accuracy. But your build here is a masterpiece in both Rhino and model ship design, and I can imagine once it's done will feel like a great achievement. Thankfully we tend to forget all the steep climbs on the way once we reach the top of the mountain.

[Waldemar]

 

Montaigne, your conclusion in the last sentence is particularly pertinent and I like it very much.

 

Regarding the specific ways used in Rhino to design a particular details, you can of course ask and so far I always managed to answer. Apart from a few organic decorative objects, all elements of the model are created with NURBS graphics. This is not only because I haven't yet had time to learn how to use SubD effectively, but mainly because this way I have tight control over dimensions and tolerances, right down to the last digit after the decimal point (in my case the document tolerance is 0.001 feet). This ensures that all the pieces fit together within this tolerance, that is so desperately needed, for example, in Boolean operations, one could say – one of the main pillars of this project.

 

Admittedly, I've been short of time lately because the deadline is looming, but if needed I will certainly try to clarify at least any issues that can be explained relatively quickly.

 

Taking this opportunity, below are some more renders for this stage of the project (30-Year's War figurine showing the scale by Captain_Ahab_62, Thingiverse).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Montaigne]

7 hours ago, Waldemar said:

Regarding the specific ways used in Rhino to design a particular details, you can of course ask and so far I always managed to answer. Apart from a few organic decorative objects, all elements of the model are created with NURBS graphics. This is not only because I haven't yet had time to learn how to use SubD effectively, but mainly because this way I have tight control over dimensions and tolerances, right down to the last digit after the decimal point (in my case the document tolerance is 0.001 feet). This ensures that all the pieces fit together within this tolerance, that is so desperately needed, for example, in Boolean operations, one could say – one of the main pillars of this project.

 

Admittedly, I've been short of time lately because the deadline is looming, but if needed I will certainly try to clarify at least any issues that can be explained relatively quickly.

Thanks for clarifying the methods used. I can imagine this project to be built on Booleans, and Rhino’s strengths in that regard being of great benefit. 

 

Yeah, SubDs are great for achieving organic shapes and anything that is just too challenging with nurbs, but definitely not suitable for anything that requires control over measurements and tolerances. Even when converting a nurbs surface or polysurface to SubD the approximations instantly become a problem. 

 

The one thing that got me curious is how you made the really nice hooks for the blocks (those in the renders of all the blocks); if they’re two objects joined; hook and block holder, or some other solution? But you don’t have to put time into explaining, just the basic method and I can figure it out. 

[Waldemar]

 

@Montaigne

 

Went the easy way and simply PM sent you a Rhino 7 file with this block. The hook itself (its larger end with an elliptical cross-section) was connected to the iron strop of the block (with a rectangular cross-section) with the "Blend Surface" command (very useful in such situations). Basically a trivial thing in a technical sense, but there was a bit of trying on getting the right shape. Anyway, as you surely know, you can play with the shapes as you wish, provided, of course, it is about regular geometry, as opposed to broken, bent, heavily corroded or otherwise geometrically damaged items.

 

 

And also a photograph of one of the original specimens (you will never guess from which ship 🙂). From the excellent and so much useful work by Nathaniel Howe, The Rigging and Gun Tackle Blocks of the Swedish Royal Warship Vasa, 2011.

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Waldemar

[Montaigne]

4 hours ago, Waldemar said:

Went the easy way and simply PM sent you a Rhino 7 file with this block. The hook itself (its larger end with an elliptical cross-section) was connected to the iron strop of the block (with a rectangular cross-section) with the "Blend Surface" command (very useful in such situations). Basically a trivial thing in a technical sense, but there was a bit of trying on getting the right shape. Anyway, as you surely know, you can play with the shapes as you wish, provided, of course, it is about regular geometry, as opposed to broken, bent, heavily corroded or otherwise geometrically damaged items.

 

Thanks for the file and the methods, very much appreciated! I actually haven't used Blend Surface much, but realize I should, because this looks very tidy and straightforward.
Yeah, Rhino can be like that, for me at least: sometimes a lot of head scratching to get the shapes exactly right. There's a lot of depth to all the commands and their combinations.

 

It's fascinating: some guy or several built that old corroded block in the early 1600's, and here we are discussing how to design it with technology that to them would have appeared as nothing but magic.

 

[Waldemar]

 

30 minutes ago, Montaigne said:

It's fascinating: some guy or several built that old corroded block in the early 1600's, and here we are discussing how to design it with technology that to them would have appeared as nothing but magic.

 

Right. There are times when I'd happily swap with a blacksmith or carpenter, just to avoid 3D modelling some nasty element, which is at the same time so easy to shape in a traditional, physical way. 

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Montaigne said:

Yeah, Rhino can be like that, for me at least: sometimes a lot of head scratching to get the shapes exactly right.

 

I can say that this is also my daily experience. It's common to try first different, including unnecessarily over-complicated ideas to do a task, but after many attempts and hours of trying, it is usually possible to find the simplest ones that give just those great, desirable results.

 

 

[Montaigne]

28 minutes ago, Waldemar said:

It's common to try first different, including unnecessarily over-complicated ideas to do a task, but after many attempts and hours of trying, it is usually possible to find the simplest ones that give just those great, desirable results.

A very good description of the creative process in Rhino. It can be a headache trying all approaches, but once that sweet simple solution - that was there all along - is found, it’s a treat. 
 

 

28 minutes ago, Waldemar said:

There are times when I'd happily swap with a blacksmith or carpenter, just to avoid 3D modelling some nasty element, which is at the same time so easy to shape in a traditional, physical way. 

Oh, definitely. I’m working on a Cutty Sark figurehead/bow project now in Blender, partly to learn Blender, but mostly to later use it as a study and drawing for carving it by hand in boxwood. I cannot wait to shut down my computer!

(Not that carving a figurehead by hand is in any way easy, or easier than 3D modeling, but it’s a hands on direct approach to shaping). 

[Waldemar]

 

Halyards, ties, parrels, slings...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

All the lifts including the combined lifts-sheets done. Only one side shown.

 

 

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

All braces completed. Only one side shown.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

Excellent work. The rigging is simply amazing, this is not easy on Rhino! Where are you obtaining rigging drawings/details? Or is this pretty common for the time and ship?

[Waldemar]

 

Yes, this is true. At first I was even going to not draw the rigging in 3D at all to save time, and instead make 2D sketches. But now, after gaining some practice and discovering some particularly useful tricks in Rhino, it goes very efficiently indeed. Even positioning the blocks in space at the correct angles is no longer a problem, but a pleasure. I love Rhino 🙂.

 

The rigging configuration has been a variable over time and I do my best to guard against anachronisms. I have already mentioned some of the more important sources for this project in post #169, but in reality there are still more to be used. On the other hand, the rigging for one period was not uniform/standard either, so I have some leeway in choosing specifics.

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

I’m very interested in learning more about positioning things in space at multiple angles, I know when I do it, it requires multiple planes of view with several superset rotations or 3D rotate if you have a good reference.

[Waldemar]

 

At first I also tried to use 2D and 3D rotations, but this was a mistake. Time consuming and very inaccurate. I found a method that is relatively quick, straightforward and very precise at the same time. I will explain everything, but together with diagrams and a clear explanation, the preparation would take me at least one whole day, and I cannot afford it now. Please give me some time. Rather, weeks.

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

3 minutes ago, Waldemar said:

 

At first I also tried to use 2D and 3D rotations, but this was a mistake. Time consuming and very inaccurate. I found a method that is relatively quick, straightforward and very precise at the same time. I will explain everything, but together with diagrams and a clear explanation, the preparation would take me at least one whole day, and I cannot afford it now. Please give me some time. Rather, weeks.

 

 

Thank you Waldemar, there is no urgency here, I’m just very curious to whatever trick you have discovered.

[Waldemar]

 

Thank you and please be patient. Now just a quick demonstration of the effects. On the two-dimensional renders it may not be so visible, but all the blocks have the correct position and orientation in relation to the run of the ropes.

 

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

54 minutes ago, Waldemar said:

 

Thank you and please be patient. Now just a quick demonstration of the effects. On the two-dimensional renders it may not be so visible, but all the blocks have the correct position and orientation in relation to the run of the ropes.

 

 

 

Yes this is very clear and in my mind and they way I would approach, I know this is quite the challenge. Making lines and getting them angled right on the first try is also not easy. This looks very good.

[Waldemar]

 

All sheets and tacks (only one side shown). While my home laptop is probably no more powerful than NASA's hardware, it can still handle a file of about 600 MB.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Metaspace]

Congratulations! What a great sight. I can't get enough of these images!

If I ever build another model, I'll definitely plan it in Rhino as well 🙂

 

And I am also excited to see this ship come into being, and for the woodwork to start.

 

Do you already have plans which wood to use?

 

 

[Waldemar]

 

Thank you very much Roman. Not to discourage you, but it's quite a tough experience and you also have to fight the inevitable mental crises. But if you are consistent, I urge you to go ahead with such an endeavour. You will have immense satisfaction...

 

The woodworking has already taken off (no admiral permission to show photos 🙂). I insisted on using 100% pear wood for the prototype model (scale 1:15), but the museum modellers opted for alder instead. I'm happy with the result anyway, because it looks almost as good, well, and I managed to successfully persuade them to not use oak wood at all.

 

My model, if any, would be definitely out of pear and some ebony, and nothing else. Roughly aiming at the dominant style of modern Belgian and French modellers.

 

 

[Martes]

Black and white contour renders are especially beautiful

[Waldemar]

 

Thanks Martes, however, that's down to the software developers rather than me. I just select the shots. The rigging from greater distances is quite ungrateful to render clearly and I'm trying various possibilities, as below, with clew lines added in the meantime. If you have any suggestions in this regard, please put them forward, of course.

 

I would only add that this rather archaic appearance of the rigging as a whole is as much as possible intentional. Again, only one side shown.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Martes]

The ropes are thin and likely look something like that from a distance, but in this post:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/31638-„święty-jerzy”-„sankt-georg”-1627-–-reconstructing-an-opponent-of-„vasa”/?do=findComment&comment=975528

 

they looked more or less all right. I suppose you have to have some kind of world background for the ropes to show normally, since the very last pictures displays the ropes that are shown against the sails and those that are not differently: