Constitution's Guns?

[Patrick Matthews]

Can anyone point me towards accepted info on Constitution's 24 pounders?

 

I've read that the 1906 and 1930 restorations both resulted in the "wrong" guns being recreated for her, and the most (all?) of the current 24 pounders are from the 1930 restoration. 

But do we know what the "right" guns may have been? 

 

I'm hoping to find dimensional info to help in constructing a larger scale gun model. I searched here, but the number of hits are overwhelming while not shining light on this question...

[Roger Pellett]

You might look into buying a copy of Arming The Fleet by Spencer Tucker, a detailed study of US Navy armaments from colonial times through the Civil War.

 

Roger

[Lieste]

An 1833 'snapshot' of her armament (covering the armament as of 1821 for her Mediterranean service)
https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/11/12/constitutions-guns-a-snapshot/

Her original (1797) guns were an 8ft or 8ft 6" type**, unsuited to her heavier than normal scantlings, and were replaced after the Barbary war, with guns of 9ft 6", which were kinder to the crews and the port cills. **I have this recorded somewhere, but can only recall the general issue off the top of my head, if it is important I can re-check for this figure, if it isn't supplied by someone who has the research more readily to hand.

Her original spardeck guns were 18pdr and 12 pdr guns, in a mixed 'castles and waist' fit, though I have no information about length or weight. Later these were swapped for 32pdr carronades, originally a complete battery, later reduced to clear working space around the boats in the waist, and during the war of 1812 supplemented by a captured pair of 24pdr Gover pattern guns to replace a pair fore and aft of the 32pdr carronades on a shifting arrangement for her chase guns.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Lieste

[popeye2sea]

There is really no such thing as the "right" guns for Constitution. They were changed out fairly frequently over her career.

The ships guns were not considered to be permanent property of the ship, so to speak. They were loaded aboard for the duration of a cruise and were often off loaded when the ship came back from the cruise when the ship would undergo maintenance.  The cannons would then be employed wherever the Navy needed them ashore or on other vessels.

 

When the ship first made ready for sea, 22 July 1798, she had an armament of thirty, iron, 24-pounders from Furnace Hope, in Pennsylvania, sixteen 18-pounders borrowed from Fort Independence on Castle Island, and fourteen 12-pounders of unknown origin  (probably Furnace Hope). Constitution must have had a few brass 24's at some point because a letter from the Secretary of the Navy in 1807 ordered the transfer of two brass 24-pounders to USS Wasp.

 

32-pounder carronades first replaced long guns on the spar deck after the Tripoli campaign in 1804 where they were mounted in the waist. Four of the carronades were transferred to USS Hornet in 1807 and the remaining four were mounted in pairs on the quarter deck and forecastle.  The 1812 spar deck battery of carronades consisted of sixteen 32-pounders on the quarterdeck and six 32-pounders on the forecastle.

 

Constitution's armament changed many times until 1900 when she had none at all.  In 1834 she had twenty two 24 pounder long guns, twenty 32-pounder carronades and two Congreve 24 pounders. In 1842 the ship received four 68-pounder Paixhans guns mounted in pairs in midship ports on the gun deck, replacing four 24-pounders.  In 1847 she mounted twenty six 36-pounder long guns and four 8-inch Paixhans guns on the gun deck and twenty 32 pounder long guns on the spar deck. For the 1907 restoration she had 24 pounder long guns throughout. Because of limited funding and no precise research the design of these guns was based on data found in an eighteeth century book on ordinance, Theodore Roosevelt's The Naval War of 1812, and Louis de Toussard's American Artillerists Companion. In 1927 the spar deck long guns were again replaced with carronades. This restoration also saw the entire battery of guns re-cast for the ship. While far better representations than the 1907 castings they were still not completely accurate to the War of 1812.  These are the current weapons on board and they all carry the King George III monogram.  Since then, Navy Department files have been discovered which contain a drawing detailing the actual guns the ship carried early on.

 

Regards,

 

 

[Patrick Matthews]

3 hours ago, Lieste said:

An 1833 'snapshot' of her armament (covering the armament as of 1821 for her Mediterranean service)
https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/11/12/constitutions-guns-a-snapshot/
...

Brenckle's post in 2015 suggests that:

- The drawing of the "old" long gun barrel may well represent Constitution's 24 pdrs of 1812;

- We have no idea if any of these exist today ("It is hoped that some of this information will help us identify some existing guns that might conform to types carried on Constitution during the War of 1812 and the following decades. If you know of any early 32-pounder carronades or 24-pounder long guns that match these measurements, we’d love to hear from you!")

 

Desy & Monea (2015, https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/08/25/modern-armament/) also say that the reproduction guns present today are not correct, but without mentioning what IS correct.

 

And no one seems to have specific carriage drawings, other than the several generic carriages of the period, such as depicted on p.2 of the pamphlet: https://www.navyhistory.org/the-constitution-gun-deck/

 

Will be interesting to see if Tucker sheds any light on all this.

 

For a model of Constitution's 1812 24 pounder, I guess I'd go with the "old" barrel drawing and that generic carriage drawing.

Oh, and use the words "might be" in any description of said model!

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Patrick Matthews

[John Ruy]

Anatomy of the ship by Karl Heinz Marquardt. 

Everything you need to know about the USS Constitution…

 

 

[Patrick Matthews]

Thx, I think. 

p.83:  "1. 24-pdr English long gun"

 

It's already been established that contrary to an earlier opinion, she DIDN'T (for the most part) carry English guns. 

Probably doesn't matter much, they all looked about the same! 

Except for the mistaken English markings cast on the 1930 repro guns...

[John Ruy]

Not sure, this just might muddy the waters for you. I recently was aboard in Boston Harbor.
 

Took these photos of the cannons in her current restored condition as a preserved national treasure. 

This one on Display at the entrance. 

She is beautiful and still stands tall and proud today. 😎 
 

 

[Patrick Matthews]

Gorgeous! Yes, those are her "wrong" 1930s repro guns.

[John Ruy]

Just now, Patrick Matthews said:

Gorgeous! Yes, those are her "wrong" 1930s repro guns.

I thought they might be… Good luck with your research 🧐 I know how conflicting these things can be. 

[Lieste]

Having re-looked at the table of dimension  and the diagrams it appears the US may have defined their dimensions differently from the English practice, with the 1812/1816/1820/1833 guns being nearly uniformly 9ft - if you count from the breech ring to the muzzle - the 9ft 8 to 9ft 9 length quoted seems to include the breech moulding and cascable. If this is also the case for the original 1797 pattern guns then their quoted 8ft 6 (the supply from the Hope Ironworks) is likely to be closer to a 7ft 9 to 7ft 10 British pattern/definition... which is very short for a ship built very like a ship of the line (port sills similar to the common 74), and makes sense of the complaint that oblique fire damaged the ports and concussed the crew. This length of gun is slightly shorter than the frigate pattern of British 18pdr gun (8ft breech ring to muzzle), which are matched to a significantly lighter hull.

[BrianCam]

Some Mistakes== popeye2sea  When the ship first made ready for sea, 22 July 1798, she had an armament of thirty, iron, 24-pounders from Furnace Hope, in Pennsylvania, sixteen 18-pounders borrowed from Fort Independence on Castle Island, and fourteen 12-pounders of unknown origin  (probably Furnace Hope). Constitution must have had a few brass 24's at some point because a letter from the Secretary of the Navy in 1807 ordered the transfer of two brass 24-pounders to USS Wasp.  Mistakes #1 24-pounders from Furnace Hope, in Pennsylvania.  No, from 

1.  The Historic Hope Furnace  https://rhodetour.org/items/show/411#map-section

The Hope Furnace was built by the Brown brothers and Stephen Hopkins. It was built in 1765, running in 1766 and it was sold in 1806.  It was used to make cannons for the Revolutionary War.  The furnace was located on the Pawtuxet River in Hope, Rhode Island and built into a hill.

 

Questions or comments? Contact the USS Constitution Museum's Curatorial Department at curatorial@usscm.org  REFERENCE:  https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/2015/11/12/constitutions-guns-a-snapshot/

1 Jones’ inspection returns were published as part of a larger inquiry into the establishment of a national foundry in 1835 [Report No. 141, House of Representatives, 23rd Congress, 2nd Session, March 3, 1835].     https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field(DOCID+@lit(hj02875))

 

Question:  The Link above does not seem to go to   Jones’ inspection returns were published as part of a larger inquiry into the establishment of a national foundry in 1835 [Report No. 141, House of Representatives, 23rd Congress, 2nd Session, March 3, 1835]

 

I am trying to Identify the below Cannon http://friendsoffortwashington.org/Fort%20Washington%20Artillery.htm

I believe they came from Fort Winthrop OLD Fort Warren.  I believe cannon of this type could have been on the USS Constitution 1798.  The 24 LBS Cannon cast at Mt HOPE RI have examples at Castine & Belfast ME which have Numbers the same style as Fort Washington.  The   Jones’ inspection' may have them listed?  

 

One of Fort Washington's Three 18-pounders, that are in good condition.  Markings are as follows: No 36, 30-0-17; No 40, 30-0-16; No 45, 30-0-13.   At Present,  knowing the TWO 18-pounders at Stonington, CT were Cast in 1781 in Salisbury CT during the Revolution, and since Fort Washington's Three 18-pounders are of same cast, conclude these Cannon were also cast in 1781 in Salisbury CT during the Revolution.  All mounted on iron seacoast top carriages - Forged @ West Point Armory in Cold Spring, New York http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Point_Foundry

[popeye2sea]

What evidence does the above present that refutes what I said about 24-pounders from Furnace Hope in Pennsylvania. Your reference seems to be for a furnace in Rhode Island? There was a Hope furnace in Granville Township, PA in 1797.

The information from the paragraph that I posted comes from A Most Fortunate Ship, by Tyrone Martin and I assume although his footnotes are not keyed to particular paragraphs, that his bibliography entry for a Letter from Furnace Hope to Timothy Pickering, 23 Nov. 1795 is his source.  The same information is found in an article written by the M. Desy. of the Naval History and Heritage Command entitled 

The Armament of USS Constitution, 18th - 20th Century, updated January 2017.

 

Regards,

Henry

Edited January 18, 2023 by popeye2sea

[Lieste]

On 7/13/2022 at 3:44 AM, Patrick Matthews said:

Thx, I think. 

p.83:  "1. 24-pdr English long gun"

 

It's already been established that contrary to an earlier opinion, she DIDN'T (for the most part) carry English guns. 

Probably doesn't matter much, they all looked about the same! 

Except for the mistaken English markings cast on the 1930 repro guns...

According to the 1833 'snapshot' (post #3) of the 1821 guns taken to store, the #71 and #77 gun were G III 24pdrs, and Carronade #1 and #2 were also G III English ordnance.
 

[uss frolick]

Spar deck guns in War of 1812:

 

Under Hull: 24 32-pounder carronades, plus one shifting chase gun, either an 18-pounder thought to have been bored out to a 24-pounder (Contemporary theory by British Historian William James), or possibly a captured British Congreve gun (modern theory by Tyrone Martin). 55 guns total.

 

Under Bainbridge: 22 32-pounder carronades plus two 24-pounders of unknown origin on the forecastle. 54 guns total.

 

Under Stewart: 20 32-pounder carronades, plus two 24-pounder chasers, one each on the quarterdeck and forecastle. 52 guns total.

[Lieste]

Don't suppose you know the length (breech ring to muzzle crown) of the ~30cwt 18pdr examples? I wasn't able to find a stated length and am not close to the displayed pieces.