Bill97 Posted January 9 Author Share #1381 Posted January 9 Could I get by pulling up the fore course similarly? I am actually, as you probably expect, just trying to expose the deck area for viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 9 Author Share #1382 Posted January 9 Ok. Got the course sails down. Will see where I go from here. Bill Morrison, ccoyle and Hubac's Historian 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 9 Share #1383 Posted January 9 (edited) You have it right Bill. The clew lines pull the corners of the sail up aft or under the yard. This is done first. Then the bunt lines and leech lines haul all of the loose slab of sail cloth up towards the front of the yard. When the sails are to be furled the crew lays out on the yard, reaches down in front of the yard, and starts to grab the loose canvas and hauls it up in accordion pleats on the top of the yard. When the final bundle of sail is hauled up to the yard the previous folds are stuffed inside the "skin" of the final fold. The clews of the sail will then be remaining as small triangles of canvas hanging below the sail bundle. Also, the bow lines would be slacked and as their cringles reached the yard they would have been loosed or un-toggled from the sail. Your mainsail looks like a pretty good representation of a sail "hanging in it's gear." The fore sail starboard bunt line may need a little adjusting to make the foot of the sail appear to hang more fair. Regards, Henry P.S. I responded before seeing your last photo. Obviously, the photo I am referring to is the ones with the sail clewed up. Edited January 11 by popeye2sea Bill Morrison and Hubac's Historian 1 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 9 Author Share #1384 Posted January 9 Oh no Henry! You think it was a good representation of a sail “hanging in it’s gear”. Marc thought they would look better set so I took the rigging down and spritzed with water to soften the glue. Now I am working toward a compromise like Ian’s photo. I pulled up the clewlines on the main sail to fold back the clew corner and left the center of the sail full length. I have rerigged it but not exactly sure if I just leave the bowlines hang slack. Still debating the fore course. Right now I have it fully set but not rigged. Bill Morrison and Hubac's Historian 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 9 Share #1385 Posted January 9 That will look good too! It adds some interest to the rig. Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 10 Author Share #1386 Posted January 10 That is my hope Henry. As my discussion went several pages back, this was not my original plan or goal for the ship. I had the idea of doing a partial furl of the fore and main course sail to fully expose the deck area. As Marc observed the weight of the cloth I used for the sails presented a much heavier appearance than I expected. I was iffy on my opinion of the final result. Your comment that it was a good representation was appreciated and maybe I acted too hasty in taking them down. I think this representation serves my purpose of exposing the deck with out the sail appearing to bulky. Still thinking about if I should pull up the fore course as well or have it fully set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 10 Author Share #1387 Posted January 10 Gentlemen with a few adjustments this is what I have settled on. Just partially hauling in the clew lines and buntlines on the fore and main course sail to have the sails hang in the buntlines just a bit above the deck. Hubac's Historian, popeye2sea, Bill Morrison and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 11 Share #1388 Posted January 11 Bill, at the risk of causing you a bit more grief with one last suggestion for those sails. You should knock those reef points down so that they don't look like stray whiskers or eyelashes. I think the sails look great. Regards, Henry Bill Morrison 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 11 Author Share #1389 Posted January 11 Yeah Henry those reef point threads have come close to being the end of me! Unfortunately I used a thread that has some natural stiffness to it causing them to not want to lay flat. On one of the sails I used a cloth adhesive on the tip of each one and placed a metal ruler across all the points on one reef line to hold them down while the glue dried. When I lifted the ruler off the next day I had an ugly rust stain all across the sail 😞. Had to put a stain blocker on the sail and then repaint it. Will come up with a workable solution by the time I complete this build, even if it is the end of me 😊 Hubac's Historian and Bill Morrison 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veszett Roka Posted January 11 Share #1390 Posted January 11 Bill, i think Henry thought these reef lines on the foremast. I believe it is easy to comb them down if you pinch the sail forward a bit, then the sail's curve will push the reef lines down: I draw the three red curves just for illustrate what i thinking. The red arrow points to the backward curve of the sail whic (in my theory) need to push towards the bow to form the red curve lines. Bill Morrison 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 11 Author Share #1391 Posted January 11 Thanks Veszett. I plan to tackle those aggravating little f’ers today 😬. Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 11 Share #1392 Posted January 11 9 hours ago, Veszett Roka said: Bill, i think Henry thought these reef lines on the foremast. I believe it is easy to comb them down if you pinch the sail forward a bit, then the sail's curve will push the reef lines down: I draw the three red curves just for illustrate what i thinking. The red arrow points to the backward curve of the sail whic (in my theory) need to push towards the bow to form the red curve lines. No, Bill got my "point". Pun intended. I was 'reefering' to the line of reef points sticking out from the reef band due to the bulge of the sail cloth. Regards, Henry Bill Morrison and Hubac's Historian 2 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 12 Author Share #1393 Posted January 12 Henry and Veszett I believe I have tamed those aggravating “cat whiskers”. A couple photos to follow as soon as I get them all tamed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 12 Author Share #1394 Posted January 12 After several redo’s of the fore course sail appearance and a battle with reef line “cat whiskers”, the fore mast to include its sails is complete. Will still need to do a bit of line trim and add all the coils at the belay pins at some point. Hubac's Historian, Baker, Ian_Grant and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 12 Author Share #1395 Posted January 12 I do have one rigging question I can’t seem to determine an exact answer too. Reading through Anderson’s book has me scratching my head. What do I do with the lead end of the fore sail tack? If I understand the Heller instructions I am to attach it to the clew on one side of the sail, them pass it through a hole in the knee at the bow, and then back up to the clew on the other side. Or simply tie the lead end to eyebolts in the knee. Do either of these seem correct? Bill Morrison and Hubac's Historian 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 12 Share #1396 Posted January 12 (edited) There are two tack lines. One for each corner of the sail. They both lead forward and cross over to the opposite side through a hole in the stem. Then they lead back up to the beakhead bulkhead where they belay on the rail. Or you can take them to one of the forward pins on the bulwarks. In my rigging plan they are lines 1123. Don't go by the Heller plan. It is wrong Regards, Henry Edited January 12 by popeye2sea Bill Morrison 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 12 Author Share #1397 Posted January 12 (edited) Yes Henry. That is my line number as well. I will see if I understand what you say to do. When you say “they cross over to the opposite side through a hole in a the stem” am I correct to to understand they go forward to a hole in the knee where Heller shows, then they both pass through the same hole to the opposite side and then up to the beakhead?? Edited January 12 by Bill97 Ian_Grant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 12 Author Share #1398 Posted January 12 Also, the bow lines would be slacked and as their cringles reached the yard they would have been loosed or un-toggled from the sail. Also Henry would you care to elaborate a bit more on the bowlines connected to your he course sails that have folded back. Should I just remove them or have them drape loosely toward their belay point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 13 Share #1399 Posted January 13 5 hours ago, Bill97 said: Yes Henry. That is my line number as well. I will see if I understand what you say to do. When you say “they cross over to the opposite side through a hole in a the stem” am I correct to to understand they go forward to a hole in the knee where Heller shows, then they both pass through the same hole to the opposite side and then up to the beakhead?? That is the idea. Although, in my opinion there would be two holes or a separate fairlead with two holes fitted on the front of the knee. But, the one hole will suffice. Regards, Henry Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 13 Share #1400 Posted January 13 2 hours ago, Bill97 said: Also, the bow lines would be slacked and as their cringles reached the yard they would have been loosed or un-toggled from the sail. Also Henry would you care to elaborate a bit more on the bowlines connected to your he course sails that have folded back. Should I just remove them or have them drape loosely toward their belay point? The bowlines are normally toggled or knotted into their cringles (loops turned in on the bolt rope on the sides of the sail). Oddly enough, the knot employed is the bowline knot. When the sail is close hauled (yard set at an extreme angle to the mast) the bowline on the weather side (up-wind) is hauled taut and serves to keep the proper shape to the belly of the sail. The leeward bowline (down-wind) has no function and so remains slack. When the sail is gathered up to be furled, the bowlines are removed. I am not 100% certain if the normal practice was to seize the now removed bowlines and their crowfeet (sp?) to the approximate location on the yard where they would be when the sail is hauled up. It seems to be the practice with modelers to depict them this way when sails are either furled or not fitted. Seizing them on the yard in this manner makes sense due to them being in an accessible position when the sail is set the next time. In your case, with the sails only raised slightly, the bowlines would probably not be removed because the sail is likely to be sheeted home (fully set) again in the near future. The bowlines would simply be slacked. Regards, Henry Ian_Grant 1 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 13 Author Share #1401 Posted January 13 (edited) Thanks Henry. I believe I got this now. Hopefully. I will go with two holes drilled in the knee for the tacks and have the bowlines hang loose. You have been a tremendous help. Edited January 13 by Bill97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 13 Author Share #1402 Posted January 13 (edited) Ok Henry what do you think? I went with the two holes and tied the leads to the bulkhead rail. Second question for you and my other MSW friends. I believe we kicked this around a ways back. The fore and main course sails have reef tackles according to the Heller instructions. I have added them in accordance with the instructions. The previous debate was do the leads come down to on the fore side or aft side of the sail? I think I understand Anderstand to state they are on the aft side. Which was/is my plan. My head scratching comes with the folded up edge. Based on the way the sail folded along with its rigging, the lead falls inside the fold. Which makes me wonder when a sail was furled did the lead get tangled up in the folds? Edited January 13 by Bill97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 14 Share #1403 Posted January 14 I think we mentioned previously that the hauling end of the line leads inboard along underneath the yard. As far as the tackle fall itself is concerned, the reef tackle is only in use to pull the reef band up to the yard for reefing (shortening sail). When the sail is furled the lower block of the reef tackle fall is un-hooked from the reef band cringle and is brought in under the yard and lashed to it. There is sometimes fitted a tricing line on the lower block to help facilitate hauling it up to the yard. Regards, Henry Bill Morrison and Hubac's Historian 2 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 14 Author Share #1404 Posted January 14 Henry yesterday evening when I was sitting in a pew at our weekend church service, and listening to a long homily, my mind began drifting back to my ship. Probably not where my mind should have been 😉. I was thinking about how to solve my reef tackle hauling end issue. Either our previous discussion was in my subconscious or you were sending me telepathic answers. 😀 Your explanation above is exactly what I decided to do. Heller has the hauling end of the tackle go diagonally from the block on the end of the yard down to the deck belay point. I decided I would tie another block to the yard inboard almost to the mast and then run the hauling end along the yard inboard to that block and then down to the belay point. I believe we have opened a new method of communication! Bill Morrison, Hubac's Historian and popeye2sea 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 15 Author Share #1405 Posted January 15 (edited) Unless you guys advise me otherwise (and please do if you recognize something wrong) the rigging of the sails for the fore and mast is complete except for trimming at the belay points and adding rope coils. This includes all the clew lines, buntlines, taut and loose bowlines, reef tackles, sheets, and tacks. I am pleased with how it is coming so far. Edited January 15 by Bill97 Bill Morrison, Ian_Grant and Hubac's Historian 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted January 15 Share #1406 Posted January 15 Looks great, BIll! Your billowing topsails and topgallants are very nice and I like the being-furled courses too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 16 Author Share #1407 Posted January 16 Thank you so much Ian. It definitely has been a joy building it. Are you freezing up where you live? We are in single digits here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_Grant Posted January 16 Share #1408 Posted January 16 No, it hasn't been too bad as yet .... -10C (10F) at night. We actually had a green Christmas 😭after a single mid-December snowstorm granted us three days of glorious Nordic skiing before melting away again 😭. We only just had more snow; I skied 3 hours today (we have 200km of groomed Nordic trails in wooded hills a half-hour drive away). More cold in the forecast so we're hoping to skate on the canal if the ice thickens up. Last year was the first time in 53 years that the canal ice was never safe for skating. Hubac's Historian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill97 Posted January 16 Author Share #1409 Posted January 16 Looks like a lot of fun Ian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeye2sea Posted January 16 Share #1410 Posted January 16 She looks great, Bill. The only suggestion I would make is to try and get the kinks out of the slacked lines. Perhaps they can be 'painted' with dilute white glue and then held in place until set? I am not sure which method works best for this, but I am sure it has been done here on MSW. Regards, Henry Hubac's Historian and Bill Morrison 2 Quote Henry Laissez le bon temps rouler ! Current Build: Le Soleil Royal Completed Build: Amerigo Vespucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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