J Class Yacht Rigging Question

[David Lester]

I am launched into a new project building a J Class yacht for a friend (Amati Shamrock V) and I have a question about the rigging that maybe someone knows the answer to.

 

The kit provides only natural coloured line (ecru, tan, off-white or whatever you want to call it) and the picture of the model on the box shows all of the rigging (both running and standing) done in this colour. Somehow this doesn't seem right to me. Since this is a 1930's era yacht, would it be correct to believe that the standing rigging would actually have been wire cable. Somehow that seems likely to me. Does anyone out there know?

 

On my Bluenose model the plans stated that all the standing rigging on that vessel was wire cable and had serving. (I didn't have a serving machine at that time, so just ignored this and simply used black line.) If the rigging on Shamrock V is wire cable, is it likely to have been served as well? Somehow that seems less likely to me. Again, if anyone knows, I'd be grateful.

 

If the standing rigging is wire cable and is not served, what do people think would be the best colour line to use for it. Simply black, or stick with the ecru line provided or would you do something unusual, such as gray. (I'm not going to try my hand at using actual wire.)

 

Anyway, any thoughts you have would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

David

Edited October 14, 2022 by David Lester

[Roger Pellett]

America’s Cup competition has always featured boats built with high tech features to gain a competitive edge.  This was as true in the 1930’s as it is today.  Furthermore, the very tall Marconi rigs were highly stressed and rigging was tuned (highly tensioned) to provide optimum performance.  Stretch had to be minimized.  As a minimum the J boats would have been rigged with wire rope.  In later years America’s Cup yachts featured solid rod rigging. More research needs to be done to determined which was used.

 

Roger

 

[Roger Pellett]

According to Llewellyn Howland III in his biography of W. Starling Burgess, the first large yacht to utilize solid bar rigging was the 1934 America’s Cup defender Rainbow.  The bars couldn’t be produced in long enough lengths requiring turnbuckles half way up. Shamrock V would, therefore, have been rigged with wire rope.

 

 Apparently, the J Boats also used wire rope for some running rigging.  Burgess, became marooned atop Enterprise’s mast when he used the main halyard to hoist him up. The wire rope halyard was heavier than he was! 

 

Roger

[Bob Cleek]

2 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

Burgess, became marooned atop Enterprise’s mast when he used the main halyard to hoist him up. The wire rope halyard was heavier than he was! 

Another story about the same phenomenon related how a fellow went up the mast in a bosun's chair on one of the J's with the intention of varnishing the mast on the way down. He had a block on his tackle or chair with a messenger line down to the deck so his assistant could haul a bucket up to him. He called for the bucket full of varnish and the brush, a fair amount of varnish, to be sure, and when the bucket got past the balance point on the way up, the bitter end of the line started accelerating down and the bucket accelerated up. It was going at a pretty good clip when it hit the bottom of the bosun's chair and sprayed the bucket of varnish all over the man aloft and everything alow ! Too bad nobody caught that one on film.  

[allanyed]

I know it is a 7 hour drive from Cobourg to midtown Manhattan, but if you can do it, contact the office of the chairman of the Model Committee at the New York Yacht Club to arrange a visit.   I think the current chairman is Peter Sweetser.   In years past they left me alone for a few hours with the collection to make sketches (but no photos at the time.)   Perhaps now they will also allow photos.    It is a fascinating collection of over 1200 of some of the best schooner and racing models in the world.  

 

Allan

Edited October 15, 2022 by allanyed

[David Lester]

Thanks for the input, guys (and the stories too.) That's pretty much what I guessed to be the case. I don't think I'll try using wire for the standing rigging however; I'd never get it lay straight and even and I imagine just a slight touch might put a slight bend in it. I'll probably just end up using black line, but maybe I'll experiment a bit with a metal-like colour.

 

Allan, thanks for the information about the NYYC model collection. I had a look at their website and I think That would certainly be a great place to visit, however, I don't see a New York adventure in my near future (let's be honest, I rarely leave the basement!)

 

Thanks again,

David

[Roger Pellett]

Every year during the SNAME conference there is a dinner for Naval Architecture  alumni of the University of Michigan. While not a SNAME member, I always get invited.  One year the dinner was held at the New York Yacht Club.  Unlike most yacht clubs it’s in the middle of Manhattan, not on the water.  I was able to schedule other business to be in NYC to attend the dinner.  As Allan writes, a visit to the club’s model is an opportunity not to be missed.  The model collection is spectacular and I don’t think that they are about to put them in storage to make room for a more “relevant” display.

 

I would suspect that Shamrock’s wire rigging would not have been served.  Designers of these yachts were concerned with the aerodynamics of the rig.  They would have tried to minimize the cross sectional area of the standing rigging to cut wind resistance.  

 

Here again, more research is necessary but I believe that the racing rigs were considering to be “temporary.”  When these challengers crossed the Atlantic to race, if sailed they did so under reduced rig. Later the Cup Rules allowed boats to be towed or shipped on a steamer.  The racing rig was erected upon arrival in the US for competition.  Some of the American J’s were furnished with several masts that could be swapped out during the trials.  In any case,  these boats did not have long lives.

 

Roger

Edited October 15, 2022 by Roger Pellett

[allanyed]

2 hours ago, David Lester said:

but maybe I'll experiment a bit with a metal-like colour.

I look forward to following your build log David.   I totally agree that using wire is a nightmare.  I had more pin holes in my fingers in one session than all the tiny cuts from scalpels over 40+ years.   I have a couple spools of the stuff in the shop that will take care of hanging pictures for the rest of my life.  Do try getting some metal like thread instead of the wire.   Would the wire color be more towards black than grey?  It easy to make crimps regardless of the color to avoid serving but  I am not so sure seizings and serving was not used on racing yachts 100 years ago,  Roger you probably have it right, but was this the norm when Shamrock V was in her racing heyday?   I suspect some research should turn up some contemporary photos that will give the answer. 

 

Allan

 

[mnl]

Shamrock V displaces 146 tons. There is a rule of thumb that for a racing yacht the breaking strength of the shrouds should be equal to the displacement. A quick check of a wire rope table says 2” wire rope is 320,000 lbs, close enough. At your scale that would be 0.025”. I don’t know if they were using rod rigging yet, but that would obviously be a little smaller. I doubt they had gone to oval cross section yet to reduce windage.

 

The pictures of Shamrock in the present day are all clearly rod rigging.

[Roger Pellett]

Per my post above, The first J Boat rigged with rod rigging was the 1934 American Cup defender Rainbow.

 

There is an interesting connection between prewar yacht design and the aircraft industry.  Starling Burgess, Rainbow’s designer designed airplanes in the 1920’s, and Sopwith, builder of the famous  Sopwith Camel owned one or more of the British challengers.  Designers of these high performance yachts, therefore, would have followed developments in building high performance aircraft.  Burgess was also involved in the application of aluminum for boats and cars.  Burgess used proprietary fittings for attaching rigging to Rainbow’s spars and the hull.

 

High quality small diameter diameter wire rope can be bought from fishing tackle suppliers.  It is used for towing “downriggers,” heavy lead weights used to control depth of fishing lines.  I also have a stash of very small diameter stranded wire cable that I used many years ago in an unsuccessful attempt at control line model airplane flying.

 

Roger

[Dr PR]

You can find small multi-strand wire in jewelry supplies in hobby stores.

 

I have some Beadalon brand 7 strand at 0.012", (0.30 mm) 0.015"  (0.38 mm) and 0.018" (0.46 mm) diameter. I also have some nylon coated Cable Strand Corp. Acculon brand 3 strand at 0.012" (0.30 mm) diameter.

[allanyed]

Phil

I have no love for working with any kind of wire, but that has been my experience so maybe time for another try using the wire you mention.   Are you using crimps or some other securing method and do you find it difficult to keep things tight?   Pictures????

Thank you very much.

Allan