Running rigging chain sizes

[Boccherini]

I'm about to start drilling holes into masts for sheaves to accommodate chain tyes for the upper yards. Underhill only provides sizes for hemp and wire. 

Are there any tables of chain sizes available for the various tyes, sheets, downhauls etc.?

Any help appreciated.

 

Grant

 

[allanyed]

Hi Grant

What nation/ship/era?  James Lees goes into describing chain slings and truss pendants and falls on the lower yards for British war ships after about 1850 but these may not be appropriate for your ship.

Allan

 

[Boccherini]

Allan,

Harriet McGregor, 1871, 3 masted barque, 331 tons. Tasmania, Australia.

 

Grant.

Edited June 19, 2023 by Boccherini

[allanyed]

Hi Grant,

Sorry, but I doubt the information from Lees will be worthwhile.  Hope you find some contemporary based data.  There are rope sizes but not chain sizes.  Looking at equivalents on line, it SEEMS chain with links made of material 1/2 the diameter of the rope diameter would be appropriate.  This does not necessarily give the link width or length though.    I hope someone has the data as it will be interesting to see how rope and chain compare in this case.

 

Does the topic or the book on Ed Tosti's Young America build go into this?

 

Allan

[Boccherini]

Thanks for the assistance Allan.

Ed Tosti's Young America log is monumental, trying to find a specific topic is a lucky dip.

I'll ask if he can direct me to the relevant section....... if it exists.

Thanks again,

Grant.

 

[allanyed]

7 hours ago, Boccherini said:

Ed Tosti's Young America log is monumental, trying to find a specific topic is a lucky dip.

Use the search tool and it makes things go quickly.  I typed in a few key words and came up with a number of posts in Ed's build log, including #3079 that might be a good one for you.   

Allan

[Boccherini]

Now why didn't I think of that.

Thanks.

[Highwayman]

Try this link to Google Books.

page 140 to page 145 show tables where rope sizes & strengths and equivalent chain sizes may br deduced.

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Rudimentary_treatise_on_masting_mast_mak.html?id=6l4BAAAAQAAJ&redir_esc=y

[Boccherini]

Thanks for the link. Had a quick look at it, interesting.

Thanks again.

Grant.

[BANYAN]

Hi Grant, please see my PM.  HMCSS Victoria also made extensive use of chain in the rigging but unfortunately, the Rigging Warrant mostly lists the chain as "equivalent to" the listed hemp rope - but no rope size is given; for example for the lower yard slings.   However, there are a few listings: for example, the Tye chain for the fore topgallant yard is listed as 17ft of 5/16 inch , and the topsail sheets and tye chain are listed as 9/16 inch.  However, I can only assume the chain size is the wire size (thickness of the rod used to form the link).  However, please note these sizes are specific for the rigging strength required in this vessel and may have differed to that required in your vessel of interest?  I cannot be more specific about other chain rigging at the moment as I am away on holidays with no access to my reference library, but I do have a copy of the Rigging Warrant on my Laptop.

 

From another document I had access to via a private message I had sent on this forum, I can provide: Middendorf, 'Bemastung und Takelung der Schiffe', 1903, page 401, states that chains running over blocks should be short-link chains.  Brady, ‘The Kedge Anchor’, pages 310/311, confirms this in listing short-link chain for running rigging.  He also informs that ⅛” of iron in diameter is more than equal to an inch of hemp rope in circumference.   According to the Canadian Defence ‘Engineer Field Manual’, Volume 15, Chapter 4, page 62, chain is termed short-link when the length of a link is less than five times the diameter of the wire size and the links are normally oval shaped, giving a good strength to weight factor. 

 

Hope this helps you a little?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Boccherini]

Pat, 

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Your reply adds to and/or confirms what little information I have managed to acquire.

The link Highwayman provided has some useful content, unfortunately the format (manually scanned) makes it difficult for me to work with. Persistence is required.

Thanks for interrupting your holiday to reply.

Regards,

Grant.

 

[Boccherini]

Persistence has it's rewards. The book linked by Highwayman (Rudimentary treatise on masting, mast-making, and rigging of ships by Robert Kipping), if I've understood it correctly, provides sufficient information to work out the chain sizes.

This knowledge has created problem.....the smallest chain obtainable afaik is up to 42 links per inch, which works for the bobstays and jibboom shrouds, but not for the sheets etc.. These range from (if my reckoning is correct) 65 to 106 links per inch at 1:60.

Any suggestions on how to imitate chain at this scale?

 

Grant.

 

[Dr PR]

Look at Wefalck's S.M.S. Wespe build. He used very thin wire twisted together to simulate small chain.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/8957-sms-wespe-armoured-gunboat-1876-of-the-imperial-german-navy-by-wefalck-–-1160-scale-when-first-commissioned/?do=findComment&comment=977727

 

[Boccherini]

Thanks Phil. Spent some time this afternoon twisting 0.17 & 0.27mm copper wire. With my glasses and a head loupe it looks a little like wire cable; without the magnification it has an approximate appearance of chain.

 

Grant.

[Dr PR]

Wefalck's "chain" looks pretty good. I think the black coated wire he used adds to the impression. Also I suspect there is just the "right" twist to get appropriately sized "chain links." I have wondered how I would make very small chains for lifelines at 1:96 and if I ever get around to working on my cruiser model I will try this.

[Boccherini]

Thanks Phil,

I've had a look at Wefalk's work, amazing stuff at that scale.

There is a "tipping point" with twisting. Too much and you end up with cable. I'll try using the rope walk, it may give more control over the process.

The copper "chain" blackens quite well after it has been annealed to remove the protective/insulating coating and soften the wire.

 

Grant.