Calculating rope thickness (Fictional ship)

[Harry12]

Hi everyone, 

 

My name is Harry i'm 21 years old. I'm currently making my first ever modelship of the Fictional Pirate ship The Black Pearl from the Pirates of the caribbean films. However there is a twist, this model is entirely made out of LEGO. Don't think less of her though, she is made according to the official blueprint and I have followed every angle with upmost precision. She is as accurate as she can be. 

 

However i have been struggling for a while now when it comes to rigging her. Of course some liberty has to be taken with the rigging given that it is a lego ship after all, but im struggling when it comes to the thickness of the ropes used in the rigging of the ship. I have no idea how to calculate it and get the right size or something that looks quitte right. I don't want to order multiple sizes and see which fits the best you'know.

 

I am aware that there has been some discussion about the calculation of the rope thickness for model ships on this forum, however here is the tricky part. I have autism and that makes it very difficult for me to understand things in general. Without a clear instruction of ''this is how you do it and here is an example'' I won't be able to understand it, not to mention that Math was my absolute worst subject in school. I did read that the circumference of the rope is dependant on the diameter of the mast however is this the real mast of the ship or the model ship mast? 

 

Now I hope some of you, can help me with this endeavour because I really want to have this ship look the best she can. But I know after a long while of struggling that I can't do it alone anymore I very much need help when it comes to the details that I have no knowledge about.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Harry12

[allanyed]

Welcome to MSW Harry!!   Hope you post some pics as this sounds like a very interesting project.   

Regarding the rigging, it is almost always given in circumference rather than thickness (diameter) so you will have to do some converting.

There is a chart here at MSW where all you have to do is enter some basic data and it will give you the dimensions of the masts, yards, and rigging lines.   The Disney series was taking place about 1728  but the ship design looks more like 17th century. The earliest you can use with the chart is 1627 and 1640 or you can use 1711.  DO NOT USE 1670 as the spread sheet is completely wrong for 1670-1710.   Go to https://thenrg.org/resource/articles and scroll down to the rigging spread sheet by Danny Vadas.   In actual practice for your build, depending on your scale, you can probably just use 7 or 8 different size lines and it will look good so you can just use the chart as a general guide.   Good luck

Allan

[Harry12]

and when it comes to the data to enter for the beam or the size of the keel are those data refering to the scale model or the actuall ship? 

[Gregory]

If you are able to enter data, then you would have entered your scale on the strt page.

 

With this in mind, all measurements you enter would be full size.

[Harry12]

I did find a workaround the blocking of the file, so it is working but i do struggle with the data to input in the boxes. can they be in cm or do they have to be metres? Full size is the full size of the scale model correct?

[Gregory]

Full size is the size of the actual ship..

 

If you are working in a scale of 1:12,  1 inch on the model would be 12 inches' on the full size ship.

 

If the full size rope circumference is 4 inches, then it would be 4/12 = .333 inches on the model.   for diameter, divide circumference by 3.14

 

Are you working from plans, or just pictures, and have decided on a size for the model?

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Gregory

[Harry12]

I'm actually working from a plan, There is a refference person on the blueprint, I made him the same height as a lego minifigure in Indesign. which means in LEGO terms this is considered minifigure scale which is 1:48. I then printed the blueprint on huge banner paper

 

it seem im doing it wrong as the shrouds are 0.8 mm, that just isn't right is it? it seem im doing it wrong as the shrouds are 0.8 mm, that just isn't right is it? I have some images from behind the scenes which showcase the full scale of the rope used, so 0.8 mm just doesn't seem right or am I plainly wrong? I will upload the blueprint here, and thank you for being patient with me. 

 

Here is what I did; I measured the full blueprint which was about 16,6 cm in width, converted that to inches which is 6.54 multiplied that times 48 = 313 inches. I then converted this to Decimal feet which is 26

 

the lower gundeck length was 56 cm = 22.05 inches x 48 = 1058 inch to decimal feet = 88

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Harry12

[allanyed]

The shroud circumference is 0.6 X the stay of that mast.  The lower stay was half the diameter of the appropriate lower mast. Depending on the era, the mast diameter was 0.9 to 1 inch  for each 3 feet of length.   The length of the main mast was 2.4 the beam up to 1669.  From 1670 you add the length of the keel, breadth of the ship and depth of the ship, then divide by 1.66. Then, if the beam exceeds 27 feet deduct from the total the amount that the beam is in excess of 27 feet,   If the beam is less than 27 feet add to the total, the amount that the beam is short of 27 feet.  From 1711 it is the length of the lower gun deck plus the extreme beam (outside of the planking) and divide the total by two.   This is all from  Lees' Masting and Rigging

Allan

[Gregory]

Harry12,

I wouldn't be obsessed with precisely following the establishments for 17th century ship rigging.

 

There is always the rule of " what looks good, is good " ..

 

Take a look at some of the contemporary models in the gallery here..

 

Gallery of Contemporary Models from Museums and Private Collections

 

Try to maintain a sense of proportion.  The standing rigging will be heavier on larger masts, and will get smaller the higher up on the masts.

 

For the running rigging; heavier on the larger yards, and getting lighter as it goes higher.

 

The rat lines are probably the smallest ropes, and something modelers often make too large.

 

I like to go to Chuck's Cheerful as a great example of rigging that looks proportional.

 

While your three masted ship will have a lot more lines, the principles of look and proportion will remain the same.

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Gregory

[Harry12]

10 hours ago, allanyed said:

1711 it is the length of the lower gun deck plus the extreme beam (outside of the planking) and divide the total by two.   This is all from  Lees' Masting and Rigging

According to my calculations the length of the lower gund deck should be about 88 decimal feet. And the beam of the ship is 26 decimal feet. in total this should be 114 decimal feet, divided by two = 57 decimal feet. Where in the spreadsheet do I put this Allan? there is only the length of the gundeck and beam as boxes to put in. But not after its divided by two? I did manage to convert my calculations to decimal feet ?

[Harry12]

11 hours ago, Gregory said:

Harry12,

I wouldn't be obsessed with precisely following the establishments for 17th century ship rigging.

 

There is always the rule of " what looks good, is good " ..

 

Take a look at some of the contemporary models in the gallery here..

 

Gallery of Contemporary Models from Museums and Private Collections

 

Try to maintain a sense of proportion.  The standing rigging will be heavier on larger masts, and will get smaller the higher up on the masts.

 

For the running rigging; heavier on the larger yards, and getting lighter as it goes higher.

 

The rat lines are probably the smallest ropes, and something modelers often make too large.

 

I like to go to Chuck's Cheerful as a great example of rigging that looks proportional.

 

While your three masted ship will have a lot more lines, the principles of look and proportion will remain the same.

 

 

Yeah I know, most model makers can just see what looks right and what doesn't, but it would save me a lot of money If I could know the exact diameter of rope that I need to get. I have to order a specific black twisted rope from Canada, which isn't close to me at all. And the rope itself is already rather expensive from ''The ropes of scale.com'' 

 

So I'd prefer it if I have a concrete list of the sizes so I know which ones to buy immidately instead of trying out multiple sizes (which there are a lot of) I guess there is no easier way to do all of this is there? 

 

My current calculations in the spreadsheet comes out to 0.7 for the shroud but thats impsossible as I already have nylon rope which is 0.8 and that was already too thin. I found another photo of the ships rigging up close. I have uploaded an updated plan of the model with its current dimensions.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Harry12

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, Harry12 said:

Where in the spreadsheet do I put this Allan?

I am pretty sure you have nothing more to do other than start the program by hitting the enter data button at the top,  but you put the two dimensions  in the first rate box.   Your ship is closer to a fifth or sixth rate.  I have no idea if the results would actually change.

 

Long hand using the ratios in Lees 

 (88+26)/2=57

57/3= 19 so the mast diameter is 19 inches

The circumference of the main stay is 0.5X 19=9.5"

The circumference of the shroud is 9.5X 0.6 =5.7"

The diameter/thickness is 5.7/3.14159= 1.81"    

At a scale of 1:48 it is 0.0377" or 0.96mm so 1mm should do well for you if you are building to 1:48 scale.

The diameter for the foremast will be smaller and for the mizzen smaller still.  For the foremast most people would not notice if you use the same diameter as for the foremast.

 

For buying rope, where are you located?

[Harry12]

Damn! allan thank you I did not understand Lee at all, but using such an example helps me a lot. I'm located in the Netherlands. We have almost no retailers when it comes to rope for scale models. There is one closeby in germany, but they don't sell Black rope anymore. Only dark brown and since its made of polyester I can't dye it using fabric dye (which I tried when dyed my sails for the first time, the sails turned out gray instead of black, and the ropes were still dark brown instead of black) 

 

I understand most of lee's calculations now thanks to you, however where did you get the  0.0377" or 0.96mm from?

 

is Lees book available somewhere without having to spend 200$? which is what I could find on Amazon (if thats the right book that is)

 

Also its about time I showed you guys some of my pictures of the ship (sails are temporary, it was just to get an idea what route I should go

Edited October 1, 2023 by Harry12

[allanyed]

Dark brown is realistic. IF tarred rope was used it would have been pine resin or something similar and the color would be dark brown, never black.   Kits often include black which is not correct in the majority, or perhaps all, cases.  17th century models often had  untarred rope on the standing rigging so the era is something to consider.   If you are staying with the 18th century rigging, dark brown is the way to go, not black. 

Allan

Edited October 1, 2023 by allanyed

[Bob Cleek]

Hi Harry! Welcome to MSW. That's an amazing LEGO model! It's quite interesting how LEGO has become more and more intricate over the years and is now attracting a much older and more accomplished group of modelers.

 

You've got some good information and advise from the guys who've posted already and I'd say you are making a lot better progress that most who tackle the same modeling challenges. 

 

I don't have anything to add to the good advice you've gotten already, but I do have a suggestion that may save you a lot of money and allow you to have a lot of fun. I'm "ballparking" the size of your model and can see that you will need a lot more cordage to rig your model than you may imagine if you intend to rig her accurately. The amount of "rope" you will need adds up quickly and you've also got to allow for "off cuts" of lengths that will be longer than the actual distance you need because you will need additional "working length" to tie knots and so on. Getting a proper range of rope sizes is a challenge you have already encountered. You are indeed correct that you will have to spend a considerable amount of money to purchase ready made rope and you will be limited to the sizes that the manufacturer offers. (Custom sizes may be available, but at an additional price!)

 

So I suggest you consider "rolling your own" rope. This is how most modelers who tackle models of the size and complexity of rigging you are contemplating do it. It's actually quite easy to make your own rope in any size or color you require from standard sewing thread and it's far less costly than buying it ready-made. You will only need an electric drill and a "ropewalk" (rope-making "machine.") The best for your purposes would probably be a Syren "Rope Rocket" which is made and sold by an MSW member, Chuck Passaro. I see where the "Rope Rocket" has increased in price a little bit since the last time I checked, but it is still only $115 and it will pay for itself several times over if you use it to make your own rope from inexpensive sewing thread. Here's the Syren Rope Rocket website: https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/ropewalk.php There's lots of information on rope making in general and the Rope Rocket in particular here in the "Articles" drop-down link at the top of the homepage masthead: https://modelshipworld.com/forum/82-discussions-about-rope-making/ 

 

(I just saw that you are in the Netherlands. I'm pretty sure Chuck Passaro can mail you a Rope Rocket if your order one because they come disassembled and shipping should be pretty simple, but you can check that out on their website if you are interested.)

 

This is all just a suggestion, but with your own ropewalk, you can make tons of scale rope in any size or color you wish. (And from the sound of it, there's a ready market for scale rope in Europe that isn't being filled. It could become a career!  ) If some of the rope you make doesn't look right or whatever, all you have to do is just make more and throw the "mistakes" out. Once you have the Rope Rocket, you are freed from having to wait for what you order to come in the mail, too. 

 

Here's a couple of videos from Chuck Passaro's Syren Ship Model Company's website that show how it's done:

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Bob Cleek

[Harry12]

5 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Dark brown is realistic. IF tarred rope was used it would have been pine resin or something similar and the color would be dark brown, never black.   Kits often include black which is not correct in the majority, or perhaps all, cases.  17th century models often had  untarred rope on the standing rigging so the era is something to consider.   If you are staying with the 18th century rigging, dark brown is the way to go, not black. 

Allan

Thats a beauty! I was torn on this actually while historically accurate yes they would be dark brown as no black rope was made in that time period. But the black pearl uses black Rope as the ship was burnt which gives her that blackened appearence I have some photos courtesy of the Model maker at ILM at the time. THis is the screenused miniature that was used during filming

[allanyed]

The model you show is really well done and if you want black rope go for it.  You can always just get tan rope and stain it with India ink or wood stain.  India ink is acidic so wood stains may be better.  Hopefully other members will have suggestions of stains that are appropriate.  Keep in mind that the ship is fictional and the model they made is not accurate in some respects.  For example it shows belaying pins which were not prevalent until much later in the 18th century.  In the end, do what makes you happiest, this is a hobby after all.  

Allan

Edited October 1, 2023 by allanyed

[Harry12]

4 minutes ago, allanyed said:

The model you show is really well done and if you want black rope go for it.  You can always just get tan rope and stain it.   Keep in mind that the ship is fictional and the model is not accurate in some respects.  For example it shows belaying pins which were not commonly used until much later in the 18th century.  In the end, do what makes you happiest, this is a hobby after all.  

Allan

Yeah you are probably right, im getting to much into the details which isn't a bad thing by itself but well I have an unhealthy amount of perfectionism, which prevent me from finishing a lot of things due to being unhappy with the accuracy of the result. Oh well, also where did you get this from 

 

''At a scale of 1:48 it is 0.0377" or 0.96mm so 1mm should do well for you if you are building to 1:48 scale''

 

The numbers 0.0377" or 0.96mm, I can't seem to find it anywhere in the calculations

[allanyed]

Harry.  I calculated the diameter at 1.81 inches then scaled it to 1:48

1.81/48=0.0377.  IF your scale is something else, just divide the 1.81 by the scale you are using then convert to metric if you prefer metric.

Allan

 

[Harry12]

Okay so thats how, Also I did manage to find the Blueprint in high quality in one of the bonus features on the Pirates of the caribbean Blu ray behind the scenes documentary, and I can clearly read that the Deadeyes used were 10 and 8 inches in diameter. Can this information be used somehow for the ropes or just stick to the calculations, because these deadeyes dimensions are the only ones I know for certain