Is the Sergal Thermopylae (791) kit any good?

[Scottish Guy]

Dear fellow model builders,

 

unfortunately I can´t find much about the Thermopylae at all, seems to be a not so well liked model. Also there is not much about the Sergal kit except that it seems to be a... "difficult" kit to build that seemed to have cast some frustration on some builders. I like the Thermopylae as I love the Cutty Sark. I have the opportunity to buy the Sergal Thermopylae (791) and the Mantua Cutty Sark "LePicolle" (612) as a bundle for around GBP 100. Both are wooden kits and both are of interest for me.

 

Questions are... are these kits worth the money and are they doable or should I, as a not yet very experienced wooden builder, keep my hands of both of them?

 

Micha

[Baker]

I have the thermopylae from sergal. tentatively scheduled to start building next winter.
Built "out of the box" it can produce quite a good model.

Disadvantage of the thermopylae:
almost no information available about it
There is no copper sheeting in the sergal box.

But new in the box it costs in belgium €95, which is quite a reasonable price for the kit

[Scottish Guy]

Thank you Patrick for the answer. Unfortunately I noticed too that there is not much of information about the Thermopylae. I don´t understand why because she´s pretty close to the Cutty Sark by look and shape. I love both ships even if the Cutty Sark is much more known.

 

The price seems to be pretty reasonable to me especially since the bundle is made out of two ships, the Thermopylae and the Cutty Sark "LePicolle" in 1:200 scale. On the other hand I can get a Revell Thermopylae in 1:96 (plastic kit). Torn between the plastic kit (1:96) and the wooden Sergal kit (1:124).

 

Micha

[davyboy]

Hello Micha,

 

Can't help with an evaluation of these kits but as you live in the Grampian region you can't be too far from Aberdeen. The Aberdeen Maritime Museum has what I believe to be the Builders model of Thermopylae which I saw when I lived in the Bridge of Don. It's a beautiful model and worth a visit if you're really interested in her.

 

When the Hall Russell shipyard closed down in 1992 as I understand it most of their archives were given to the Aberdeen Maritime Museum. They may have some plans of her perhaps or some information. Maybe worth your while contacting them.

 

Dave 

[GrandpaPhil]

I have Mantua’s Victory and the Sergal set of plans for the Soleil Royal.

 

Their kits and plans look nice but need a LOT of help.

 

They can make a good starting point though.

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

1 hour ago, Baker said:

I have the thermopylae from sergal. tentatively scheduled to start building next winter.
Built "out of the box" it can produce quite a good model.

Disadvantage of the thermopylae:
almost no information available about it
There is no copper sheeting in the sergal box.

But new in the box it costs in belgium €95, which is quite a reasonable price for the kit

  Popeye the Sailor has a build log for the Sergal Thermopylae, and contains a lot of info as far as he took the build on the hull work.  Other Sergal considerations are:

1.) the 1:124 scale is on the small size for a clipper - as are all the old 1:120 Scientific clipper kits.  I find the 1:100 restoration I'm on now to be hard enough.

 

2.)  The Sergal Thermie stern has a vertical end to it ... look at Thermopylae photos, and you'll see a nice angle in the stern.  This would not be too hard to alter at an early stage in planking.

 

3.)  Sergal uses obvious channel with oversize deadeyes. The original has the deadeyes mounted on the gunwale (perhaps wider than average to accommodate).  This change would also not be hard to make.

 

4.) Popeye uses an aftermarket  PE kit to enhance the build, and it may be hard to find this now.

 

  Still, with  a your exemplary skills the result will be fine.  The Mary Rose project is amazing, mate.

[Scottish Guy]

41 minutes ago, davyboy said:

Can't help with an evaluation of these kits but as you live in the Grampian region you can't be too far from Aberdeen.

 

Hi Dave, you are correct, Aberdeen is roughly a 2 hrs drive. Maybe it is really worth to visit the museum. Maybe they even can supply some proper plans, which would be amazing tbh. Will give it a go soon, we wanted to visit Aberdeen anyway in three weeks, so maybe that will be the time to visit the museum.

 

Micha

[Scottish Guy]

27 minutes ago, GrandpaPhil said:

Their kits and plans look nice but need a LOT of help.

 

Hi Phil, why did I expect something like that lol... I might buy them and maybe the Maritime Museum Aberdeen has some plans and combining them might be a good base to start that model. I´m tending to the wooden model since plastic is nice but I have already the 1959 Cutty Sark in plastic, think a wooden model would be agreat opportunity.

 

Micha

[Baker]

3 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  Popeye the Sailor has a build log for the Sergal Thermopylae, and contains a lot of info as far as he took the build on the hull work.  Other Sergal considerations are:

1.) the 1:124 scale is on the small size for a clipper - as are all the old 1:120 Scientific clipper kits.  I find the 1:100 restoration I'm on now to be hard enough.

 

2.)  The Sergal Thermie stern has a vertical end to it ... look at Thermopylae photos, and you'll see a nice angle in the stern.  This would not be too hard to alter at an early stage in planking.

 

3.)  Sergal uses obvious channel with oversize deadeyes. The original has the deadeyes mounted on the gunwale (perhaps wider than average to accommodate).  This change would also not be hard to make.

 

4.) Popeye uses an aftermarket  PE kit to enhance the build, and it may be hard to find this now.

 

  Still, with  a your exemplary skills the result will be fine.  The Mary Rose project is amazing, mate.

Thanks. 

1/124 is small indeed. And it will take a lot of extra work.
But I do believe that a beginner can make a nice model out of it.
ps
got mine for free so nothing to lose if it fails.

[Roger Pellett]

in reading MSW build logs for kit built models I find that builders often get concerned with details.  This seems to be especially true with rigging.  Almost never does the builder seem to be concerned with what should be the question to be asked before buying the kit in the first place:

 

”If I build this kit will it accurately reproduce the lines (shape) of the actual vessel’s hull?”

 

In the past, some kit manufacturers were, putting it politely, “casual” concerning this.  This could be particularly true of Clippers as overlooked subtle differences between different vessels could still allow models of different ships to both look impressive. There was also a tendency by manufacturers to save money by widely spacing bulkheads, supposedly solved by the ubiquitous double planking.

 

The manufacturers of POB ship model kits seem to have upped their game in the past few years and several offer kits that can produce accurate and stunning models.  I would, therefore, be cautious about buying an old kit.  
 

Many kit builders also have a stash of kits that they intend to build someday. These stashes can represent many lifetimes of ship model building.  My stash is not ship model kits but books. I have shelves of books for researching projects that I was once excited about building but now realize won’t get built.

 

My advice to you: Finish the project(s) that you are now working on, and take satisfaction on jobs well done.  Then decide what you want to build based on skills and interests at that time.  Meanwhile save your £100.

 

Roger

[Scottish Guy]

6 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

the 1:124 scale is on the small size for a clipper - as are all the old 1:120 Scientific clipper kits.  I find the 1:100 restoration I'm on now to be hard enough.

 

Hi Johnny, that is my biggest issue. The scale, the plastic kit (Revell) comes in 1:96, a size I really like, the Sergal come in 1:124 which is compared to the plastic kit quiete small. I like the models bigger because my hands are having issues with small things (thanks to arthritis).

 

6 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

The Sergal Thermie stern has a vertical end to it ... look at Thermopylae photos, and you'll see a nice angle in the stern.  This would not be too hard to alter at an early stage in planking.

 

I noticed that in the LOG here, I think it is the one from Popeye. I like the way the ship is done. I´m a bit torn if I should go with the plastic kit or the wooden kit. I like the wooden kit stuff but I don´t like the size. Maybe get the plans and do a wooden scratch build in 1:96?

 

Micha

[Jaager]

David Macgregor drew a set of plans for Thermopylae I believe.   His plans went to an outfit that really ain't much of an ally.

Something is available: https://ssgreatbritain.printstoreonline.com/ship-plans/

 

here is a link here to chase:  https://modelshipworld.com/topic/24168-merchant-sailing-ships-serie-david-macgregor/

 

and another: https://www.ssgreatbritain.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/david-macgregor-ship-plans-collection-july-2013.pdf

 

This said, collect plans,  collect books.  I think that collecting kits only serves the kit manufacturers.  The old pre-fire Mantua kits look to be really awful to me.  I think three of their most popular subjects are the same hull in different clothes:  Bounty, Endeavor, Beagle.  For their kits in general:  All of it seems to have been just the minimum required. 

 

A clipper is a major project.  A composite hull post 1860 clipper even more of a challenge.  Large hulls at a small scale is requiring miniaturist skills.  Unless it is a widow recently stuck with "toys" that she resented having funds spent on when obtained,  I suspect that "deals" for old kits are gilded bricks.  Someone trying to recover some of the money spent on really poor decisions about illusions, dreams, and mirages. 

 

Here is an idea:  Keep a diary of subjects as they grab your interest.  Have the links and references there.  Buy no kits until your board is clear.  When you get to the 'buy another kit' stage, you will be surprised at the number of diverse trails, strange ideas, and dry holes there are in the diary.  

 

Edited May 14 by Jaager

[GrandpaPhil]

Cornwall Model Boats has the plans for the Sergal Thermopylae for £14.84.  

 

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/Thermopylae-Construction-Plans-Set-961.html

Those plans have the parts sheets included.

 

You could always scale those plans up to 1/96 scale and modify/build at will.

They also have the plans for the Cutty Sark as well.

 

The research and learning is half the fun.

Edited May 15 by GrandpaPhil

[Roger Pellett]

If you are going to buy plans get the best.  David MacGregor was a serious student of sailing ships.  You can rely on his work.  His Thermopylae drawings are reproduced in one of his several books.  His lines drawing beautifully captures the ship’s shape.

 

Almost 15£ Spent on Conwall’s drawing just allows you to reproduce the Sergal kit model with whatever limitations it has.

 

Roger

[NoelSmith]

The best plans of Cutty Sark  are the George Campbell plans available from the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, UK. Look in their Cutty Sark Collection in the on line shop. They are very reasonably priced too compared with other possibly less accurate model makers plans.

 

Anyone looking to build Thermopylae from the big Revell kit needs to be aware that they used the Cutty Sark hull mouldings on it as well as their Pedro Nunes Training ship that was Thermopylae before being sold to the Portugese Navy. Not sure if Revell did a similar thing with their smaller Thermopylae kit too.

I believe the big Kearsarge and Alabama used the same hull mouldings as did the Bounty and Beagle kits from Revell.

Edited May 23 by NoelSmith

[Gary Woods]

Mantua has an English download of the instructions in more detail

Microsoft Word - Thermopylae translation 010714.doc (mantuamodel.co.uk)

Really useful.