Byrnes Rope Walk

[Ulises Victoria]

HI everyone,

 

I just received my Byrnes ropewalk, which is every bit as wonderful as his other tools.

 

I have been experimenting today, learning the ropes ;-).

 

I have a question for those of you who are a number of steps ahead of me. How do you load the supply spools with multiple threads, and keep the tension even? I tried laying out two strands of threads across the room, tied the two together at one end, and taped the tied end to the spool. Then I tried to feed the two strands onto the spool as evenly as possible. The lumpiness of the finished rope in places suggests that the tension was not even throughout.

 

Any ideas?

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

Mark. I have loaded 2,3,4 and 7 strands in a spool. I made a very simple jig consisting of a piece of wood with 4 inch nails through it. Lets say I want to make 4 strand per spool rope. I just put 4 spools on the nails, grab 1 thread from each spool and tie them together at the machine's loading spools. I never worried about the tension. When the threads start winding up, just hold the threads between your fingers and  the tension automatically adjusts. I think your problem may be the speed. I found that going slow improved my results dramatically.

 

I have just spent part of this morning trying out my club's Rope Walk. My question is how do you know if you have the die the right size? How tight should the rope be going through the die? I used some old Mantua rigging thread for testing. I started with a pretty small diameter. I used the die that came with the rope walk. I think it is too big. But I am not sure.

Floyd. I think more important than the size of the hole, (which Jim says should be tight) is speed. I made a 3 strand rope using Gutterman quilting thread which is really thin. The hole in the die was a lot larger than the 3 threads together, however, my rope came out almost perfect. (See photo in previous page) I had tried to do it before with no success, but the reason was I was trying to do it too fast. Hope this helps you both.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Ulises Victoria

[jimbyr]

Floyd

 

I keep the die hole no larger than .005 above the finished rope.  It should be an effort to get all 3 lines through the die when stringing it up.  It looks like the head speed has a lot to do with it also.

 

Jim

[SJSoane]

 

Thanks, Ulises, I'll try the jig idea. It is a way better idea than stringing thread around the shop floor!

 

Mark

[fnkershner]

Thanks for all the help. I will try again today. So Jim I would like to suggest an attachment - How about a magnifying glass so you can see the rope you are creating?

[Geoff Matson]

Hi

 

I have been playing around a little with the ropewalk and figured one thing out. You need to be coordinated. To make good rope you need your (eyes) to keep the twisted rope in right place in front of the die. You need your (left hand) to control the supply wheel.  Your (right hand) to control the take up spool. The( speed control) has to be set to keep the rope twisting. You also need to be sure the supply wheel is set up right. Once you get it all figured out and with practice you can make beautiful rope to what ever scale you want. There is a learning curve so be patient.  I am going to practice with numerous threads to see which best suits me.

 

I really like the posts the members have made of their progress. Keep them coming

 

Geoff

[SJSoane]

 

At some point, it would be helpful to begin recording how many threads and RH/LH steps one has to go through to create rope of a given diameter, starting with threads of different diameters. Then, when one needs a rope of a certain size, it would be easy to look up how many threads of what thickness, and how many steps are needed to construct it.  Is anyone far enough along to have this kind of information?

 

I am looking at the anchor hawsers for the Bellona 74 at 3/16" scale, for example, and wondering how many threads, ropes, etc, will be needed to get to that size. I think it will use my entire supply so far!

 

Mark

[Meredith]

Mark,

A list of threads/numbers of strands etc and finished rope diameter sounds like a really good project.

 

I might start a spreadsheet and maybe if others do one with their experiments - collated it could be a really good resource.

[SJSoane]

 

Meridith,

 

That would be great!

 

i only have a couple of attempts, but I'll pull the information together and post it.

 

Best wishes,

 

Mark

[davec]

I have started a spreadsheet.  I've been using DMC Cordonnet crochet thread.  I've just started getting results that are OK, and made my first attempt at staining the line.
 

Mm                                Inch                                     How made

.31                                 .012                                     #80 plain

.44                                 .017                                     #20 plain

.61                                 .024                                     #60 1 strand per wheel

.78                                 .031                                     #20 1 strand per wheel

1.2                                 .046                                     #60 3 strands per wheel

 

Any thoughts on smaller diameter line for seizings and serving?  I need something natural fiber that will take a stain so it matches the larger lines.  Most of the small diameter stuff is synthetic.  I saw some very thin silk that is used for beading and comes in .005" and .008" diameter in white.  Has anyone used this before?

 

thanks!

 

Dave

 

Edited March 4, 2013 by davec

[Meredith]

You can get very fine silk in a wide variety of colours. Even some of the hand sewing cottons can be very fine - sorry I talk in either metric or thread size - so I am not sure what it is in inches without looking it up and converting!

 

I would imagine you couldnt require anything much finer than some heirloom sewing threads (cotton and dyes well) of about size 100... and silk would be available in a similar size.... maybe less than human hair diameter.

 

Of course if you need something even finer - we can talk microns..silk tops, superfine merino, pashimina, alpaca, angora - both goat and rabbit (the list goes on) and is all natural and will dye very well. For instance - human hair is around 60-80 microns. Super fine merino and angora etc can be sourced at 10-20 microns (the smaller the number the finer it is).... How fine do you want :)

Edited March 4, 2013 by Meredith

[Meredith]

I just had a search a size #50 silk thread Such as Tire Silk from Superior threads is about .008 inches. The size #100 silk for YSL is much finer. Do you need anything finer than that?

[Ulises Victoria]

I am currently working on making 3 spoolfulls of gutterman quilting thread into 1 3 strand rope. (Sorry forgot the correct terminology) There is a lot of thread in the spools and the thinner the rope, the slower it gets, so this may take me a few days because I can not spend 8 hours a day making ropes. What I intend to do is use those threads and start making LH and RH ropes using those very same threads to see how far I can go, and how large it is practical to get.

I am trying to determine the best method of getting thick ropes. Please see my post above about what I consider the three methods to make thick ropes. I think that  going by the method described here, of using the same threads several times, you will get large gaps in your diameters, and the method of using 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 strands per spool will give you the widest choice of diameters, but the rope will look more "plain". What do others here think?

I also think that a combination of these 2 methods may work, but we need to find the point at which to switch from one method to the other. (Am I making any sense???) 

[SJSoane]

 

Hi Ulises, Dave and Meredith,

 

Yes, Ulises, your comments makes perfect sense. When should we make up a line with many strands per spool, and when should we lay up a line left, then use those to lay up right, and so on?

 

I have an old spreadsheet of all of the lines needed for the Bellona, using James Lees' book on Masting and Rigging. I will try to consolidate this into a list of the actual diameters of lines needed for the ship, with notes of whether they should be cable laid, etc. Then we can see when a certain diameter should be many strands in one rope, or left hand turned into right hand, etc.

 

It will take me a few days; I converted from Microsoft Excel to Apple Numbers a few years ago, and a lot of cleanup is needed.

 

But now I have partners in figuring this out! I love this website.

 

Mark

[SJSoane]

 

So after re-reading Lees and David Antscherl's book on Rigging a 6th rate sloop of war, this is how I see it for now, until someone has a better reading:

 

Strands are twisted left handed (S direction); multiple strands are twisted right handed to form rope (Z direction); and multiple ropes are twisted left handed to form cable (S direction).

 

Most lines are ropes twisted right hand. The largest rigging such as stays, shrouds, and anchor cables, are all cables twisted left hand.

 

Now to make life interesting, most threads that we can buy are already twisted right hand. So to make a standard right hand rope, we need to twist enough threads left hand (Jim's counterclockwise setting) to form left handed strands, three of which are then twisted right hand to form the rope. 

 

The number of threads we load onto a supply spool will determine the size of the strands. After the strands are formed, we only load single strands onto the supply spools to form rope. And we only load single ropes to form cables.

 

To calculate how to form a rope of a given diameter, we need to know how big the strands need to be so that three of them make up the desired rope diameter. And to make the strands of the right diameter, we need to know how many threads are needed to make the strand of the desired diameter.

 

The same for calculating a cable. We need to know how big the ropes need to be so that three and sometimes four ropes will twist left handed to form the cable of the desired size.

 

So, let's say a strand is .01 inches in diameter, and three are twisted together to form a rope. Has anyone spotted a standard ratio for this, where for example we could say that the three together will be 1 1/2 or 2 times the diameter of the single strands? or this this variable depending upon the material? And for those of you who then spun ropes into cables, do you see a ratio of the individual ropes sizes to the finished cable size?

 

All for now!

 

Mark

[popeye2sea]

Seems to me that there would also be variation in the diameter of the final rope depending on whether it is slack or hard laid.  So, your finished diameter would depend on your technique as well as the number and size of the strands.

[davec]

Meredith – I need something pretty fine. When I looked at the line used for seizing on the Constitution, it looked like heavy twine between 1/8” and ¼” in diameter. .005” is around ¼” in 1/48 scale, and should look OK.

 

 

Mark – I made some RH rope with right hand twist DMC Cordonett. I was only using one strand on each spindle. It came out OK. The individual lines unwind, then rewind left hand as the rope is being made. I haven’t tried it with multiple strands on each spindle, and suspect that wouldn’t come out right.

 

Dave

[Ulises Victoria]

Mark... according to Jim, the result diameter of the 3 strands laid rope is approx (diam. of thread * 2.25), not *3 as one may think.

[Meredith]

Dave I would suspect Silk #100 should be good for what you need - used straight off the spool. You could make single strands into rope and I think it will still be narrow/fine enough. I made some rope out of silk #100 and it was too fine for me to photograph

 

YSL sell silk #100 as do other suppliers - comes in a vast array of colours too if you dont want to mess with dyeing.

 

I am hoping to get back to rope making in the next day or so. I have learnt so much from reading here and other peoples problems and solutions and the last few ropes I made - I am feeling confident I am now on the right track to get some lovely ropes.  I just need more time in my days now... simple!!!! But I have finally got my dirty/messy building area all sorted out  and I am very happy with it - not like the great workshops I have seen on here - but great for me as I have very limited places I can utilise. My "clean" room is almost done too.. just another shelving/storage unit I need to put together tonight (easy option Ikea furniture).  Then is just painting a room or two and I can dedicate my "spare" time to my ships. It feels like it has been way too long since I made any sawdust.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Meredith

[Ulises Victoria]

Hope to see your progress and accomplishments soon, Meredith. I feel much more confident with my RW Machine now. I am in the process of turning 3 spoolfulls of Guttermann quilting thread into a 3 laid rope. It's been a couple of days now because this thin threads take so many meters to fill a spool. I am planning to use these to keep turning left and right handed ropes to see how much is feasible or practical.

See you soon.

[Larry Van Es]

I found a Hoover vacuum cleaner belt the fits over the knob that you hold with your left hand thus freeing up the left hand. This allows you to adjust the speed and turn on and off the machine with the free hand. I bought a pair of them at Ace Hardware for about $4.50. The package said Hoover Genuine Parts style 160 part # 38528-033

[Meredith]

Great idea Larry - I might get some of those

[Ulises Victoria]

I found a Hoover vacuum cleaner belt the fits over the knob that you hold with your left hand thus freeing up the left hand. This allows you to adjust the speed and turn on and off the machine with the free hand. I bought a pair of them at Ace Hardware for about $4.50. The package said Hoover Genuine Parts style 160 part # 38528-033

Is this modification approved by Jim???       Hehe...

Great Idea. One thing I thought this machine really needs is exactly a way to hold that wheel in place.  I have some large rubber bands around. Will try some. thank you.

[Geoff Matson]

Nice fix Larry

[Larry Van Es]

Yes I talked to Jim before posting this. He doesn't see it as a problem. You just need to start out a little faster but can then quickly slow it down to almost nothing. Once you get going you can then gradually speed it up.

[Meredith]

Hi Jim, have taken a photo and sent it to you, will repost on here when I am home (site was down yesterday and didn't have a chance to post it online).  From what I have achieved so far, LH makes up nicely; still having some problems with RH.  I should be more specific in that I am attempting to make RH from RH stocvk thread without going throught the interim process of making LH first - call me lazy!  If anyone finds a stockist of LH threads please give a holler (as I asked first.....  )

 

cheers

 

Pat

Pat,

 

I made a few ropes tonight - using DMC perle - size 5, 8 and 12 - they are already LH threads - so first spin on the ropewalk makes them RH - and very nice too. Too late tonight to take photos - I will do some after work tomorrow. I will also measure and work out their finished sizes.

 

Cordonet and crochet threads appear to be RH - but I will check properly tomorrow - I just looked at one and I have a few different brands.

 

Usually any threads meant for domestic sewing machines are going to be RH - as LH thread is not suitable for sewing machines (will most likely unravel or weaken and break). So the most likely source for LH threads would be something designed to be used by hand.

 

Out of my little stash shown in earlier posts - I will work out which is RH and which is LH threads straight from the spool.

[davec]

Hi Meredith - thanks! I found fly tying silk in diameters smaller than 00 - down to 4-0 and 6-0. It comes in white, and looks like about the right size for scale seizing and serving in 1/48 scale. I will order some and give it a try. Any thoughts on dyeing it? I'm trying to decide whether to dye the silk prior to serving, or wait until after. It seems like if I do it after, it would be a lot easier, and if it works, might help keep the serving in place.

 

Dave

[BANYAN]

Pat,

 

I made a few ropes tonight - using DMC perle - size 5, 8 and 12 - they are already LH threads - so first spin on the ropewalk makes them RH - and very nice too. Too late tonight to take photos - I will do some after work tomorrow. I will also measure and work out their finished sizes.

Great news and very many thanks for that feedback Meredith.  It is great to know there is some LH stock thread out there.  Now to find a source

 

cheers

 

Pat

[Meredith]

Pat - Spotlight will have it...horrid store - but they do have a good range in a couple of other Spotlights I have been to. If no luck there - try a needlework shop of some sort..

[Ulises Victoria]

Update on the machine's performance.

I spent several days making a very long 3 stranded rope with Gutterman quilting thread, to experiment with making a thick rope starting with very thin threads.

Results were disappointing because I kept experimenting with speeds and got a very uneven first LH thin rope.

Bottom line: If you want to make RH-LH-RH-LH etc ropes starting with thin threads... your first rope must be perfect.  ​ Subsequent passes with a defective line will not hide the imperfections (as I thought they would) but will enhance them. 

So at least for me, the easiest and quickest method for  making thicker ropes will be done by using 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 threads per spool. Since I have tried this and actually made a thick LH cable using  first 4 strands per spool and then using this to make a RH 36 strands cable, which came out very nicely, I think for now I will stick to this method.

[Meredith]

I made quite a few tonight too...

I first used the small balls of crochet threads - size 5, size 8 and size 12 threads - Just used a single thread per spool - spun clockwise and all came out nicely.

BUT the strange thing - I have some large balls of the same sizes - and I can make nice rope with 2 and three threads per spool - but blowed if I can make a nice single thread per spool rope. This I cannot explain. They are really both the same initial threads.

 

The Guterman size 12 cotton comes out really nicely - made some LH with single threads per spool - then made these into some RH - quite nice. Like the thread - like the colour

 

I did a final experiment with a size 5 crochet thread and size 8 (both perle cotton) one of each thread on each spool - not a sucess. I was being lazy as its late and I was getting tired. Different thickness threads on the same spool - turns out lumpy Just thought I could wind onto the spool from 2 balls of cotton - instead of measuring and cutting both from the same ball.  ... result a RH rope - not good

 

I also made a 3 strand per spool mix of 2 threads of YSL#100 silk and one thread of King Tut cotton per spool - nice.... ends up a LH rope. Niec and fine.

 

I will try for some photos and measurements in the morning. It will be Saturday - and DAYS off!!

 

 

I am definitley getting the hang of this - and past problems with the rope when I took off the uptake spool with it twisting etc - not a problem tonight.. the final rope stays beautifully together - no un ravelling.. no winding back on itself if you just let it go (I am thinking I was winding some threads the wrong way in my initial trials)...little or no hardening required - I just hand stretched it (very little stretch in any of the above threads). Happier with the results each time I use the rope walk now...