Using chisels for turning brass

[tkay11]

I have a Proxxon DB 250 wood turning lathe, and am comfortable with using the Proxxon set of turning chisels with it. I have just learned to turn cannon with it using hardwood. However, I can see that for really good results I should either use boxwood or brass.

 

If I try to turn brass rod on this lathe, could I use the same chisels, or would I have to grind some down from HSS stock -- or even use watchmakers HSS rod or gravers?

 

I'd be grateful for any advice on this.

 

Thanks

 

Tony

[AntonyUK]

Hi Tony.

Do NOT even try.

It will snatch and take your head off.

It can be used for putting in very fine details with a lock bar.

Turn your cannons out of timber and gilding them with brass.

Someone else is using this idea on the forum ... Not sure who . I will get back to you on who it is.

 

Regards Antony

Edited ... Found the idea on using gilding here.

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php?/topic/300-le-bonhomme-richard-by-jeronimo/page-28

Edited March 12, 2014 by AntonyUK

[tkay11]

Ok, Antony. I think I'll keep my head. Nice idea about the gilding, though. I had seen it, and that was what made me think of the boxwood. My guns are going to be black, so a coat of paint is all I really need. My problem was with the pear wood that I had -- the finish was just too grainy. It's possible that the wood I am using is not quite the right type of pear wood (it was from pen turning blanks sold on eBay), so that's why I'm looking around. Of course it's equally possible that it's my technique that is at fault.

 

I've seen a video of someone using a watchmaker's lathe with a graving tool to turn cannon from brass, so that's what gave me the idea of using my own lathe. I presume it's just the type of cutter that's important -- rather than the lathe itself. But I'm all ears to any advice!

 

Thanks for the very prompt reply!

 

Tony

[dgbot]

What you are talking about is a watchmaking technique called metal turning.  I saw this technique  demonstrated at a NRG conference many years ago.  If done correctly it is perfectly safe.  I have done it many times.  If I was back in Chicago I could post the photos of the setup.  I use my sherline lathe with a watchmakers tool rest.  The first thing you have to do is take some 1/4 and 1/8 tool steel and grind them into engravers.  I also use drill rod as well.  It takes practice and being careful.  Also a low speed.  The engraver must be honed every now and then and I use beeswax as a lubricant.  The secret is to take very light cuts and wear eye protection.

David B

Edited March 12, 2014 by dgbot

[tkay11]

Thanks, David. I'd be very interested in the photos if you can get round to it once you're back in Chicago. I had a feeling that I'd have to end up grinding my own, so if you have any links on how to do that I'd be grateful.

 

I found that even with the wood very light cuts give the best results -- and it was so satisfying I am rather hooked on the idea of doing more lathe work. (I had bought the lathe mainly for yards and masts, but was delighted to find I could do quite fine work on it).

 

Tony

[reklein]

If you are having trouble with grainy -ness on your wooden cannon, try a paste filler on them before priming to fill the grain. You should be able to find the filler at a store that sells caters to the custom furniture business and hobbyists. There are also good filler primers. BILL

[tkay11]

Thanks, Bill. That's a good idea about the paste filler. and primer. I think I'll do that.

 

After a bit of web searching, I found a nice link on the Sherline site about making and using watchmaker's gravers. It's at http://www.sherline.com/gravers.htm. It links to a page that shows how to use the Sherline T-rest with a graver.

 

Unfortunately, though, it looks as though the business of buying a bench grinder and a stone to do all the sharpening and shaping required seems to put this idea out of my reach. I think I'll be sticking to the boxwood.

 

Tony

Edited March 12, 2014 by tkay11

[dgbot]

I found the photos  here they are.  I wish I took phots of my setup but I never did.

David B

[tkay11]

Thanks, David. They look like the tools suggested at the Sherline site for making by hand. Do you use a bench grinder to sharpen them, or do you use something like Wet & Dry paper glued to a smooth surface (as in the Scary Sharp method)?

 

Tony

[NMBROOK]

Hi Tony

 

If your cannons are going to be black,why not turn them from Ebony?workshopheaven sell billets that can be cut down to fit in the 4 jaw chuck.You will be able to polish this wood to an extremely fine finish.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[tkay11]

Hmm. Thanks, Nigel. I've been looking at Workshop Heaven for the boxwood. I've also been thinking of Castello Boxwood. I hadn't considered ebony, but it's another good idea for me to consider. Isn't ebony dust rather poisonous? Or am I being over-cautious? I could easily order boxwood and ebony to see how I got on with them.

 

Tony

[dgbot]

Ebony turns but it is a very messy wood you would be spending have your day cleaning up the mess.  I have seen cannons turned using maple and dogwood.  Then the barrel is stained or painted black.  As for the engravers.  Iused a bench grinder to get the basis shape then I made a jig for the angle and proceeded to hone them on a hard arkensaw with plenty of oil. You can use waterstones diamond etc. The secret is the angle of the honing it has be the same at all times.

David B

[NMBROOK]

Hi Tony

Ebony dust is rather unpleasant,however because the wood is oily it does not become airborne like regular dust,it tends to 'clump' and sit around local to where you are working.I personally find it a pleasure to work with.I have sawn it,machined it and carved it,the only reason it is messy is because it is black and you can see it,it doesn't create any more dust than regular timber.

 

Kind Regards

 

Nigel

[tkay11]

Thanks for the advice and suggestions, David and Nigel. I've ordered ebony along with the boxwood and will be interested to see how it all turns out. I'll keep the ideas about brass turning until a future date when I can treat myself to a bench grinder. In any case, it's always good to improve basic skills at the wood lathe to the point at which I can be satisfied with the skill.

 

Tony

[jud]

People have been turning wood, brass and iron on primitive lathes using hand tools for a very long time. They did it that way because there was nothing better. they did good enough work to build better machines. You can do it if you keep your tool rest close to the work and use tools with long handles, the illustrations I have seen showed tools about 3 feet long and  hand or foot power was used to turn the stock, all had fly wheels to smooth out the turning. So If you want to turn your cannons out of brass using hand chisels you can do it but I would recommend that you use hand power to turn the work or a powered device that is weak and easily stopped.

jud

[tkay11]

Very interesting comment, Jud. I note that watchmakers lathes can be powered in a number of different ways -- which would allow for the very slow turning speeds. My Proxxon turns at 1,000 rpm at its slowest speed, so that looks as though it would be far too fast.

 

As a matter of interest, why the long handles (3ft)?

 

Tony

[dgbot]

My Sherline can go down to 75 if I wish it. However over the years I have sped it up to 1000. This takes practice and a light touch. Once mastou hered you will be doing it alot. As for cannons if you have to turn several of them would it be easier and quicker to cast them.

David B

[tkay11]

Yes, thanks, David. The Sherline sounds like a great machine from all that I have heard on the forum. I had been thinking of casting them once I'd managed to make a good master (even though there are only 8 on the Sherbourne). That's yet another on the long list of skills I am eager to learn.

 

Tony

[jud]

Long handles and a short fulcrum for mechanical advantage so you could control the cutting end better and not have the tool torn out of your hands or just chatter instead of cutting.

jud

[tkay11]

Makes sense, Jud. Thanks.

 

I suppose you'd need long arms as well. My arms are only about 60cm long and I need to keep my eyes fairly near the workpiece to make sure i can see what's happening down there. But I suppose the hands wouldn't have to go all the way to the end of the handle. Joking aside, I get the message. Mechanical advantage and control!

 

Tony

[dgbot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHqfBgBp8vg

Here is a you tube link for converting ndrill rod the principal will be the same using 1/4 and 1/8 tool steel.

This link is for turning a cannon barrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0VXYBc6PPQ

David B

Edited March 12, 2014 by dgbot

[tkay11]

Thanks, David. Takes a bit of the mystery out of grinding the tools. I'd seen exactly that second video about turning a cannon and that was what gave me the idea to try it on my lathe.

 

Do you have any idea of the speed he was using on the lathe? It seemed quite fast to me.

 

I was also thinking that the hand-held watchmakers gravers I've seen on eBay might be already sharpened and so give me an idea of how to use them. Would that be right?

 

Tony

[dgbot]

My biggest complaint on the video was he was using the tool bit without insering it into a handle making it longer and safer to work with. The speed is just fine. I have not seen the engravers you are talking about. Go ahead and buy them and test them out. They will have to be resharpend and honed to work properly. My advice would be to practice basic turning before you start any project. Using an optivisor or safety glasses to protect your eyes.

David B

[tkay11]

Yes, indeed, David. Good advice re practice and safety. I've been using mask and safety glasses, and I'll continue the carefulness once I get to metal.

 

Thanks

 

Tony

[trail guy]

On your wooden turnings, once you have the shape/stain where you want it, then use pen turning polishes to shine it up. I have put some killer shines on turned wooden pens with Penn State Industries' supplies: pennstateind.com

 

Also look at their pen turning blanks for possible uses. Thinking outside the box - look at the Volcanic Ash Black Lava as a possibility. Hope this helps...

[tkay11]

Thanks for the tips, Trailguy. Yes, pen turning blanks are useful -- I've been using pear and apple blanks from eBay to learn how to work with these woods. I hadn't known about Volcanic Ash Black Lava, so I'll have a look for suppliers here in the UK. I like the idea about the polish.

 

Tony

[dgbot]

The nice thing about pen blanks is you can find wood and synthetics that can simulate many things.

David B

[mtaylor]

Tony,

 

A couple of thoughts from outside the box....  1)  Use files instead of a cutting tool.  2) If you insist or need to make a cutting tool, get a small bench grinding stone and mandrel and use the lathe chuck. 

[tkay11]

Those are interesting and nice ideas, Mark. I've already been using files with the wood, but hadn't thought of using them exclusively. I'll look into grinding stones and mandrels, but if the files work, then so much the better. In fact I have very small grinding wheels with my Proxxon drill which I used for tiny chisels (until I found the Scary Sharp method), but I should imagine they are far too small and underpowered for gravers.

 

Thank you very much!

 

Tony

[dgbot]

I use a bench grinder because I have one. I have also used a dremel and a foredom with small grinding wheels and cutoff discs. I use the engravers but have a set of needle files that I use as well. Sometimes I only use files. The nice thing about brass is you can use many things. I have also used sanding for polishing and final shaping.

David B