Help with Hull on Artesania latina hms bounty's jolly boat

[bostonerin]

Hi everyone - 

 

I am relatively new to ship building and have run into a problem/question.

 

I am building Artesania Latina HMS Bounty Jolly Boat and am confused how to incorporate the Keel. I've attached some pictures of my progress.

 

I have already decided that I will do a second layer of planking and therefore decided to use some putty to fill in some gaps in the planking rather than additional small pieces of wood. As I was sanding down the bow, I decided to test the fit of the keel piece and noticed that the inner curve of the keel does not match the curve of the hull-- at all!  Since I already was going to second plank, should i fill this huge gap with putty? should I do something else? I am really confused and would love some guidance.

Thanks,
Erin

[Beef Wellington]

Erin, first off, welcome to MSW!  I'd suggest you start a build log as thats by far the best way to get help, advice and encouragement from builders who are familiar with this kit.

 

I'd also suggest searching on the site for some similar logs, heres at least one.  http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/5024-hms-bounty-jolly-boat-by-cannon-fodder-artesania-latina-scale-125-first-wooden-ship-build-small/#entry144948

 

I'm not familiar with the kit, but it looks like you planking at the bow should have terminated in a nice smooth curve against a keel/stem similar to the piece you are holding.  It sounds dramatic, and I hate to say it, but you may be better of removing the planking you've completed so far and redoing it.  Using putty would be futile as the shape of the final hull would be very odd indeed.  I'm sure you are eager to proceed, but I think you will get a much more satisfactory result that you will feel good about.

 

Good luck!

Edited October 28, 2014 by Beef Wellington

[bostonerin]

Thanks for the reply. I really didn't want to redo the planking but maybe I should. Thanks.

[Everest]

I think Beef Wellington is right. There is a wealth of information on here but you have to dig it out. 

 At the top of the web site page, NRG"S MODEL SHIP WORLD just to the iright of that heading there is The Nautical Research Guild home Page. Click on that.Scroll to ship modeling resources.Scroll down to Ship Modeling Database of Articles. Click onFraming and Planking. 

 Don't let the number of chapters throw you. There is a lot of info there' all of which you may not need to use.but there are some gems in there that you can use

 You can do it. Take your time, but most of all ENJOY YOURSELF.

[figuerres]

I have done that kit, my profile pick is a photo of that. I will upload some photos later but it does look as if something went wrong.

the curve of the bow should "fit" the bow keel.   with the upside down pictures I can't say for sure but it looks as if the top of your planking is not right.

most ships and boats should have a shape almost like a saddle, a bit of pulling up at the bow and at the stern.

one of the terms that describe an old hull is "Hogging" which I read as starting to get a shape like the back of a hog - higher in the middle than the ends.

 

also the "Notch" on the top end of the bow should be at the same level as the top board of the hull where the oar notches are.

 

also be a care full with sanding as this is a thin hull.   if you can even get a bunch of strip wood and copy the hull ribs and practice planking before you re-plank the actual model.  I am still learning how to get this right, it's a bit tricky, the more times you try it the better you will get.

[catopower]

Hi Erin,

 

I've built a few Artesania Latina kits and based on those and what you show in your photos, it looks like all that probably happened was that you ran the planks past the bow instead of of simply up to the edge of the bow, as Jason pointed out.

 

Assuming the framing is okay, you should be able to just trim/sand the excess planking off. As you do, you'll start to see the edge of that internal keel piece show through. By the time you uncover the whole edge and trim/sand the planking back, you should find that the curve of the bow will match that keel piece your holding in the photos.

 

The kit probably includes thin strips of mahogany veneer for the second layer of planking, so you don't have to worry too much about how the planking looks, but you do want it to be smooth.

 

Good luck on your build. It's your first, so I wouldn't sweat it too much. Just do what you can  and learn from it and, most importantly, enjoy the build!

 

Clare

[figuerres]

here is a photo from my model.

 

 

well it will be if the darn system will work....

Edited November 11, 2014 by figuerres

[figuerres]

one more try...

[mfh]

Hi Everyone,

                    like the OP, I'm a novice building the Jolly Boat of HMS Bounty and while I don't have a concrete problem there is something in the instructions that puzzles me and I'm hoping one of the experts here can clarify something for me.

 

As an ex IT person I have a habit before I start anything of studying the instructions (manual) carefully to ensure I have everything to hand so to speak and have an idea of what I'm going to need to do. 

 

My problem? well in the parts listing,  in each section you have 7 different languages, I speak three of them and can get by in another two, the columns in the listing are :- Ref, Description,  Quantity, Size, Material, the languages are Spanish, English, French, German, Italian, Portuguese and Dutch 

 

The problem? well in Ref 15 the first four languages have under Quantity  4 pieces whereas the final three languages have quantity 1, in Ref 16 the first four have quantity 2 whereas the last three have quantity 1, in Ref 17 the first four quantity 6, the last three quantity 1, in Ref 19 first four quantity 2 pieces the last three quantity 1.

 

I was going to stop at Ref 19 but further reading shows discrepancies Ref 61 where the situation ifs reversed i.e the first 4 languages have quantity 1 whereas the last 3 have quantity 2, in Ref 69 we come back to first four having quantity 4 and the last three have quantity 2 and so it goes, suffice to say apart from the above mentioned Ref's with discrepancies the same situation is found in Ref's 70, 72,79, 80,81,82,83,85,86,88,89.

 

For the life of me I cannot imagine why Italian, Portuguese and Dutch have either less pieces or more pieces in different sections I also noted that the Material for these languages is frequently Manzonia,  the others are African Walnut.

 

I'd really appreciate it if someone could please cast any light on this issue, even if it is to tell me I'm over analysing the situation :-) 

 

My apologies if the custom on this site is to always start new threads rather than bumping old ones 

 

 

 

[figuerres]

Hi Everyone,

                    like the OP, I'm a novice building the Jolly Boat of HMS Bounty and while I don't have a concrete problem there is something in the instructions that puzzles me and I'm hoping one of the experts here can clarify something for me.

 

As an ex IT person I have a habit before I start anything of studying the instructions (manual) carefully to ensure I have everything to hand so to speak and have an idea of what I'm going to need to do. 

 

My problem? well in the parts listing,  in each section you have 7 different languages, I speak three of them and can get by in another two, the columns in the listing are :- Ref, Description,  Quantity, Size, Material, the languages are Spanish, English, French, German, Italian, Portuguese and Dutch 

 

The problem? well in Ref 15 the first four languages have under Quantity  4 pieces whereas the final three languages have quantity 1, in Ref 16 the first four have quantity 2 whereas the last three have quantity 1, in Ref 17 the first four quantity 6, the last three quantity 1, in Ref 19 first four quantity 2 pieces the last three quantity 1.

 

I was going to stop at Ref 19 but further reading shows discrepancies Ref 61 where the situation ifs reversed i.e the first 4 languages have quantity 1 whereas the last 3 have quantity 2, in Ref 69 we come back to first four having quantity 4 and the last three have quantity 2 and so it goes, suffice to say apart from the above mentioned Ref's with discrepancies the same situation is found in Ref's 70, 72,79, 80,81,82,83,85,86,88,89.

 

For the life of me I cannot imagine why Italian, Portuguese and Dutch have either less pieces or more pieces in different sections I also noted that the Material for these languages is frequently Manzonia,  the others are African Walnut.

 

I'd really appreciate it if someone could please cast any light on this issue, even if it is to tell me I'm over analysing the situation :-) 

 

My apologies if the custom on this site is to always start new threads rather than bumping old ones 

 

LOL, a *LOT* of documentation for kit models and many other things - like some computer stuff gets really bad docs.

they hire out the transaltions and they will often have many small errors depending on what the first language was and how it is re-translated by different people who may not be really qualified to do that job.

 

if you really want to get it right just view the doc as a general guide, honestly i think you need to build at least two or three ships before you start to really understand them and then you will need more from the blueprints than from any manual.

[John Allen]

Erin,

 

Do not be discouraged, all of us have had to redo a step that turned out awry. I've had some really bad ones but it really was a good experience after doing it again especially if it was time consuming you are sure never to make that mistake again, maybe

[mfh]

@ Figuerre

Thanks for the reply as an ex IT person I thought that might be the answer so it's nice to have it confirmed 

[jollyroger]

Hi Everyone,

                    like the OP, I'm a novice building the Jolly Boat of HMS Bounty and while I don't have a concrete problem there is something in the instructions that puzzles me and I'm hoping one of the experts here can clarify something for me.

 

As an ex IT person I have a habit before I start anything of studying the instructions (manual) carefully to ensure I have everything to hand so to speak and have an idea of what I'm going to need to do. 

 

My problem? well in the parts listing,  in each section you have 7 different languages, I speak three of them and can get by in another two, the columns in the listing are :- Ref, Description,  Quantity, Size, Material, the languages are Spanish, English, French, German, Italian, Portuguese and Dutch 

 

The problem? well in Ref 15 the first four languages have under Quantity  4 pieces whereas the final three languages have quantity 1, in Ref 16 the first four have quantity 2 whereas the last three have quantity 1, in Ref 17 the first four quantity 6, the last three quantity 1, in Ref 19 first four quantity 2 pieces the last three quantity 1.

 

I was going to stop at Ref 19 but further reading shows discrepancies Ref 61 where the situation ifs reversed i.e the first 4 languages have quantity 1 whereas the last 3 have quantity 2, in Ref 69 we come back to first four having quantity 4 and the last three have quantity 2 and so it goes, suffice to say apart from the above mentioned Ref's with discrepancies the same situation is found in Ref's 70, 72,79, 80,81,82,83,85,86,88,89.

 

For the life of me I cannot imagine why Italian, Portuguese and Dutch have either less pieces or more pieces in different sections I also noted that the Material for these languages is frequently Manzonia,  the others are African Walnut.

 

I'd really appreciate it if someone could please cast any light on this issue, even if it is to tell me I'm over analysing the situation :-) 

 

My apologies if the custom on this site is to always start new threads rather than bumping old ones 

mfh, Did you get any answers on the parts list question? I am attempting to build the AL H.M.S Bounty 1:48. I can't understand the parts list. Mine is only in english. I can't match up the parts list and pictures with the various types of planks and strakes. I've used a digital caliper to attempt to measure and match but not having any success.

For example The parts list shows:

No.    Description                                     Qty                  Measurements   Material

                                                                                        in mm.

17      Planking strakes/hatch 1st deck    11                    0,6x5x30             Mukali

20     Hold Planking                                  26                   1.5x5x155           African Walnut

41     Hull planking                                    44                   1,5x5x730          African Walnut

46     Gunwales outer planking                 11                    1,5x7x730         Sapelia

 

I believe the quantity refers to the number needed of that particular part no./length. Where the measurement for item no. 17 would be .6 mm x 5 mm and 30 mm long. Each plank appears to be 730 mm total length but they are telling me I need to cut to 30 mm length and use 11 pieces? 

 

Nothing was labeled and sorted to determine which planks are which.

 

Any help?

[mfh]

Hi jollyroger,

                   no I'm sorry I did not get any further info I just went ahead and started building, then unfortunately real life intervened and I had to stop for awhile like many other I guess I got as far as the planking so its sitting on top of my bookcase at the moment.  As summer is just round the corner I guess it will be next Autumn before I start doing it again I think the best advice I can give (and I'm a total novice) is experiment with all the pieces ! 

 

PS Yes I do believe you need to cut the planking 

[jhearl]

Jollyroger -

 

Maybe I can help with your confusion about the raw materials. It can be hard, with European kits, to identify one wood versus another. In general, African Walnut is dark, Mukali is light in color, and Sapele may be in between the two. There is a pretty decent database of woods that has pictures located here - http://www.wood-database.com/ Between similar-colored woods, you may have to rely on the overall dimensions (width and thickness) to tell them apart. That site I mentioned above doesn't list Mukali, but you can do a Google image search for it to find examples.

 

As to the lengths, you want to think about what they are used for. For example, you list "hold planking" at 155mm and "hull planking" at 730mm. What they are saying here is that you'll need 26 pieces, each 155mm long, to plank the hold. Since all the planking material is 730mm long, you'll need to cut those hold planks to length. Some may not wind up being a full 155mm long but none will be longer than that because of the small area you're planking. For the outside of the hull, on the other hand, they're telling you that you may need some long planks so you're starting out with the ones that are 730mm long. You will, of course, have to cut some of them shorter as you proceed. In other words, if they show you a length that is shorter than the overall length of the raw material, they expect you to cut it to the length they list.

 

This, of course, can make it difficult to check the contents of a kit. For example, you can only get four 155mm planks out of a 730mm length of raw stock and then you'll have a 110mm (or so) piece left over. That might be long enough to use in some other area or it may wind up just becoming scrap. Most kit manufacturers give you more wood than you should need. But if you have just opened the kit and you see a bunch of 730mm long pieces of wood, it may not occur to you to think about how many 155mm pieces that will make. Since the list shows you'll need 26 planks for the hold, that means if you can get 4 of those planks from each long strip, you'll need 7 long strips. Plus, you'll need 44 strips of the same dimension wood for the hull planking, so you should have at least 51 strips of that raw material. Likely you will have more.

 

I hope that helps to clear up your confusion a bit.

 

Cheers -

John

[jollyroger]

Jollyroger -

 

Maybe I can help with your confusion about the raw materials. It can be hard, with European kits, to identify one wood versus another. In general, African Walnut is dark, Mukali is light in color, and Sapele may be in between the two. There is a pretty decent database of woods that has pictures located here - http://www.wood-database.com/ Between similar-colored woods, you may have to rely on the overall dimensions (width and thickness) to tell them apart. That site I mentioned above doesn't list Mukali, but you can do a Google image search for it to find examples.

 

As to the lengths, you want to think about what they are used for. For example, you list "hold planking" at 155mm and "hull planking" at 730mm. What they are saying here is that you'll need 26 pieces, each 155mm long, to plank the hold. Since all the planking material is 730mm long, you'll need to cut those hold planks to length. Some may not wind up being a full 155mm long but none will be longer than that because of the small area you're planking. For the outside of the hull, on the other hand, they're telling you that you may need some long planks so you're starting out with the ones that are 730mm long. You will, of course, have to cut some of them shorter as you proceed. In other words, if they show you a length that is shorter than the overall length of the raw material, they expect you to cut it to the length they list.

 

This, of course, can make it difficult to check the contents of a kit. For example, you can only get four 155mm planks out of a 730mm length of raw stock and then you'll have a 110mm (or so) piece left over. That might be long enough to use in some other area or it may wind up just becoming scrap. Most kit manufacturers give you more wood than you should need. But if you have just opened the kit and you see a bunch of 730mm long pieces of wood, it may not occur to you to think about how many 155mm pieces that will make. Since the list shows you'll need 26 planks for the hold, that means if you can get 4 of those planks from each long strip, you'll need 7 long strips. Plus, you'll need 44 strips of the same dimension wood for the hull planking, so you should have at least 51 strips of that raw material. Likely you will have more.

 

I hope that helps to clear up your confusion a bit.

 

Cheers -

John

Thanks John! I was going to search online for pictures of wood. The link you attached is a big help.

[JerseyCity Frankie]

In my opinion I don't think it would be too "wrong" to cut a new stem piece that fits your existing bow area. Purists MAY fault you for altering the profile of the hull, but on the other hand those same purist may be unable to vouch for the accuracy of the boats shape as presented by your kit in the first place.

So what I'm suggesting is that you trace the profile of the bow you have made and cut a pice of wood that exactly matches the kit supplied part in all respects accept the yours will be bent at the new angle your boat has now. This way you don't go down the rabbit hole of trying to fix where each and every plank terminates at the bow- you keep all that just as it is. And as a side benefit you will pick up some of the skills that are part of the foundation of wood ship modeling: making parts to fit your model.

Edited February 20, 2017 by JerseyCity Frankie