JohnE

Reminded of a story. A Friday nite beercan from Rush Creek to Chandler's Landing and back. It was dusk, and flat. We had rounded and were ghosting with the kite in 'maybe' 3-4 knots. Upwind comes a Harmony 24 who just dropped her genoa. A young boy was on the bow, covered with lines and draped with the sail. It was a silent kind of evening, and over the water floats this plaintive little voice saying "Daddy .. what the sh*t do I do now?"
 
Thus it is with first time anything. I appreciate and agree with Chris' cautionary tale. However, I think that we, as a community, might extend the paradigm a bit. One doesn't tell a landsman that he is on the fore topmast. It takes time and help (yes, and training) to get anywhere in an area as complex as this can be. Some of our threads are populated by people that are the equivalent of Olympic, America's Cup, or Volvo champions. Pity the young foredeck monkey.
 
Can we make a separate space for first-time, intermediate, modellers, where they can post and ask, and we can help and comment, without their being intimidated by competing with some of our member's exquisiteness? I know this is not politically correct, and has implications for being on 'the second tier', but someone who is truly interested in the 'hobby' and wants to learn and grow, may find it useful.
 
Just saying.
 
Ciao. John

Reminded of a story. A Friday nite beercan from Rush Creek to Chandler's Landing and back. It was dusk, and flat. We had rounded and were ghosting with the kite in 'maybe' 3-4 knots. Upwind comes a Harmony 24 who just dropped her genoa. A young boy was on the bow, covered with lines and draped with the sail. It was a silent kind of evening, and over the water floats this plaintive little voice saying "Daddy .. what the sh*t do I do now?"
 
Thus it is with first time anything. I appreciate and agree with Chris' cautionary tale. However, I think that we, as a community, might extend the paradigm a bit. One doesn't tell a landsman that he is on the fore topmast. It takes time and help (yes, and training) to get anywhere in an area as complex as this can be. Some of our threads are populated by people that are the equivalent of Olympic, America's Cup, or Volvo champions. Pity the young foredeck monkey.
 
Can we make a separate space for first-time, intermediate, modellers, where they can post and ask, and we can help and comment, without their being intimidated by competing with some of our member's exquisiteness? I know this is not politically correct, and has implications for being on 'the second tier', but someone who is truly interested in the 'hobby' and wants to learn and grow, may find it useful.
 
Just saying.
 
Ciao. John

Found some very interesting things in the collection of documents my friend got access to at Service historique de la Défense. Thought I might share my impressions. Now these are strictly my impressions and interpretations. Some of my conclusions are unsupported by anything other than opinion. Any errors are mine alone.
 
France, seemingly, had rather large resources of ship construction woods. She also had access to materials from a great deal of the rest continent (at least after 1806). Having access to materials was one thing, but cutting it out, getting it to the shipyards, seasoning it, and slicing it up for use, was another.
 
St Malo built several major vessels for the French Navy, and certainly can’t be considered tyros, but when St Malo got the contract for Eurydice (the first Pallas class it would build), it was accompanied by a note instructing the yard to ensure the ways were ‘aligned’ properly. The terminology is a bit obscure, but I read it as ‘polar alignment’, meaning North/South.
 
Aligning the shipway North/South means the sun strikes both sides equally and affects the port and starboard timbers the same, so they will shrink the same, over time, and the right and left halves will be relative duplicates. Shrinking one side with respect to the other makes for a hull that is considered ‘cranky’; one that performs different on one board from the other.
 
So, this leads me to believe that a lot of the timbers used during the Empire period were pretty green. Well dried, salted, seasoned, timbers would not be so susceptible to simple weathering. Radiational heating, affecting timbers, suggests out-gassing and internal volumetric expansion/contraction; things that suggest green timber.
 
Would love to hear from someone who knows more about this aspect of French shipbuilding.
 
Ciao. John
 
 

My friend, they used logarithms. They memorized the table of logs. A modern sliderule is nothing but a replacement for memorization. They used pen/pencil, paper, and their brains, along with a book of tables, if necessary.
 
This was the age of d'Alembert, Bernouli, Euler, Fourier, Laplace, Lagrange, Gauss, Rolle, and a bit earlier Newton, Descartes, and Fermat. Mathemeticians that we moderns are, frankly, unable to comprehend without an "advanced" degree; and it took 358 years to solve Fermat's last, the proof of which he declined to put in the margin because it was a 'bit' too long.
 
Don't ever make the mistake of thinking these people weren't "accurate" just because they didn't have computers or Exel. They had more practical math sense than I could ever hope to have, and I'm a physicist and naval architect.
 
John

Hi Gaetan,
 
I live on the Gulf coast in Alabama, so humidity changes are very large. It really messes with the guitars. I use a humidifier and a dehumidifier to keep things on a relatively even keel (ha, ha). I don't try to climate control, just keep the changes from being too radical. Might help le vaisseau.
 
Love the work on the rablure.
 
John

Wonderful pictures and outstanding work. Prekrasan !!
 
ciao
John

Thank you both, I much prefer the smaller warships.
 Here is a couple of Minesweeping Trawlers
Pencil sketch Trawler 'United Boys and 'Bervie Braes'
10 X 7 inches

This was inspired by Rudyard Kipling's poem about minesweepers in WW1
 
  Mine sweepers courtesy Of Mr Kipling 



DAWN OFF the Foreland - the young flood making
Jumbled and short and steep - 
Black in the hollows and bright where it's breaking -
Awkward water to sweep.
"Mines reported in the fairway,
"Warn all traffic and detain.
" 'Sent up Unity, Claribel, Assyrian, Stormcock, and Golden Gain." 

Noon off the Foreland - the first ebb making 
Lumpy and strong in the bight.
Boom after boom, and the golf-hut shaking 
And the jackdaws wild with fright !
"Mines located in the fairway,
"Boats now working up the chain,
"Sweepers - Unity, Claribel, Assyrian, Stormcock, and Golden Gain." 

Dusk off the Foreland - the last light going 
And the traffic crowding through,
And five damned trawlers with their syreens blowing 
Heading the whole review !
"Sweep completed in the fairway.
"No more mines remain.
" 'Sent back Unity, Claribel, Assyrian, Stormcock, and Golden Gain."

Oh, yes Sir, you have been to sea and obviously love her as much as the ships. Your paintings are evocative and profoundly moving in many ways. Thank you for sharing them. You have created a new admirer and customer. I very like your appreciation of service craft and the oft neglected, lonesome and forlorn, patrol boats. My heart has a warm place for Castle class trawlers.
 
John
 
 

Thanks for the likes and comments...
 
It's been too long since this was updated... so this is a short update about a pesky, self-induced problem.
 
Between doing things around the house and yard, numerous medical visits for both Janet and myself and trying to sort my brain out and what's what, I've been pounding my head over a problem.   If we go way back to cutting out the frames, I put some "tits" on the frames to allow for positive placement of the deck clamps (I think that's right... brain fart).  But.. I've forgot how I was going to deal with them when I did the inner hull planking.   My bad... and my notes are no help.   
 
Here's one frame.. those "tits" are highlighted by the red arrows.

 
After much angst, occasionally thinking of just burning her in the stocks, I started to hand sand them with a thin piece of scrap sanding stick, I punted.   The sanding stick was taking forever and I wasn't pleased with the lack of control and also damage from my fat fingers.   
 
Here's the area I was dealing with... you can see a couple of the offending pieces highlighted in red.

 
What I finally came up with is the below tool..  a felt buffing piece with some sticky-back sandpaper attached. I'm using my mini engraving tool as it's small, lightweight, and the lowest speed is a good 3000 RPM less than a Dremel.   It seems to be doing the job.   Once I've got the sanding done, I'll finish the planking.
 

 
Anyway, I'm still at this and hope to have another update as soon as time permits.    

Oh, yes Sir, you have been to sea and obviously love her as much as the ships. Your paintings are evocative and profoundly moving in many ways. Thank you for sharing them. You have created a new admirer and customer. I very like your appreciation of service craft and the oft neglected, lonesome and forlorn, patrol boats. My heart has a warm place for Castle class trawlers.
 
John
 
 

Hey Group,
 
I am excited to announce my next project - a fully framed build of the French Frigate La Renommee in classic 1/48 scale.  After a couple of false starts (Le Gros Ventre in 1/36th and a 74 in 1/48 - I have deleted those logs) I have fallen in love with this ship.  This will be a 6500 hour plus build as I intend to mast and fully rig her.  
 
I have spent several years amassing the amount of tools necessary not to mention building out a workshop to handle a project of this degree.  The reason I chose her over Le Gros Ventre and the 74 (I love both of these ships) is she embodies the best elements of French Naval architecture (extreme tumblehome, elegant sculptures, inner oblique planking and racy lines) and is scalable for a first fully framed build.   Boudriot's Monograph of La Renommee landed last week (it took less than a week from when I placed the order from France to arrive at my door) and its spectacular.  The figurehead and stern is intimidating and right now I am by no means a "carver".  But this is a skill I want to master - and done right, in my opinion La Renommee's sculptures are some of the most beautiful in all of naval architecture.  
 
For reference I have volumes 1-3 of Boudriots 74 Gun Ship Series and David A's The Fully Framed Ship Series for "how to" techniques.    
 
My goal is to build the construction board/site and begin work on the keel by year end.  Stay tuned....

Thank you John, you are very kind.
here is HM Trawler North Coates, if I remember right she was a castle class. A very successful design more than 150 built.
Jim 

Oh, yes Sir, you have been to sea and obviously love her as much as the ships. Your paintings are evocative and profoundly moving in many ways. Thank you for sharing them. You have created a new admirer and customer. I very like your appreciation of service craft and the oft neglected, lonesome and forlorn, patrol boats. My heart has a warm place for Castle class trawlers.
 
John
 
 

Oh, yes Sir, you have been to sea and obviously love her as much as the ships. Your paintings are evocative and profoundly moving in many ways. Thank you for sharing them. You have created a new admirer and customer. I very like your appreciation of service craft and the oft neglected, lonesome and forlorn, patrol boats. My heart has a warm place for Castle class trawlers.
 
John
 
 

Oh, yes Sir, you have been to sea and obviously love her as much as the ships. Your paintings are evocative and profoundly moving in many ways. Thank you for sharing them. You have created a new admirer and customer. I very like your appreciation of service craft and the oft neglected, lonesome and forlorn, patrol boats. My heart has a warm place for Castle class trawlers.
 
John
 
 

Oh, yes Sir, you have been to sea and obviously love her as much as the ships. Your paintings are evocative and profoundly moving in many ways. Thank you for sharing them. You have created a new admirer and customer. I very like your appreciation of service craft and the oft neglected, lonesome and forlorn, patrol boats. My heart has a warm place for Castle class trawlers.
 
John
 
 

The latest in the series by Rif Winfield and company has just been published. If you liked the others (and I did) you will like this one too. No need for a review because it's just like the others. A quality volume filled with plans and illustrations. I like all of these books because if the particular plan I am working with is missing some detail I can look at others and at least see what was common at the time. So... if you want the best reference for the French navy short of living across the street from the Musee de la Marine this is it.
 
 
US Naval Institute has it for cheaper than anywhere else that I could find if that's an issue.

Did this one this afternoon
wanderers
Albatross and Square rigger in the South Atlantic 
W/C 23" X 12" 

Something else that happened is I was able to import quarter-beam and mid-beam lines into the MATLAB hydro program and evaluate the curves for performance. Turns out that Jacques-Noël knew exactly what he was doing. They fall within acceptable modern parameters. Howard Chapelle and Merritt Edson would approve.
 
It also becomes apparent why French ships (although can only speak to Sané types) were so sensitive to trim in order to get most out of their performance regime. The lines purty near say outright that if they have a bit too much load drag, or sailed with a squat, they will suffer and become sluggish, like a lovely lady on the arm of a boor.
 
The kicker comes from Sané's famous 6 inch stretch after Villemaurin's sail trials in the historical Cornélie. Villemaurin noted stern trim sensitivity in great detail, load trimming both up and down, altering mast rake, and the sail suite. It told a lot to Sané. All of the stretch was put from Frame VII aft. Frame VII stayed where it was in the Venus (Hébé) and Virginie series. Frame VIII moved 3 inches farther aft from Frame VII and the aft perpendicular moved 3 inches farther back from Frame VIII. This centers the majority of the stretch smack dab in the region where the quarter buttock crosses the load waterline and stretches out the buttock lines in this area so they are considerably straighter.
 
I was amazed at what a simple 6 inches could do, until I realized that the difference between the "right" design curves and my "wrong" ones were the matter one inch or less, back and forth, up or down. Whoda thunk?
 
Wonder what Jacques-Noël would have done with access to a CAD program. I shiver to think.
 
Ciao. John

Thanks Druxey, that's nice to know. Speaking of translations ... had to do quite a bit of Vial du Clairbois for the lovely Cornélie.
 
The compound curvatures of the fashion frame (estain) and the filling transoms have always been quite painful to get right. The main reason is no one has done those for a Sané design before, so there is nothing to use as a guide or make intelligent judgments from. The British didn't take off enough lines in the right places to provide a suitable guide, and even the lines in the Chaumont Papers are way too few and far-between, besides being completely unidentified. Woof! Everything was a guestimate, and wrong, as it turns out. I had to go back to the well.
 
Vial has a section on this. Very informative, but superficial, and lacking in the very details that I needed for a proper understanding. Then I just happened to open Vol II. I had previously assumed Tome II was simply an 1805 retitling and reprint of Tome I with some additions. Wrogn again! I was fooled by the totally similar table of contents. Turns out that Tome II begins where Tome I leaves off. Seems that Tome I is the undergrad book having all the basics and sufficient gloss to get one started. Tome II, however, is the graduate level "design and construction theory" course book. Every section begins with the assumption you have Tome I open to the appropriate place and the Tome I drawings are at hand. Then it launches into detail ... thought I would have a heart attack! Woof!
 
All right! Design the darn things from scratch! This is better than buttermilk pancakes! So I did. And it worked. And it didn't just work, the lines flowed directly into those of the well documented sections from Sané's devis. My estain was a bit off in body plan and profile views, and the waterlines and buttock/bow lines behind the estain needed considerable adjustment. Before, they were smooth, but arbitrary. Always subject to tweaking back-and-forth depending on which curve I started with - body, waterline, diagonal, ...
 
Finally, after much sturm, drang und todesangst, I really think I have an understanding of French stern construction. Some pics. Waterlines (level lines) just flat look good. Not just that, but they grid out such that each level-line point projects right smack dab where it is supposed to on the profile buttocks and body plan, and arsey-versey.
 
All this was the basis of the loft of the filling transoms. Easy peasy once the surface was completely defined.

Hi Gaetan,
 
I live on the Gulf coast in Alabama, so humidity changes are very large. It really messes with the guitars. I use a humidifier and a dehumidifier to keep things on a relatively even keel (ha, ha). I don't try to climate control, just keep the changes from being too radical. Might help le vaisseau.
 
Love the work on the rablure.
 
John

Hi Gaetan,
 
I live on the Gulf coast in Alabama, so humidity changes are very large. It really messes with the guitars. I use a humidifier and a dehumidifier to keep things on a relatively even keel (ha, ha). I don't try to climate control, just keep the changes from being too radical. Might help le vaisseau.
 
Love the work on the rablure.
 
John

Thanks all. Have to admit that I had some frustrating periods, but once the lights came on the journey became a lot of fun. Only wish I had known this sooner when poor Mark was having such problems with the stern of his Licorne.
 
Herask and Bava are both encouraging me to get up to speed in Blender so I can do visualizations in 3D. They are really helping me focus the learning curve. The ability to see a complex piece of wood and how it fits with the other pieces, before I pull out the saw, will be I think invaluable.
 
Ciao. John

Something else that happened is I was able to import quarter-beam and mid-beam lines into the MATLAB hydro program and evaluate the curves for performance. Turns out that Jacques-Noël knew exactly what he was doing. They fall within acceptable modern parameters. Howard Chapelle and Merritt Edson would approve.
 
It also becomes apparent why French ships (although can only speak to Sané types) were so sensitive to trim in order to get most out of their performance regime. The lines purty near say outright that if they have a bit too much load drag, or sailed with a squat, they will suffer and become sluggish, like a lovely lady on the arm of a boor.
 
The kicker comes from Sané's famous 6 inch stretch after Villemaurin's sail trials in the historical Cornélie. Villemaurin noted stern trim sensitivity in great detail, load trimming both up and down, altering mast rake, and the sail suite. It told a lot to Sané. All of the stretch was put from Frame VII aft. Frame VII stayed where it was in the Venus (Hébé) and Virginie series. Frame VIII moved 3 inches farther aft from Frame VII and the aft perpendicular moved 3 inches farther back from Frame VIII. This centers the majority of the stretch smack dab in the region where the quarter buttock crosses the load waterline and stretches out the buttock lines in this area so they are considerably straighter.
 
I was amazed at what a simple 6 inches could do, until I realized that the difference between the "right" design curves and my "wrong" ones were the matter one inch or less, back and forth, up or down. Whoda thunk?
 
Wonder what Jacques-Noël would have done with access to a CAD program. I shiver to think.
 
Ciao. John