CharlieZardoz

What about gunport lids? The model shipways Syren depicts her with half lids, when did those become popular and is it possible that Enterprize was fitted with the same after she was converted to a brig?

Tbf I love the way they look and would be happy adding one to a model of the Enterprize... assuming there is any evidence that she ever had one. I wish to at least try and be a good historian

All I know about the 1811 refit is what is mentioned in Chappelle's book. p 234 "The schooners Vixen, Enterprise, and Nautilus and the cutter-schooner Ferret were all rerigged as brigs between 1806-1811, and some of these craft were extensively rebuilt. The Enterprise, which had been rebuilt in the Mediterranean, was again rebuilt, and this time both her model and her dimensions were changed. The schooner was not popular with American naval officers it seems." Also on p 145 "She was again rebuilt from the floor timbers up in the fall of 1811 at the Washington Navy Yard, and was then rerigged as a brig with her tonnage increased to 165 tons. About 1806 Fox measured her and found her to be 92' 9" on deck, 80' 6" between perpendiculars, 23' 9" extreme beam, 22' 11" moulded beam, and 10' 10" depth pf hold at the mainmast. This was after the first rebuilding which undoubtedly accounts for the variation in the dimensions." I am curious though what the overall benefit would have been for a small vessel like Enterprize to have or not have a beak/billethead with all the workings rather than a typical pilot schooner bow. Other than some extra space up front I am wondering if one could logically assume that was one of the changes made in 1811 in order to deal with the increased rigging up front?

Little by little I've been buying up all these classic books, should pit those on the list as well. The last few suggested by Frolick have been exceptional for images as well as period document resources the Roscoe-Freeman book as well as the Seafarers books. I attempted to make it to Mystic CT today to look at the Burrows Enterprize plans but was thwarted due to heavy traffic, however may try again tomorrow. Can't give myself off every day ya know, my cats gotta eat!

I agree frolick about Fair American. I think all Feldman meant was that if the MS model is half of 3/8" at 1:64 it would be 73' vs a third at 1:48 scale being 68' (assuming that's the right numbers I'm getting confused lol) but as you say this doesn't prove anything only that if we were to believe the original model is one thing or another. Those models from shipmodel.com look very similar to each other as far as fittings go I think they even use the same ones (like the capstans and quarter badge fittings). At any rate the model shipways model simply isn't 1/48 scale which makes me happy since I prefer working in 1/64 anyway Regarding Enterprize I think Tingey got a bad rap, wasn't his choice to convert the ships to brigs and cost most of them their speed. What constitutes a more stable gun deck?

So that means Model Shipways Fair American is technically 1:58 scale? And at 1:64 scale the model would be 24" with the hull length being around 15" I believe. I mean I definitely trust Dr Feldman's assessment of the ship and in all fairness I would not have been able to ascertain an inch and a half of variance to the scale. Or am I wrong is 1/2 of 3/8 of a scale = 3/16" aka 1:64? And regarding Enterprize, Talos I suspect that yes at one point the keel piece was lengthened amidship (probably in 1805), then later on her front or rear lines were built out a bit more and for all we know that's when she got a billethead and maybe even a poop deck. Regarding Sabine and Santee I plan on starting a post just for the differences in the Potomac class once this one settles down a bit

So in your opinion was Enterprize not also lengthened in 1805? Both Canney and Chapelle state this, however Chapelle states 2 alterations were done to her dimensions so it's possible she went from 84.5' to 92' to 97' over the course of her refits, no?

I'd really have to see the models lined up to be sure, however when I did research I determined the MS Rattlesnake model hull was about 18" Syren 19" and Fair American 16.5ish". With Rattlesnake's hull length at 89' Syren at 94' at 1/64 scale that would make Fair American about 80-82.5' if the MS model was really 1/64 which sounds logical for a 14 gun ship of the time...I think. Also using my trusty scale converter app if the 68' length were true that would make her hull 12.75" at 1/64 which isn't much larger than schooners like Sultana, Halifax, tiny cutters like Cheerful or some of the Continental privateers like Providence... and that just seems off. That and if you look at the beautiful models done by the late Michael Costagliola, William E. Hitchcock and Raymond Langdon on shipmodel.com all 3 ships look relatively similar in proportions, fittings, plank widths and otherwise so aside from Fair American's width (FA model is about 6" and Rattlesnake 4.25"), I can see the MS kit as possibly representing a model at 1/64 scale.

Interesting, and from what I know there are no surviving plans/diagrams of Nautilus either, only descriptions which describe her as being "too lightly built" and "wedge shaped" which led to problems with cramped space below. And I imagine that often during a battle these small ships would wind up doing at least some damage to themselves while attempting to deal with the space issues or like you mentioned above having to "cut" away part of the stern in order to add a rear chaser. Still boggles my mind that Fair American was a mere 70 feet and had 14 guns. Spacing between guns must have been an issue especially if attempting to fire a broadside.

Is this source insinuating that Enterprize was lengthened after the war? Could she have been lengthened twice? At 97' that would make her larger than the Syren?? Am I correct in assuming that this was written by a British historian in 1817? If that is so it is likely he didn't have the correct information and made an inference on size and date of alteration. Very interesting stuff though I downloaded the book via an online source And I agree trippwj, these little warships were so very compact and cramp when you really think about it it's simply amazing and for me why I think I like them so much. Sure a big ship like Vanguard or Victory are feats on engineering, but these small ships fascinate me in how the engineers managed to work with limited space in order to make such beautiful vessels which were essentially very practical works of art.

Here's a nice example from Syren though. Beautiful work

True plus the small boat which might have gotten in the way as well.

Interesting, I asked Michael and will see what he says. Regarding the lengthening I checked the books and Canney says it happened in Venice (which Michael agrees with), and Chappelle mentions that Fox measured her as 92' in 1806 however says her dimensions were again altered in 1811. No stern chase ports on a brig?? How weird must have happened during the 1811 rebuild... :/

Also regarding the lengthening, the Salvini plan does equal 84.5' so unless the scale below it is wrong maybe it isn't showing an extension, though I admit to being a bit confused lol. I also don't agree with the above painting's color scheme. By the time of the battle I am assuming Enterprize has a stripe similar to most schooner/brigs. Whether that stripe was white, yellow, etc. I am not sure but open to thoughts on this as well. Last I am curious if any thought or mentioning was made to Enterprize's stern detailing. I am thinking something similar to the Syren or Vixen but curious if any info exists on what the carvings/metalwork may have looked like.

Yep I totally agree! Though I am curious perhaps a bit confused. When was the Enterprize lengthened to 92' Michael Bosworth said it happened during the Venice rebuilt though I also heard it happened closer to 1812. What are your thoughts on this? I recently came across this painting which looks like a contemporary rendition of the battle with the Boxer using the period drawings as reference. It has massive problems though for one the depiction is of the older Enterprize (drawn by Roux) prior to the refit yet has her rigged as a brig which (I think) is wrong, however it does show the front of the ship and making me wonder what kind of stem Enterprize had. It seems to protrude sort of but without a billet head not a flat front like a schooner. Anyone know any other ships of that time period that had similar a front design that I may use as a reference? Having trouble figuring out what I'm looking at. :/

Ok team! Just a bit of an update regarding the Enterprize. First off I've spoken with 3 naval curators on the matter and sadly the Enterprize half hull was lost some time after that photo was taken back in the 1920's. Where she is, no one knows it's a mystery which apparently has got quite a few people out there trying to solve, many whom I imagine have greater resources at their disposal than myself. So that one is a dead end though I am curious if there are computer programs that can take a photo image and digitize them using lighting to extrapolate a form, thoughts? Secondly I received the book Tidewater Triumph by Geoffrey Footner which indeed does show the Venice plans and an alternate version as well. They both seem to have stem and stern details which don't appear accurate and can be disregarded. Added pics from the book below. I had a very nice correspondence with Michael Bosworth who explained to me a bit more regarding his thoughts on the schooner and his collaboration with the book writer. I circled a spot which according the book was where Enterprize was lengthened amidship. Last is a set of conjectural plans at Mystic Conneticut which were apparently made by a member of the Burrows family in 1973 which fellow member Alexmd was interested in. While I can look at the plans, they are historical documents and cannot be touched or photographed, so was thinking of taking a piece of clear vinyl or plexiglass and sticking it in a wood frame that I can house over the plans and then trace with a permanent marker. I'm not sure if there is a better way to copy them and if anyone here has advice I'm happy to listen.

One of the best cockpits on an armoured cruiser I've seen well done!

Frolick: Ok, just picked them both up for a few bucks on Amazon. I love the Seafarer series Talos: That image I'm familiar with from the Chapelle book (though I do appreciate the figures for sizing). I imagine both images (the HMS President as well) look like a good explanation of what the quarter galleries would probably look like assuming they remained double leveled past the war of 1812 and weren't converted to smaller ones like other frigates. I'm hoping the inboard and outboard profiles from 1849 show a good level of detail. On a sidenote here is a nice image of USS Adams from the Coker book. Only painting of her i've ever see not sure how accurate she is,

Probably the best thing for me to do is order that inboard/outboard profile of United States and see if the quarter galleries are really 2 story w windows like a ship of the line or if they just look like Constitution or President. When i find out ill post it here

In all seriousness though would that mean there were 3 latrines per side, 2 in each quarter gallery and 1 in each roundhouse? My understanding was that thered be one per floor in the quarter gallery. I suppose the half windows are confusing me. If they are indicative of a floor level or if the window is simply partially boarded up. I suppose only the captains servent knows for sure

Bwahaha!!! Indeed you are correct. Id like to think we all watched/read the book Cross sections manowar by Biesty a few times to much amusement. Dont really want to know what they did with the cobs though

Yep that makes perfect sense now thanks! Still trying to think out the internal structure of the quarter galleries though if it had two levels how do the half windows factor into that. I'm going to have to place that order to Maryland silver when I get the extra funds. He has those inboard and outboard plans from Gosport dated 1846 which is likely from her last refit and hopefully they will show the double level quarter galleries and should rest a few questions I have about the look of the vessel.

Ok great and yes I thought that's what you meant, though I am having a hard time picturing would it would look like if I was standing right next to it. I am assuming what's inside is a room that is connected to the quarter galleries or are they possibly not connected and placed higher. Hard to tell when looking over it vertically in 2D I wonder if there are other examples of this elsewhere but either way fascinating stuff.

Ok Frolick here is the image from Chatham's pictoral history of 1812 stern detail for United States. While it's a tad -er cartoony I see what you mean that yes this appears as if someone is copied the details in an attempt to make them look accurate. The Macedonian looks pretty much as it should. The United States has 7 windows and 2 weird looking half windows, with a lot of plant like wreath-y material as decorations and two stern guns with square cutouts, which I have seen in other depictions of her stern. I am not sure what you mean by quarterdeck roundhouses though so I included the spar deck plan as well. I am very curious if this stern would have remained all the way up to the civil war. I am going to assume that she was likely altered same time Constitution was with a more regular stern and fewer windows however many of the Potomac class ships appear in period paintings with stern images to also have that kinda "M" shape in the mouldings just like the Constitution class ships so maybe she stayed like this up to the end minus a few details?

The Harvey isn't bad but some of the deck work looks weird, different doors with different sizes, anachronistic parts, gratings in weird places etc. but with a bit of research could be made to look nice