CharlieZardoz

Home again and back to work, so time for an update. I've made up and mounted the three square half frames at the stern. Same procedures as for the full frames. I also did some fairing while waiting for glue to dry. This was primarily in the midship area and consisted of using various sticks and blocks with 60, 100 and 120 grit sandpaper. Final fairing will be done when the frames are complete.
 
I'm now working on the stern cant frames.
 
Bob

Now that's an interesting point, frolick.  I had not heard that before.  I have read that davits were a fairly new thing, and the quarter davits came before the stern davits.  I suspect the qtr. davits on the replica vessel are as they are so a boat can be quickly launched in case of emergency (Coast Guard etc.).  The literature (and HMS Victory) show wooden qtr. davits (they are straight timbers with sheaves at the outer end for the boat falls) that are pivoted at the butt end and can 'retract' toward the shrouds, supported by tackle that goes to the upper portion of the mast.  Slacking off on this tackle allows the davits to reach further out, past the tumblehome, and the falls can then lower the boat to the water.  I did my version of Lawrence with only stern davits, so you have given me justification for what was only an instinctual decision.
The forward most port of eleven, Mike, would be mostly a bridle port, for handling the anchors.  There is a lot of length between the forward gun port and the stem, and, while it was apparently not uncommon or unknown for the anchors to be handled over the rail on these smallish vessels, there is nothing to preclude adding a bridle port to make the job easier.

No davits on sloops of war during the War-of-1812, at least according to an 1813 letter written by Jacob Jones of the Wasp I, following the battle with the Frolic. He saw an approaching British ship, bow on, which carried davits, and so he ran away because, according to him, davits meant a frigate or a ship-of-the-line. The ship was the 74-gun liner Poictiers, which captured him.

It was a short reference from a NY newspaper at the time of the New York's launch.  I never got to the NY library to search for more information in their newspaper archives.  The library person told me this was all he found at the time, but a search might find more, and I could do it.  May be someday?

I completed and installed the rails, the catheads, the timberheads, the quarterdeck ladders and the timbers that define the gun ports.  The only major parts left on the hull (except for cleats, eyebolts etc.) are the channels, the swivel gun mounts and the quarterdeck and poopdeck railings.  The masts are done.  Once the spars are made it's on to rigging.

As you can see, I fit the taffrail to the model.  I've been thinking about a name.  I don't want "Independence" for a number of reasons, so I decided on "Clio".  Clio was the Muse of History, one of the 9 Muses in Greek Mythology.  There were three British naval vessels called HMS Clio, one launched in 1807, the second in 1858, and the third in 1903.  My schooner is circa 1765, about 40 years earlier than the earliest British vessel..  I think the name is historically appropriate.  In the photo, I simply typed the name "Clio" using New Times Roman font on a black background and sized it appropriately.  The final "Plaque" with the name is 1/4" high by 11/16" wide.  The problem is that the white "Clio" is kind of muddied in the computer printout, and the background black is actually gray.  I have two questions:
 
1) What do you think of the name "Clio" for this vessel?
 
2) Is there a way I can have a tiny laser engraved plaque or 3-D printed placque with the letters in relief so I can paint my own white and black to give me a clearer name plate?  Shapeways does 3-D printing, but I don't do CAD!

Once again, welcome aboard to all. your interest is always appreciated.
 
A few words about what I received from the Lumberyard, and about the direction that I intend to take. To begin with, this is a build using Hahn plans (included in the package), and the Hahn upside down construction method (a laser cut framing jig is included). The package contains laser cut framing pieces, including the keel, stem, stern post, rudder, keelson and frame futtocks. I ordered all of that in boxwood. There are various other laser cut pieces such as deck beams. I also got a sheet with laser cut pieces for the stern transom windows and carvings and the quarter badges and windows. The package also contains a good deal of sheet and strip wood in boxwood, pear and some other woods for planking and other purposes. In general, the laser cutting appears to be very good and the strip and sheet looks good, but not as smoothly finished as that from Crown. One potential problem looms. The jig and the keel assembly ( which I have put together) don't match the drawings in length. They do, however, exactly match up to one another. Hopefully, this means that the construction will proceed without difficulty, although yielding a model slightly longer than that shown in the drawings.
 
I have obtained a copy of Hahn's book "The Colonial Schooner 1763- 1775" to assist in construction. It is my present intention to plank both sides from the wales up and to leave the lower hull unplanned, although I may decide to fully plank one side of the lower hull. I intend to detail the interior of the hull, with lower decking, partitions, etc. Upper decking will be left partially open to allow a view of the lower interior.
 
I am attaching a photo of the jig, a rather poor photo of the package contents and a photo of the assembled keel. It's now time to get to work on the frames.
 
Bob
 
 
 


 
 





 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I'll throw my two cents in here since I wondered the same and while both ships were likely identical, there is no reason why one couldn't use a bit of an artistic license to modify color schemes and certain deck fittings to offer a bit of distinction. Here is a model of Lawrence someone did which looks like Niagara and while the white stripe doesn't look accurate to me there are some minor differences here. I think one could approach model ship building as a "theory" project you want to complete sometimes research offers two or more plausible conclusions regarding how a ships detailing could have been laid out and you can build two totally similar yet different ships and call them sister ships. Noone may know how they really looked but both may be working theories of how they "could" have looked and in the process you enhance your own knowledge on how such ships may have functioned  

I'm realizing I need to make a list of carvers and builders of these ships and then follow the line to see who worked on which ship and what their specific style were. Looking at New York next to Constellation/Congress I can see how the lines are very similar. Seems same is true with Boston and Essex I believe.

I'll throw my two cents in here since I wondered the same and while both ships were likely identical, there is no reason why one couldn't use a bit of an artistic license to modify color schemes and certain deck fittings to offer a bit of distinction. Here is a model of Lawrence someone did which looks like Niagara and while the white stripe doesn't look accurate to me there are some minor differences here. I think one could approach model ship building as a "theory" project you want to complete sometimes research offers two or more plausible conclusions regarding how a ships detailing could have been laid out and you can build two totally similar yet different ships and call them sister ships. Noone may know how they really looked but both may be working theories of how they "could" have looked and in the process you enhance your own knowledge on how such ships may have functioned  

I'll throw my two cents in here since I wondered the same and while both ships were likely identical, there is no reason why one couldn't use a bit of an artistic license to modify color schemes and certain deck fittings to offer a bit of distinction. Here is a model of Lawrence someone did which looks like Niagara and while the white stripe doesn't look accurate to me there are some minor differences here. I think one could approach model ship building as a "theory" project you want to complete sometimes research offers two or more plausible conclusions regarding how a ships detailing could have been laid out and you can build two totally similar yet different ships and call them sister ships. Noone may know how they really looked but both may be working theories of how they "could" have looked and in the process you enhance your own knowledge on how such ships may have functioned  

The painting was done shortly after the battle by one of the British officers.  It shows Niagara from the stern and Lawrence from broadside.  I got a glimpse of it in color and there seems to be no stripe of any distinction on Lawrence's side.  She does show a typical head with headrails, billet with scroll, etc. which seems contraindicated by the textual information.
Chuck, everything I have seen tends to the belief that Niagara was raised in 1876 and sent to the Philadelphia Centennial Exposition where she burned along with her protective enclosure.  The vessel presumed to be Queen Charlotte was destroyed in a flood at Buffalo after a career as a merchant vessel.  The Queen Charlotte herself was raised in 1913, identified as Niagara and restored and put on display.  The current restoration has no particular identity with that 1913 vessel and may be as close as we are going to get to the 1813 brig.
That's all off the top of my head and subject to change after consultation with my notes, but that's my take on it.

I'll throw my two cents in here since I wondered the same and while both ships were likely identical, there is no reason why one couldn't use a bit of an artistic license to modify color schemes and certain deck fittings to offer a bit of distinction. Here is a model of Lawrence someone did which looks like Niagara and while the white stripe doesn't look accurate to me there are some minor differences here. I think one could approach model ship building as a "theory" project you want to complete sometimes research offers two or more plausible conclusions regarding how a ships detailing could have been laid out and you can build two totally similar yet different ships and call them sister ships. Noone may know how they really looked but both may be working theories of how they "could" have looked and in the process you enhance your own knowledge on how such ships may have functioned  

I'll throw my two cents in here since I wondered the same and while both ships were likely identical, there is no reason why one couldn't use a bit of an artistic license to modify color schemes and certain deck fittings to offer a bit of distinction. Here is a model of Lawrence someone did which looks like Niagara and while the white stripe doesn't look accurate to me there are some minor differences here. I think one could approach model ship building as a "theory" project you want to complete sometimes research offers two or more plausible conclusions regarding how a ships detailing could have been laid out and you can build two totally similar yet different ships and call them sister ships. Noone may know how they really looked but both may be working theories of how they "could" have looked and in the process you enhance your own knowledge on how such ships may have functioned  

I'm realizing I need to make a list of carvers and builders of these ships and then follow the line to see who worked on which ship and what their specific style were. Looking at New York next to Constellation/Congress I can see how the lines are very similar. Seems same is true with Boston and Essex I believe.

Frolick was McIntire the one who did New York's carvings? And thank you Sir Seahawk id like these posts to be sort of online resources for these ships if possible. I feel what info does survive is scattered about and forgotten in some instances. Regarding the New York seal im leaning to the idea that it was used as a theme for the stern, meaning parts of it scattered about and implied throughout rather than just plastered on the center of the stern whole. But I could be wrong about that?

Hi all! Been a bit I've been neck deep in my new business, I see this post has been evolving a bit. Interesting to think New York was salvageable by 1830. Regarding this "French style" was the Boston's stern also done this way? I say looking at Dan's version of the model on this site which also seems to have that central stack of flags type thing frolick described. What is the source of this info regarding New York's stern? Is it accessible somewhere?

Never one to let an anthill go unmolested....
 
There are some that say the NIAGARA that was recovered and documented, and which all the models and replicas are based, is actually the QUEEN CHARLOTTE.

They are described in more than one source as being exactly the same.
Dr. Usher Parsons: 'precisely alike...built and rigged precisely alike'.
They were also armed exactly alike, 2 12 pdrs. and 18 32 pdr. carronades for each vessel.

I read somewhere long ago (weasel disclaimer, don't recall) that the Boston's carvings were done by the Skillins family of Boston. There are unidentified sketches of ships' sterns in the Peabody Museum of Salem by Samuel Skillins, according to their catalog. I think the elder Skillins did the Confederacy's carvings ... ?

It is assumed that the New York's carving was done by Daniel N. Train, he did a lot of this work in N.Y.C.  He did the work on the Adams and President,  I would guess the New York carvings and subjects would be in that "style", a strong influence of Wm. Rush.  The Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts had a great book,_William Rush  American Sculptor, shows his ideas and works on the Goddesses, etc.  He liked doing Hercules and Columbia.  Most of this is guess work, but based on the sculptors style you can get a feel for what he may or may not have done.  I have thought the main library in the City may have some information in the old newspapers, but I hate going into there.
The Philadelphia's Taffrail went missing a long time ago,  I never thought to ask if they had anything on size, etc.  They gave me a 8X10 picture of it, but it doesn't show much.  It would have helped if they had put a ruler with it.  Do you know when the Philadelphia's guns were recovered or what happened to them?   It would have been good to bring them home.  The wood cut shows 6 windows on the stern,  I enlarged it as best I could, I think it shows an accurate of the ship, small details are right for Philadelphia.  Sorry if I rabble!  Its age catching up with me. 

No, McIntire did the Essex's, and maybe also the Pickering's and the Merrimack's. Its all guess-work at this point, since no one bothered to preserve any carving details, but if you are willing to guess, I think you are probably right about the New York's stern, Charlie. The tafferail of the USS Maryland had the seal of Maryland in the center, if I recall correctly. I would go with the female figure of "Columbia" as a figurehead, since Columbia University is in the city. Use perhaps the figure on Chapelle's draught of the Congress as a guide, since the New York was basically a reduced Congress, according to contemporary sources.
 
 

Frolick was McIntire the one who did New York's carvings? And thank you Sir Seahawk id like these posts to be sort of online resources for these ships if possible. I feel what info does survive is scattered about and forgotten in some instances. Regarding the New York seal im leaning to the idea that it was used as a theme for the stern, meaning parts of it scattered about and implied throughout rather than just plastered on the center of the stern whole. But I could be wrong about that?

I believe the Naval Historical Center in Washington has Bill's old data files. I don't have Philadelphia's file. I never thought the NA tafferail looked very Rush-like either (not sufficiently detailed), but maybe they sub-ed the job out to a local carver. I wondered if the dimensions of that tafferail survives. I once speculated that maybe the fastenings holes in it, might betray how far apart the counter timbers were, and thus, how many windows she had. I looked at that same engraving of Phillies stern, and I thought I counted seven windows. There is a frame drawing for an unknown 36 gun frigate (14 gun ports aside) in the Fox Papers labeled "proposed deck for Chesapeake", but the plan shows eight counter-timbers (seven windows, not counting the two additional false windows on the back of the galleries), two more than the Chesapeake had, and I wondered if this wasn't the Philadelphia's proposed gun deck plan instead ...
 
Your Essex drawing sounds very McIntire-ish to me. He carved many fireplace mantels in Salem, exactly as you described, but he always replaced the Indian in the State Seal's shield with an eagle ... and put him instead on the Essex's bow.

Hello Steve,  I'M still here, Retired from driving School Buses- Clam company died in 1998.  Just started modelling again after 17 year "break".  Started the Philadelphia 2 months ago, have the hull about 80% done, started the cannons so I can finish the gun deck.  Interesting picture of the salvaged guns,  especially the 9 pdr, I found no reference of 9 pdrs, 1 or 2 Chase guns?  I don't have Bill's notes on Philadelphia.  I wish I was better with computer back then, he had so much information.  I don't know if anyone has his computer files, and Southhampton College is gone.  Between modelling and things I started going through my files.  In my youth I thought I knew a lot about the Carvings, but time has made me realize there is a lot unknown.  Do you have an opinion on the Taffrail recovered from the Philadelphia, now missing from Annapolis, for some reason it doesn't look very Wm. Rush like to me?  Just as a note:  I found a "rough" drawing of the Essex stern carving I made 30 years ago,  center is the Coat of Arms of Massachusetts with 4 flags and 4 cannon barrells behind the shield with an Eagle with downward  wings imposed over the shield , on each side of it are cornucopua (sp?), this seems like something Samuel McIntire would do.  I may have found this when I was searching for New York carvings, I don't remember the source and didn't note it.
Charlie, I will look for anything I have on the Boston,had some files on it.