Roger Pellett

With regard to dafi's post above two opposite forces act on a submerged object. Gravity equal to the open air weight of the object is pulling it down. Buoyancy equal to the weight of the the water displaced by the object is pushing up. The force on the anchor cable is therefore equal to the net of these two forces.
 
If water is one seventh as dense as wrought iron, then the force on the anchor cable after being broken out is 6/7 not 1/7 of the anchor's weight.
 
Roger Pellett

With regard to dafi's post above two opposite forces act on a submerged object. Gravity equal to the open air weight of the object is pulling it down. Buoyancy equal to the weight of the the water displaced by the object is pushing up. The force on the anchor cable is therefore equal to the net of these two forces.
 
If water is one seventh as dense as wrought iron, then the force on the anchor cable after being broken out is 6/7 not 1/7 of the anchor's weight.
 
Roger Pellett

With regard to dafi's post above two opposite forces act on a submerged object. Gravity equal to the open air weight of the object is pulling it down. Buoyancy equal to the weight of the the water displaced by the object is pushing up. The force on the anchor cable is therefore equal to the net of these two forces.
 
If water is one seventh as dense as wrought iron, then the force on the anchor cable after being broken out is 6/7 not 1/7 of the anchor's weight.
 
Roger Pellett

With regard to dafi's post above two opposite forces act on a submerged object. Gravity equal to the open air weight of the object is pulling it down. Buoyancy equal to the weight of the the water displaced by the object is pushing up. The force on the anchor cable is therefore equal to the net of these two forces.
 
If water is one seventh as dense as wrought iron, then the force on the anchor cable after being broken out is 6/7 not 1/7 of the anchor's weight.
 
Roger Pellett

With regard to dafi's post above two opposite forces act on a submerged object. Gravity equal to the open air weight of the object is pulling it down. Buoyancy equal to the weight of the the water displaced by the object is pushing up. The force on the anchor cable is therefore equal to the net of these two forces.
 
If water is one seventh as dense as wrought iron, then the force on the anchor cable after being broken out is 6/7 not 1/7 of the anchor's weight.
 
Roger Pellett

If the intent of this or any group project is to introduce model builders to scratch building, the Hahn system has much to recommend. The idea of a flat jig/datum to lock frames in place goes a long way towards ensuring an accurate hull. For builders with limited workshop capacity, strip milled to the correct dimensions can be purchased, cut with a minirature miter box and laminated and cut to shape using simple hand tools. Many years ago, I built a model of the New York pilot boat Express using the Hahn system and over 30 years later am still quite proud of it. While building a model "upright" using individual timbers may better represent actual shipbuilding practice, I would argue that a builder wishing to include this level of detail, and capable of executing it does not need to and might not be interested in a group build.
 
Roger Pellett

If the intent of this or any group project is to introduce model builders to scratch building, the Hahn system has much to recommend. The idea of a flat jig/datum to lock frames in place goes a long way towards ensuring an accurate hull. For builders with limited workshop capacity, strip milled to the correct dimensions can be purchased, cut with a minirature miter box and laminated and cut to shape using simple hand tools. Many years ago, I built a model of the New York pilot boat Express using the Hahn system and over 30 years later am still quite proud of it. While building a model "upright" using individual timbers may better represent actual shipbuilding practice, I would argue that a builder wishing to include this level of detail, and capable of executing it does not need to and might not be interested in a group build.
 
Roger Pellett

Concerning the application of CA in very small quantities, I use the ink pen from an old drafting set.  For those of you who aren't old enough to remember, imagine making ink drawing by hand.  I have some drawings that my grandfather made in 1898 while in tech school.  The ink pen is infinitely adjustable and allows you to control the gap and provide extremely small applications of either thin or medium CA.  It doesn't work very well for thick CA.
 
Roger, they do make a vapor free CA that eliminates the nose/throat problem.  It acts more slowly and avoids the flash cure and associated vapors.
 
Bob

In my opinion, CA can be nasty stuff. Several years ago, I ised it to glue ribs into some small boats that I had vacuum formed from plastic. This caused exposure to a fair quantity of glue over a period of an hour or so. I was also careless in handling the stuff. The glue did a great job of gluing in the ribs but gave me a serious nasal congestion and sore throat. Now I avoid it whenever possible and am careful to only squeeze out a drop or two at a time into a plastic container lid.
 
Roger Pellett

In my opinion, CA can be nasty stuff. Several years ago, I ised it to glue ribs into some small boats that I had vacuum formed from plastic. This caused exposure to a fair quantity of glue over a period of an hour or so. I was also careless in handling the stuff. The glue did a great job of gluing in the ribs but gave me a serious nasal congestion and sore throat. Now I avoid it whenever possible and am careful to only squeeze out a drop or two at a time into a plastic container lid.
 
Roger Pellett

In my opinion, CA can be nasty stuff. Several years ago, I ised it to glue ribs into some small boats that I had vacuum formed from plastic. This caused exposure to a fair quantity of glue over a period of an hour or so. I was also careless in handling the stuff. The glue did a great job of gluing in the ribs but gave me a serious nasal congestion and sore throat. Now I avoid it whenever possible and am careful to only squeeze out a drop or two at a time into a plastic container lid.
 
Roger Pellett

In my opinion, CA can be nasty stuff. Several years ago, I ised it to glue ribs into some small boats that I had vacuum formed from plastic. This caused exposure to a fair quantity of glue over a period of an hour or so. I was also careless in handling the stuff. The glue did a great job of gluing in the ribs but gave me a serious nasal congestion and sore throat. Now I avoid it whenever possible and am careful to only squeeze out a drop or two at a time into a plastic container lid.
 
Roger Pellett

In the 131 years since the iron-hulled cargo ship Wavertree was built, it has been tossed and tattered — its main mast ripped away in a hurricane, and its role demoted to sand barge.  Now it’s being restored.  Read about it here.
 
Bob

More important than the topping lift, the peak halyard now is more in line with the leach to help prevent it from sagging to leeward. I do not believe that the tack of the main sheet was belayed to the inner end of the boom. The boom's gooseneck on the drawing that I am using is a reader flimsy hook that would not withstand an upward force. The throat halyard pulling on the luff of the sail would pull the boom out of the fitting. On models that I have seen made from your kit, this fitting is similar. Rather I believe that the tack belayed further down the mast or to a ring bolt attached to the boat's keelson. The boom is then in compression acting as a pole to spread the sail's foot.
 
The dimension of the foot of the staysail Is set by the distance between the fore stay and the mast. Unfortunately, I am traveling so don't have access to my library to comment on other dimensions. I will look over my drawing when I return. The staysail should be hanked to the stay all along so the luff is supported by the stay.. The tack would be hooked to the stem head.
 
If you agree with my premise that the jib was intended for off the wind sailing, a single part halyard probably would be sufficient as there would be no need to be able to maintain a tight luff. Sheets could be belayed or snubbed to any convenient point within the boat.
 
Considering that it was necessary to rig the boat often I would suggest erring on the side of less is better and not providing down hauls for either of the headsails. The jib would normally be hauled in to the stem head using the traveler. Otherwise there would be a danger of the boat sailing over the dropped sail.
 
I believe that you're on the right track.
 
Roger

More important than the topping lift, the peak halyard now is more in line with the leach to help prevent it from sagging to leeward. I do not believe that the tack of the main sheet was belayed to the inner end of the boom. The boom's gooseneck on the drawing that I am using is a reader flimsy hook that would not withstand an upward force. The throat halyard pulling on the luff of the sail would pull the boom out of the fitting. On models that I have seen made from your kit, this fitting is similar. Rather I believe that the tack belayed further down the mast or to a ring bolt attached to the boat's keelson. The boom is then in compression acting as a pole to spread the sail's foot.
 
The dimension of the foot of the staysail Is set by the distance between the fore stay and the mast. Unfortunately, I am traveling so don't have access to my library to comment on other dimensions. I will look over my drawing when I return. The staysail should be hanked to the stay all along so the luff is supported by the stay.. The tack would be hooked to the stem head.
 
If you agree with my premise that the jib was intended for off the wind sailing, a single part halyard probably would be sufficient as there would be no need to be able to maintain a tight luff. Sheets could be belayed or snubbed to any convenient point within the boat.
 
Considering that it was necessary to rig the boat often I would suggest erring on the side of less is better and not providing down hauls for either of the headsails. The jib would normally be hauled in to the stem head using the traveler. Otherwise there would be a danger of the boat sailing over the dropped sail.
 
I believe that you're on the right track.
 
Roger

I look forward to seeing it.
 
Roger

Lots of confusing stuff.
 
I have'nt seen the instructions as I'm building my model from the admiralty draught in May's book, not from the kit. The lines were developed from the body plan and sheer elevation also on the draught. This sail/rigging plan shows several things that we might find unusual but my philosophy in building the model is that if shown on the drawing, model it. For example the mainsail topping lift, throat halyard, and peak halyard all lead through a treble block on the mast head pole. I am less inclined to pay attention to models as I have no idea when they were rigged. It is my understanding that the rigging on many Admiralty drawings is not original.
 
As far as the staysail is concerned it would be hanked to the stay and the halyard would pass from the mast head pole down to a single block on the head of the sail and then to a single also on the masthead pole and then down to the masthead thwart where it belays on a pin.
 
The jib would be set flying- not hanked to a stay. The tack of the sail hooks to traveling ring on the bowsprit. This is pulled along the bowsprit by a line through a sheave at the outboard end of the bowsprit The head of the sail is simply hooked to the halyard. The drawing that I am using leads this halyard through a cheek block also mounted on the mast head pole.
 
You show both foresail halyards hooked to the bowsprit. If these were hooked to the sails, your rig would work exactly as I am describing.
 
As far as the main sheet traveler or horse, if located below the tiller the block would slide over and take charge of the rudder capsizing the boat when tacking. I dumped a friend's Flying Scot in the Duluth Superior harbor by losing control of the tiller tacking in a gust. I agree that models including the Kregstein model show the traveler below the rudder.
 
Both the short gaff and the traveler or horse would reduce twist in the sail improving its efficiency. Large vessels were rigged with vangs to do this. But small boats didn't use these.
Roger Pellett

Lots of confusing stuff.
 
I have'nt seen the instructions as I'm building my model from the admiralty draught in May's book, not from the kit. The lines were developed from the body plan and sheer elevation also on the draught. This sail/rigging plan shows several things that we might find unusual but my philosophy in building the model is that if shown on the drawing, model it. For example the mainsail topping lift, throat halyard, and peak halyard all lead through a treble block on the mast head pole. I am less inclined to pay attention to models as I have no idea when they were rigged. It is my understanding that the rigging on many Admiralty drawings is not original.
 
As far as the staysail is concerned it would be hanked to the stay and the halyard would pass from the mast head pole down to a single block on the head of the sail and then to a single also on the masthead pole and then down to the masthead thwart where it belays on a pin.
 
The jib would be set flying- not hanked to a stay. The tack of the sail hooks to traveling ring on the bowsprit. This is pulled along the bowsprit by a line through a sheave at the outboard end of the bowsprit The head of the sail is simply hooked to the halyard. The drawing that I am using leads this halyard through a cheek block also mounted on the mast head pole.
 
You show both foresail halyards hooked to the bowsprit. If these were hooked to the sails, your rig would work exactly as I am describing.
 
As far as the main sheet traveler or horse, if located below the tiller the block would slide over and take charge of the rudder capsizing the boat when tacking. I dumped a friend's Flying Scot in the Duluth Superior harbor by losing control of the tiller tacking in a gust. I agree that models including the Kregstein model show the traveler below the rudder.
 
Both the short gaff and the traveler or horse would reduce twist in the sail improving its efficiency. Large vessels were rigged with vangs to do this. But small boats didn't use these.
Roger Pellett

Cathead,
 
You might find this information helpful. It is taken from the Admiralty draught that I am using.
 
Length of hull overall 32ft
 
Mast length, not including pole 28ft-3in
Boom Length 24 ft
Gaff length 6ft-6in
Length of main sail hoist 25 ft
Area of mainsail 381 square feet
 
As you can see, the gaff is very short relative to the boom
 
Regarding the headsails:
 
My interpretation is that the jib is a sail used when sailing in light air and particularly off the wind. First of all it is set flying, not hanked to a stay and the long bowsprit is quite flexible so there is no way to tighten the luff and a jib with a luff sagging to leeward doesn't work well. Second, that long unstayed bowsprit and the support that connects the butt of the bowsprit to the fore ward thwart would not hold up sailing upwind in a stiff breeze. My guess is that the sail functioned pretty much like the modern axysymmetric spinnaker with the bowsprit acting as pole used mainly for broad reaching and close reaching in light air.
 
The real workhorse in sloops is the fore stay sail with its luff hanked to a taught fore stay. You should therefore give some thought to how it gets belayed as li likes to be hauled in tight when working upwind. Some longboats featured an iron horse just forward of the mast and running clear across the boat. The sheet would be a three part purchase with its end belayed to an elongated pin through the block on the horse. This would allow the sail to be self tacking.
 
The main sheet traveler on your kit model must go over the tiller, not under it as shown to avoid excitement when coming about. Although you are never supposed to belay a main sheet in a small boat, my model will include a cleat as the sail is too big to handle without at least snubbing the sheet.
 
Roger Pellett

Cathead,
 
You might find this information helpful. It is taken from the Admiralty draught that I am using.
 
Length of hull overall 32ft
 
Mast length, not including pole 28ft-3in
Boom Length 24 ft
Gaff length 6ft-6in
Length of main sail hoist 25 ft
Area of mainsail 381 square feet
 
As you can see, the gaff is very short relative to the boom
 
Regarding the headsails:
 
My interpretation is that the jib is a sail used when sailing in light air and particularly off the wind. First of all it is set flying, not hanked to a stay and the long bowsprit is quite flexible so there is no way to tighten the luff and a jib with a luff sagging to leeward doesn't work well. Second, that long unstayed bowsprit and the support that connects the butt of the bowsprit to the fore ward thwart would not hold up sailing upwind in a stiff breeze. My guess is that the sail functioned pretty much like the modern axysymmetric spinnaker with the bowsprit acting as pole used mainly for broad reaching and close reaching in light air.
 
The real workhorse in sloops is the fore stay sail with its luff hanked to a taught fore stay. You should therefore give some thought to how it gets belayed as li likes to be hauled in tight when working upwind. Some longboats featured an iron horse just forward of the mast and running clear across the boat. The sheet would be a three part purchase with its end belayed to an elongated pin through the block on the horse. This would allow the sail to be self tacking.
 
The main sheet traveler on your kit model must go over the tiller, not under it as shown to avoid excitement when coming about. Although you are never supposed to belay a main sheet in a small boat, my model will include a cleat as the sail is too big to handle without at least snubbing the sheet.
 
Roger Pellett

The classic work on early fore and aft rigs, The Fore And Aft Rig in America says that there were two varieties of gaff rigs- a short gaff and a long gaff. The excellent book The Boats of Men-of-War by W. E. May includes a detailed admiralty draught with sail plan of a mid 18th Century Royal Navy longboat and it is a short gaff.
 
I am building a 1: 32 model of this boat of this boat and I intend to rig it in accordance with the drawing. In my opinion, the small gaff sail makes a lot more sense than the long gaff sail shown on the various kit models. With their bluff bows, necessary for providing buoyancy to lift heavy weights, these boats must have difficult to sail off the wind in heavy air. As the boat approached hull speed, it would be pushing a big bow wave and with that big mainsail would develop a strong weather helm. The boat would then "round up" and broach.
 
Modern keel sailboats will knockdown and recover because of their heavy keel but this longboat would flood and capsize. A amaller (short gaff) mainsail than a long gaff one seen on the recent kit models makes more sense to me.
 
Another example of a rigged longboat is the model in the Kregstein Collection. When they got the model it was unrigged, and they rigged it using spars that came with the model. It is a short gaff rig.
 
I think that the mainsail in your drawing should look more like a "shoulder of mutton sail" than the long gaff that you show. The sail should also be loose footed.
 
Roger Pellett

Cathead,
 
You might find this information helpful. It is taken from the Admiralty draught that I am using.
 
Length of hull overall 32ft
 
Mast length, not including pole 28ft-3in
Boom Length 24 ft
Gaff length 6ft-6in
Length of main sail hoist 25 ft
Area of mainsail 381 square feet
 
As you can see, the gaff is very short relative to the boom
 
Regarding the headsails:
 
My interpretation is that the jib is a sail used when sailing in light air and particularly off the wind. First of all it is set flying, not hanked to a stay and the long bowsprit is quite flexible so there is no way to tighten the luff and a jib with a luff sagging to leeward doesn't work well. Second, that long unstayed bowsprit and the support that connects the butt of the bowsprit to the fore ward thwart would not hold up sailing upwind in a stiff breeze. My guess is that the sail functioned pretty much like the modern axysymmetric spinnaker with the bowsprit acting as pole used mainly for broad reaching and close reaching in light air.
 
The real workhorse in sloops is the fore stay sail with its luff hanked to a taught fore stay. You should therefore give some thought to how it gets belayed as li likes to be hauled in tight when working upwind. Some longboats featured an iron horse just forward of the mast and running clear across the boat. The sheet would be a three part purchase with its end belayed to an elongated pin through the block on the horse. This would allow the sail to be self tacking.
 
The main sheet traveler on your kit model must go over the tiller, not under it as shown to avoid excitement when coming about. Although you are never supposed to belay a main sheet in a small boat, my model will include a cleat as the sail is too big to handle without at least snubbing the sheet.
 
Roger Pellett

The classic work on early fore and aft rigs, The Fore And Aft Rig in America says that there were two varieties of gaff rigs- a short gaff and a long gaff. The excellent book The Boats of Men-of-War by W. E. May includes a detailed admiralty draught with sail plan of a mid 18th Century Royal Navy longboat and it is a short gaff.
 
I am building a 1: 32 model of this boat of this boat and I intend to rig it in accordance with the drawing. In my opinion, the small gaff sail makes a lot more sense than the long gaff sail shown on the various kit models. With their bluff bows, necessary for providing buoyancy to lift heavy weights, these boats must have difficult to sail off the wind in heavy air. As the boat approached hull speed, it would be pushing a big bow wave and with that big mainsail would develop a strong weather helm. The boat would then "round up" and broach.
 
Modern keel sailboats will knockdown and recover because of their heavy keel but this longboat would flood and capsize. A amaller (short gaff) mainsail than a long gaff one seen on the recent kit models makes more sense to me.
 
Another example of a rigged longboat is the model in the Kregstein Collection. When they got the model it was unrigged, and they rigged it using spars that came with the model. It is a short gaff rig.
 
I think that the mainsail in your drawing should look more like a "shoulder of mutton sail" than the long gaff that you show. The sail should also be loose footed.
 
Roger Pellett

Unlike the steamboats used on the eastern rivers that used low pressure condensing engines, wetern river steamboats used high pressure engines that exhausted partially expanded steam to the atmosphere. By using high pressure steam, these engines could be quite powerful, but their efficiency was very low as they lost the use of the heat that still remained in the steam at atmospheric temperature.
 
Roger Pellett

Unlike the steamboats used on the eastern rivers that used low pressure condensing engines, wetern river steamboats used high pressure engines that exhausted partially expanded steam to the atmosphere. By using high pressure steam, these engines could be quite powerful, but their efficiency was very low as they lost the use of the heat that still remained in the steam at atmospheric temperature.
 
Roger Pellett