Morgan

Some background. The following is an article from the Guardian 17 March 2014 – Paint detectives uncover true colours of Nelson’s victorious flagshipby Maev Kennedy “Conservationists say state of Victory is a 20th century version of what an 18th century warship looked like The bumble-bee stripes of orangey brown and black of one of the most famous ships in the world, Horatio Nelson's HMS Victory on which he fought and died at the battle of Trafalgar in 1805, may have to be repainted after a team of historic paint detectives recovered hundreds of fragments of the original paint surfaces. "What you see today is largely an early 20th century invention of what an 18th century warship looked like," said Michael Crick-Smith, a founder with his partner Ian Crick-Smith of the conservation institute at Lincoln University specialising in historic decorative finishes. The pair claim that the colour they describe as "that hideous orange" is part of much later attempts to restore the ship when it had become a symbol of British naval power. The cherished legend is that it was repainted in his favourite colours at Nelson's orders, when the already elderly ship, launched in the 1760s when he was just a school boy, was refitted as his flagship. But the Crick-Smiths' analysis – which in some places involved disentangling 72 layers of paint – suggests the hull was originally mostly black, with a lot of varnished timber above the water line. It was later partly repainted in an ochre shade, probably before Nelson took it over, but a much paler colour than the present vivid shade. The orlop deck, where desperate attempts were made to save Nelson's life after a French sniper's bullet went through his shoulder and lungs and lodged in his spine, leaving him drowning in his own blood, was a pale creamy stone colour. The surgeon's cabin and the other small cabins on that deck were a surprisingly grand two shades of blue – good quality paint, compared to the cheap limewash and poor quality oil paint used in much of the ship. The spaces now shown as Nelson's admiral's cabin, and the captain's cabin of Thomas Hardy (the "kiss me, Hardy" in whose arms Nelson died) are entirely comparatively modern reconstructions, but the Crick-Smiths are convinced from contemporary sources that they would have been much plainer, and probably painted a light blue. "These were working spaces, not country houses at sea as they appear now," Michael Crick-Smith said. The good news for the current guardians of the ship, the National Museum of the Royal Navy at Portsmouth Historic Dockyard, is that the Crick-Smiths discovered a remarkable amount of original material. The upper decks are almost entirely reconstructions, but on the lower decks they discovered mainly original timber and hundreds of patches of original paint, dating all the way back to the very first paint scheme in 1765. They also picked through a warehouse full of thousands of samples of timber removed from the ship in generations of repairs, and found many more. One sample of the ochre paint – "diabolical quality", Ian Crick-Smith said - came from an old capstan which was once used as a plinth for a bust of Nelson at Windsor Castle. The Crick-Smiths came to the project after a heated Twitter exchange about some of the most unusual objects ever brought to the BBC's Antiques Roadshow: two battered wooden columns, claimed to have been taken from Victory at the period of the battle. Unfortunately their work demolished the claim: the timbers are from a ship, but not Victory. Their research is part of the most comprehensive restoration project since the ship was built at Chatham and the findings of the research will be taken into account”. From Crick-Smith's own website are the following Youtube links if you enter them in you browser: https://youtu.be/9miVcHgylhk https://youtu.be/3O16e08S6tA It doesn't answer the question of just how far you can spread the research across the entire ship from such microscopic analysis without knowing what structural elements were analysed and in what quantity. Gary

Hi Dafi, Good colour match, if you want to go all the way you can have the colours mixed, in the thread ‘HMS Victory 2017 refit new-colours’ on this forum ‘michaelpsutton2’ quoted the Pantone colour references. I ordered the new black/grey and ochre for a test and the colour swatches are below. These are in an enamel low gloss. What you find is that the ochre is very susceptible to light and shading conditions, going from the dark ochre/buff to the pink. The third picture has a coat of satin gloss. Gary

Wow that’s ambitious, I’ll tag along on this one!

As a Yorkshireman I can honestly say money is the last thing we would think of, and the first 😁 Gary

Dafi, The 14 September entry logs what is applied to / painted on the ship, the other earlier entries are the stores received by the ship, so they are not additive. But your question still remains given the disproportionate amounts. Gary

Thanks Dafi, I’ll make a point of looking in. Gary

My bad Dafi, your right and the usage supports this: 8 NRNM 1064/83; Record number 2376. Another expense, entered by the Victory’s carpenter dated 18 August states: ‘To painting Boats the Quarter deck and Refreshing ye. Paint on the Ships Sides this Mo. [month]) 11’. The Paint and materials listed in the margin are as follows: ‘Paint White 95 lbs. Paint Yellow 24 lb. Paint Black 67 lbs. Oil 30 gallons. Brushes Six No.’ The carpenter’s entry dated 14 September reads: To painting the ships side after caulking, the Gunroom and Officers Apartments under the Awning and Quarter deck Waist &c. after Refitting and the paint and materials consumed for the above entry listed in the margin are given as: Yellow – 350 lbs; Black – 150 lbs; White – 450 lbs.; Oil – 47 gallons; Brushes – 20 in No.8 and Concerning the yellow currently used for the ship’s sides and other applications in the Victory, a letter dated 6 December 1805 from William Marsden, Secretary of the Navy Board, states that Commissioner Middleton, ‘submitted a proposal from Lord Nelson that the private ships in the fleet are painted three times a year and the flagships four times a year. The proportion of white paint to yellow is to be 6 lbs to 1 lb’.14 In short Nelson authorised a six-to-one mix of white and yellow, which would be so light as to verge on the colour cream. So the yellow / white mix must have been plastered on! Or the the black has better coverage. All above from Goodwin.

No argument on that one!

I guess because it was mixed by hand, other than by weight / volume there would be little consistency between successive coats, then all Ochers themselves vary immensely from light to dark, again no batch or quality control in those days 😮 , just the Mk1 eyeball. Then I suppose it depends where they sampled the ‘Salmon Pink’ from, I’m guessing an internal surface (Goodwin says some of the internal upper deck was yellow) as all the external planking will surely have been replaced long ago given all those refits and restorations, and if it was an internal surface was the yellow paint diluted as much as the outside? Too many variables, I guess we have to defer to the experts. Gary

Dafi I understand that the yellow was diluted extensively with linseed oil, which itself has a yellowish tinge, I doubt the black would be cut (diluted) as much, but it was to some extent as we know the hull colour was really a dark grey, so I’m not surprised the yellow quantities are lower. Actually Nelson thought the the yellow stripes were still too dark and wanted a much lighter colour, but Trafalgar got in the way and he was never to see this put in place. Gary

Going back to Goodwin's notes these are the paints supplied to Victory: " The overall analysis of paint related issues recorded in the carpenter’s accounts in the Victory in 1805 conclude the following points: 1. Lime and glue were employed for whitewashing the ship internally along the ship’s sides along the middle and lower gundecks and equally extensively throughout the orlop and within the hold. 2. Black varnish was applied for yards, tops, cross-trees and quite probably on the topsail and sheet bitts of each mast. 3. Linseed oil was mixed with the paint pigments. 4. Tar was applied for blacking the wales, especially at the ‘bends’, such as the main wale near the ship’s water line. 5. Black oakum was equally applied. The document is exceedingly thorough in accounting for all paint colours or pigments used. In this host of information there is a remarkable absence of reference to the red ochre paint that is supposedly synonymous with warships of the period. Red paint applied to the inner faces and edges of gun port lids, gun carriages, gun port sills, lintels and side facings is generally thought to be a predominant (and perhaps iconic) paint feature on the Admiralty Board ship models. Red is also evident in many paintings by recognized marine artists, for example, Brooking, Cleveley, Dodd, Loutherbourg, Luny and Pocock, to name but a few. These are the relevant stores supplied to Victory at Portsmouth on 31 August 1805: 1. White – 120 lb 2. Yellow – 34 lb 3. Black Varnish – 66 gallons 4. Glue – 12 lb 5. Lime – 8 bushels 6. Whitewash brushes – 6 Then on 2 September 1805: 1. Yellow – 350 lb 2. Black – 150 lb 3. White – 150 lb 4. Oil. – 47 gallons 5. White – 66 lb 6. Black – 13 lb 7. Yellow – 78 lb 8. Verdigris (sic) – 5 lb 9. Prussian Blue – 1 lb Then on 6 September 1805: 1. White – 86 lb 2. Yellow – 234 lb 3. Oil. – 2 1/2 gallons 4. Black Varnish – 66 gallons. lb” It may well be that they used the black varnish, which depending on dilution could be greyish and semi translucent, but who knows those gun carriage wheels have been replaced long since! Just to correct my note on the red paint I mentioned above Goodwin also says "No evidence has come to light indicating when the Victory changed her original red-painted inboard works to yellow ochre, but it is considered highly likely that she had red inboard works when she was the flagship of Admiral Sir John Jervis at the battle of St Vincent on 14 February 1797. Although the Victory could have adopted whitewash or yellow ochre at any time between early 1803 and 1805, the change most likely occurred when Thomas Hardy superseded Samuel Sutton". Certainly Turner's paintings does not show red, just a dark yellow ocher, and Turner went on board the Victory in December 1805 and January 1806 and would have witnessed her colour scheme first hand. Gary

Ronald, Ongoing research hasn’t identified the colours of gun carriages and wheels, but what we know is that the black hull is actually a deep slate grey (Victory’s new colours), so grey on the wheels wouldn’t be wrong, the raw paints were often mixed with other paints and oils so it is unlikely any of the colours were a deep black or deep yellow. Gary

Ronald, I would go with your personal choice for aesthetic or historical reasons. The ex-curator of HMS Victory Peter Goodwin examined the carpenters records preceding the Battle of Trafalgar and he identified that there was no red paint used, the colours throughout the ship were black, yellow, white, verdigris and a very small amount of Prussian Blue, all of which would usually be cut with linseed oil. This was published in a 2013 article of The Mariner’s Mirror (journal of the Society for Nautical Reearch). Chances are the carriages were yellow (ochre) with black wheels. Gary

Looking at the image the passage seems a bit abstract, is there a preceding series of notes that may give some context to these comments. Gary

You are reading it right, the ones in the waist are ‘lidless’. Gary

People will recognise Alert from the AOTS book so it will probably register easier with your target market, but can there be a Sprightly option to increase appeal?

Just catching up on this superb build. I’d never been a fan of the Corel cast ports, but I’ve changed my mind looking at your Bellona, the natural wood finish complements then nicely. Gary

If I’m not mistaken Chris has developed an Endeavour for Amati recently, but like the Victory its release date is somewhere in the future. Gary

Good to see you back Chris. A while ago on this forum you toyed with the idea of a 1:64 frigate, possibly a Leda, given there has to be a commercial side to your kits how about Shannon and Chesapeake - this would appeal to both sides of the pond. Gary

Caldcraft produce a 24pdr in 1:32 scale, it’s the only large scale cannon that I’m aware of, but it is expensive at US$41.41 for a single kit from Cornwall model boats. There are other cheaper large cannons on their website but their ‘shape’ isn’t necessarily authentic, but depends on whether that’s a consideration for you. Gary

Hi Lin, Lookin good, I’ll tag along, I’m also building the Trincomalee on and off for 10 years now, at 1:64 scale. Someday I’ll get around to posting som pics. Good luck at your rate of progress she will be in the water decades ahead of mine 🙂 If you need any help with plans or photographs let me know I’ve got most things covered, and if I get stuck I’m only 10 minutes walk from the ship herself. Gart

Hi Christian, Looking good. The chequered floor was usually a painted canvas, however the ‘Great Cabin’ was often decorated according to the Captains own taste. Gary

Caldercraft offer them here for download: http://www.jotika-ltd.com/Pages/1024768/Manuals_Victory.htm Gary

I’ve had a kit of HMS Snake barely started for several years, during which time I’ve struggled to get back in to building, what has caught my imagination is a conversion using the Snake kit as a starting point. My plan is to convert the Snake kit into a Cruizer class ship sloop of 1828, also named HMS Cruizer, which may seem odd at first sight as there already is a Caldercraft kit of HMS Cruizer of 1797. Confused? Stay with it a moment and I’ll just put things in to context. HMS Cruizer (name class) of 1797 was a two masted brig sloop, which spawned over 100 ships predicated on the same basic design. HMS Snake was a 3 masted ship sloop based on the Cruizer design also of 1797, only 2 ship sloops were initially completed, although several of the brig sloops were later converted to ship sloops as the lessons of war, particularly those of 1812 showed the ship sloop rig to be more resilient to battle damage. In 1826 5 more of the Cruizer class were ordered, 2 of which were to be ship rigged, but the changes weren’t merely in the rig, the ship sloops were to be lengthened, as demonstrated on the plans still held by the National Maritime Museum (http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/83740.html): Plan ZAZ3949 (attached) “Scale: 1:48. Plan showing the body plans, sheer lines and longitudinal half-breadth for building Childers (1827), Cruizer (1828), Favorite (1829), Hyacinth (1829), Racehorse (1830) and Hazard (1837), all 18-gun flush-decked Ship Sloops similar to the Cruizer (1797) brig. The plan was cut in two along the midship section and a new piece inserted for the proposed (and approved) lengthening for the last four ships and the alterations to the mast positions as a result. Signed by Robert Seppings [Surveyor of the Navy, 1813-1832]” So, all I need to do is to cut the model in two and slap a bit in the middle! Or there may be more to it than that, not only lengthen it, but also re-position the gun ports, and add raised forward and aft platforms (similar to those flush platforms found on some of the earlier Cruizer models). Then there is the raising of the hawse holes, fashioning a new rudder, raise and re-model the stem, add 2 more Elm Tree pumps (4 shown on the inboard profile), and fabricate a bowsprit bed. After which there is the fitting out, I’ll be going with Stud anchor chain which will mean adding chain stoppers, and for the rig adding Trysail masts which are evident on HMS Pelorus - converted in 1826 from a brig sloop to a ship sloop so the rigging and masts are contemporary with the 1828 Cruizer. As to her career, Wikipedia states: “HMS Cruizer was a Snake-class ship sloop launched in 1828 for the British Royal Navy. The ship was built as a revival of the retired Snake-class ship-sloops. The Navy converted her to a brig in 1831, back to a ship in 1840, and sold her at Bombay in 1849. In 1839 Cruizer participated in the Aden Expedition along with the frigate HMS Volage and the two British East India Company (EIC) vessels, the sloop HCS Coote and the schooner HCS Mahi. Cruizer saw extensive service during the First Opium War. She participated in the Battle of Whampoa, the Second Battle of Chuenpi, the Battle of Canton, the Battle of Amoy, and the Battle of First Bar. During the Battle of Whampoa, Maj. General Hugh Gough, commander of the British army during the First Opium War, personally directed the land assault on Whampoa island from Cruzier's deck. In January 1841, Cruizer recaptured the whaling brig Pilot. The local inhabitants in the Nicobar Islands had captured her in December 1840 and murdered most of her crew. Pilot was taken into Singapore.” I’m going to swap-out a lot of the kit supplied wood and use Swiss Pear, Box and Ebony, I won’t be double planking, but will infill between the bulkheads with balsa. Painted components will be kept to a minimum. Fittings are from Cladercraft, Syren and RB Models. For reference, as well as the basic Snake instructions, and the excellent Snake and Cruizer logs elsewhere on the forum, I’m using the NMM plans and profiles, as well as the book by EW Petrejus - Modelling the Brig-of-War Irene: A Handbook for the Building of Historical Ship-Models. There are then a number of models and paintings available at the NMM and elsewhere to tap into. So the first job – strip off the few planks I’ve got in place and cut the carcass in half. But that’s for the next log instalment. All welcome to follow along, just don't expect a fast pace, I've taken early retirement and am starting the travel bucket list. Gary

Spot on! 👍