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ClipperFan

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  1. ClipperFan
    Rob, I too am impressed at the sheer humility of Michael Mjelde as we literally dissect work that has been published and in circulation since 1970. I think it gives me even more respect for Mike (the name he wrote me that he's s most comfortable with) in his willingness to actively collaborate with us in order to more accurately reconstruct Glory's true appearance. As for our way forward. Just like Donald McKay was a naval engineer, my feeling is by adhering as closely as possible to a scientifically valid approach to recreating Glory's dimensions, we too should be able to capture her true beauty.
  2. ClipperFan
    Rob, thanks for the compliment. As we gradually nail down all the specifics of McKay's last Clipper with the generous help of Michael Mjelde foremost authority on "Glory of the Seas" I personally feel like we will finally have the most exhaustively researched recreation of a McKay Clipper in history. This is getting very exciting.
  3. ClipperFan
    Rob, it's a well known fact that all of McKay's vessels were described as not being duplicates of each other. However, his building and construction techniques remained the same. That's probably why I struggle so much with a 22.30 Bowsprit steeve. It's not a workable number in inches to feet. To get that requires an odd 4.91 inches to 12 inches. None of the other McKay ships have anything like that. Meanwhile, if (again that's if) Glory's resting "on an even keel" after her Dry Dock repairs, as she seems to be in the lower photo on page 227 and the fresh, sharp new extreme close up side image, than her Bowsprit steeve is most likely 20.60 degrees, or 4 1/2 inches to the foot. I've just sent the same email to Mike too to get his impressions.
  4. ClipperFan
    Rob, a downside to MacLean's "airy fairy" language is that while he does give a distinctive impression of what he's seen, it's long on praise and woefully short on details we're searching for. That being said, by researching other vessels McKay built, some more specifics come to light. That's why I've gone back to "Staghound" and other Clippers to fill in the blanks as best as I can. Case in point, I believe MacLean gave far more specifics to "Staghound" since she was an entirely new model and the largest merchant vessel in the world. While her sheer was 2 1/2 feet, her Bow was specifically described as being 5 feet higher than her Stern. We have to "guesstimate " Stern height, gradually bring it down 2 1/2' and then it's 5' higher at the Bow. If we assign a modest 3' height to her Stern, that puts "Staghound's Bow a minimum of 8'. While it's more challenging to do this with "Glory of the Seas" I believe we can get very close by a similar process. In this case, my choice of scenes is the 1877 San Francisco dock image. Her graceful sheer is obvious and distinctive. I estimate her Stern to be about 3' higher than the lowest portion of her Hull at the center of the Main Shrouds. Another complication Michael Mjelde explained to me is the alternate approach used to correct the hogging of Glory's keel. Instead of the more complex 'sanding & settling' method employed by the US Navy to restore "Old Ironsides" those who repaired Glory simply added shims to the uneven sections of her Hull in order to even out her keel. As I understand that method, in essence they were permanently altering her Hull to accomodate the flexing of her keel. I have to admit having an issue with the 22.30 degree steeve. My basis is that historically not one of McKay's other Clipper Ships had a documented steeve of such a high angle of inclination. Actually "Staghound" again had a documented steeve of 4 1/2" to 1', 20.60 degrees. Every other vessel I've found had a more modest steeve of 4" to 1' 18.40 degrees. Meanwhile a steeve of 22.30 degrees requires 4.91" to 1' which just doesn't match anything else McKay has done.
  5. ClipperFan
    A few years ago, when it was still available online as a pdf file, I saved a copy of the hogging diagram of Glory done by a naval engineer; probably the same report Mike's referring to. From what I remember of it, most of the hogging was towards the rear third of the ship. If anything the Bow was more severely verticle which would also affect Bowsprit steeve. That brings us back to relying on published descriptions and exact dimensions at the time of her launch, which fortunately are quite detailed. According to the article's writer, most likely the same Duncan MacLean of the Boston Daily Atlas. "Her bow has a bold, dashy rake" He adds that Glory had "a seven foot sheer which is graduated her whole length with sufficient spring towards the ends to lend an air of lightness and buoyancy to her general outline." In a more detailed description of McKay's Extreme Clipper "Staghound" Duncan MacLean describes that her Bow was 5 feet higher than her Stern. Considering that Glory was specifically designed to traverse some of the most challenging seas on the planet, rounding Cape Horn where two great opposing ocean currents collide, Atlantic and Pacific, it makes sense that Glory's Hull would have a somewhat higher Bow to take on those seas. About the best option I can see is to use Glory's figurehead as a measuring device and estimate as closely as possible her height at her Bow. The closest Hull estimate I can make is at her Starboard loading dock. Getting a closer look from the clearest image so far in the Peabody "Poseidon" book, I now count 10 strakes from her waterline to the bottom of the docking port, 4 strakes make up the side and 7 more to get to lower main molding. That's 21 strakes in total, each being 6 1/2" that's just about 12'. Closest observation of the height to the Monkey rail molding is 6 1/2 feet (comparing height of her figurehead to upper molding). That brings her height to about 18 1/2' or so above her waterline at the Docking Port. Add in 22' waterline to keel and she's 40 1/2' at this point. Her lowest point of sheer is around the center of her Main shrouds, my best observation from her 1900s San Francisco Dock image. Michael Mjelde published the Main Mast dimension as 40' in his cross-section. Adding 7' to that brings an estimated Bow height of 25'.
  6. ClipperFan
    Rob, to my knowledge, the only method to correct hogging in wooden ships is to place them in Dry Dock, lay the keel on wooden piers full of sand and once the dock is drained completely, gradually drain sand out of the piers to allow weight of the ship to naturally straighten out the keel. Mike told to me in an email that she had a 16" inch hog, according to dry docking records which was corrected when she was repaired and repainted weeks earlier. My suspicion that this was the Dry Dock location is based mainly on those long skinny logs floating by her Starboard side in the lower picture on page 227. I can find no other logical explanation for those to be there. I have no confirmation of that.
  7. ClipperFan
    Here's page 227 of Michael Mjelde's first publication "Glory of the Seas." As he said, all 3 scenes are indeed of the same location. A huge and quite distinctive "Seattle Grain Co (?)" storage shed, which has identical 15 pane oblong windows, separated by a small divider in the upper roof level can be seen on the Port side of Glory in all three images. There's also a consistent run of wooden piers below which line what could be a Dry Dock in each picture. That would explain all the long skinny logs floating along her Starboard side. I've sent an email to Mike to see if he can verify my potential Dry Dock conclusion. I'll let you know what his reply is.
  8. ClipperFan
    Rob and everyone else, I have to set the record straight. The latest razor sharp close up of Glory's bow and figurehead Mike so generously shared with me, was taken from the adjacent pier to the north not as I erroneously remembered "from across the bay." My apologies for the mistake.
  9. ClipperFan
    Rob, this was sent to me by Michael Mjelde in my morning email. He also said it was taken from across the bay as described on page 227 of his first publication "Glory of the Seas." I haven't had a chance to read that page yet.
  10. ClipperFan
    Same image, rotated with white border removed.
  11. ClipperFan
  12. ClipperFan
    Vladimir, My apologies if I confused you. The background is painted black, like the rest of Glory's upper topsides were. Carvings and moldings were gold leafed.
  13. ClipperFan
    Vladimir, that's beautiful work. Now imagine that Black background being highlighted by 24 karat gold leaf. It must have been something to see.
  14. ClipperFan
    Here are 2 port Bow images of Glory's figurehead taken in 1900. While most of her flowery carved arch carvings have been washed away, there's a small amount just under her left foot and some weathered remains a little further back. Her flowing ribbon work has fared much better and remains almost entirely intact. Another observation I've made is that the curving outline of the Cut Water arch isn't equal across the whole distance. It echoes the Naval Hood arch above. It's wider at it base, narrower as it approaches its apex below Athene's feet. Her Naval Hoods moldings don't match each other either. There are 3 moldings below which get thinner as they progress to the tip, while there are only two above. The last image is a port view of the outhermost end of Glory's Naval Hoods terminating behind her Figurehead. Quality is poor but comes from a small photo from a contemporary newspaper.
  15. ClipperFan
    Vladimir, I've enlarged the original 1869 Glory on the Ways scene to get as close as possible to the beautifully carved flowery arch on her Cut Water surmounted by the graceful flowing ribbons embossed on her Naval Hoods above. Considering these were then 24 karat gold plated must have made an impressive sight to see in person. Over her lifetime, almost all of her flowery carvings were washed away from her Cut Water below the Goddess Athene. Her Naval Hoods with their graceful interweaving ribbons survived far better, most likely since they flared out to a degree, being very closely aligned to her Hull before narrowing down to a point behind her Figurehead. You're observation about Athene's mount is to be commended too. Her left foot rests comfortably on a curved ball reminiscent of billet heads on other vessels. Due to a limited amount of images available it's hard to tell for sure. It looks to me like her right foot is lifted almost as if taking a step forward and it rests on the arch of a curving vine below. The two ornamental devices combine in a graceful sideways "s" curve. Another good image is of the close up of Glory's Bow from 1900. My best attempt at capturing these carvings are from 2009. The prow is a bit too aggressive but carving details are fairly accurate to her original appearance.
  16. ClipperFan
    Vladimir, Some observations about your tracing of the 1907 San Pedro Bow. Glory's Naval Hoods come to a point a short distance, maybe 18" behind her figurehead. That's to allow room for her flowing scarf held in Athene's extended right hand. While most of her right arm's gone, most of her hand remains. That's probably due to it being carved directly out of her hair bun. If you pay careful attention to the two Bobstay mounts on her Hull, you'll see they're just slightly behind the where you drew your curve. The curve on the hull continues through those two Bobstay mounts and then straightens out almost but not quite vertically before it goes into the water. I believe a shadow of a post on the Pier behind her Bow is what has been causing confusion at this junction I'm going to buy tracing paper so I can retrace these images more accurately. My original traces were done by holding the print up, tracing it behind and then reversing the photos to get my results.
  17. ClipperFan
    Vladimir, I'm thrilled to see the point I've been struggling to make is gradually being recognized. While it's nice to take greatest credit, my feelings are it's misplaced to a degree. This is a collaboration and there's lots of credit to be shared. Rob deserves a lot of credit for his decision to move beyond modifying Revell's Cutty Sark hull to creating a genuine version. That move got the attention of Arina "theauthorsdaughter". She than facilitated the wonderful meeting of her dad, Michael Mjelde (whom I consider a celebrity for his lifelong research on "Glory of the Seas") My vote for who deserves greatest credit is Michael Mjelde himself. His humility in accepting that published drawings could possibly be inaccurate has been the greatest contribution to promoting our efforts. By sending me much clearer prints of Glory, he has made everything else, still ongoing, possible
  18. ClipperFan
    Here's a quick tracing of Glory's stern, done as a accurately as possible based on available photographic information. While there's no specific dimension given for Stern overhang (sole example I could find is "Staghound" which had a stern which projected just 7' from her sternpost) it was generally noted too, that all of Donald McKay's vessels had short Sterns to prevent possibility of foundering. It's well suspected that British Tea Clipper 'Ariel' was lost this way. Look at British Tea Clipper "Cutty Sark" and you'll see the significant difference between the elegant finley formed Yacht like Stern compared to the more rugged business like McKay Sterns.
  19. ClipperFan
    Rob, We're definitely getting closer but I think there's still more refinement to be done. Here's a direct tracing of the Bow element from Mike's more detailed photo. As she was partially in shadows I had to approximate the Figurehead Athene's head. Even though this is in my estimate overall the least distorted image of Glory that has been revealed so far, I noticed that the distance between her Figurehead and inner Bobstay mount, which you've determined are equal is foreshortened just a bit. My intent is to trace all 4 photos, to get a sense of her Hull proportions and then use all specific measurements we've so carefully developed to recreate her most accurately.
  20. ClipperFan
    Rob, as we get closer to her true dimensions I believe the entire beauty of her design will show through. After all, even riding high like she is in her last pic, she's still an impressive ship. As I've said all along, my goal is to recreate Donald McKay's last Clipper as a accurately as possible. By the way, your picture isn't visible, you'll need to repost it.
  21. ClipperFan
    Rob, it sounds like we're both describing the same phenomena two different ways, sort of like "you say poh-tah-to & I say poh-tay-to". Same problem, two similar approaches to identifying it. If I'm correct, I think what you're calling "perception" I've been referring to as "perspective distortion." Basically an object changes it's shape based upon relative distance of an observer: near or far, angle of observation: above or below horizon and relative position: side, front, rear, etc. As an artist, my eye always pays attention to this so that I can more a accurately reproduce on 1 dimension: paper or canvas what I see in 3 dimensions. That way you avoid a child's drawing of a house, where front & side are equally represented on a drawing. Cute but not realistic. To me the easiest solution to this challenge of, let's call it "perceptive perspective distortion" is employing a scientific method of using angles and specific measurements to most accurately rebuild what we're seeing from multiple vexing angles. We now know a lot of specifics a out exact distances of her Bowsprit, her Figurehead etc. Those measurements won't lie to us. As you see, I've included 4 full images of old "Glory" to demonstrate how this phenomena still persists. What I see in her 1869 East Boston fitting out scene is a stern that seems to be as high, if not higher than her Bow, which is sharply verticle with a stubby "beak" and very short bowsprit. The 1907 image (which I favor not because her Bow is "faster" but because it's the closest to a true broadside view of her Hull. Now her Stern is noticeably lower than her Bow. However she hardly resembles the same vessel pictured in 1869. If you looked at both images side by side, without knowing these were the same Ship, would you know? The 3rd picture of Glory which I reversed to align all images, appears to reveal an even more pronounced Bow and now the Stern looks much lower. It reminds me how if you look at Goal Posts in a football field, you know darn well both are of equal height and dimension but the one at the other end looks so much smaller. Finally the 1922 Glacier Fish Hull is barely recognizable as the same Clipper Ship from over a half century ago. Notice though, all images show a graceful semicircular curve at the Cutwater and all demonstrate a long sheer across the entire Hull.
  22. ClipperFan
    Rob, If you just trace Glory's 1907 bow details and compare it to your proposed revised Hull, I think you'll see what I'm talking about.
  23. ClipperFan
    Rob, is this your 1":50' small scale replicas you mentioned earlier? I'll take this on to give you my alternate vision using as much of the dimensions and relationships we've been unearthing in this project. As always, I mean no offense but your Bow still looks too stubby, especially in comparison to Glory's 1907 San Pedro image. To demonstrate what to me appears to be a more sweeping Cutwater, I've included a series of Bow shots. The 1907 shot still represents the closest photographic image to a bold "dashy rake" described by the newspaper writer who viewed her upon launch. The next 1912 silhouette, is reversed to make it easier to identify similarities. There's definite observer distortion since the photographer is much closer. Still the angle of the figurehead and projecting Naval Hood, at least to me, is more pronounced than your revised Hull design appears to be. The next image is again reversed to align with all others. It's most likely sometimes in the 20s as Glory is now a full factory canning vessel. If you look at the faded waterline she's clearly on a stern down attitude, most likely due to an uneven balance of heavy equipment in her holds. My single sketch is the closest approximation to that scene. The last picture is the extreme close up in drydock 1912. It's probably the best shot of her lovely figurehead but only captures a small amount of her curved Cutwater. I hope these help steer you more in the direction I see Glory's truly beautiful form emerging.
  24. ClipperFan
    Rob, agreed. In fact it's also clearly evident in the most recent Starboard Bow close up that the inner Jibboom slims down when it squares off. From the position of the Bowsprit bands it looks like the first 6' are beveled at a very gradual angle before rounding out. A surprising feature of Frigate USS Constitution is that her Jibboom had steps let into the upper section to facilitate sailors heading out to handle rigging and sails. It's actually a very sensible arrangement and it wouldn't surprise me if something similar was done in Merchant sailing Ships too. As for masts being sprung, if you've read passages of Clipper Ships especially McKay's, Captains were constantly dealing with upper masts being sprung at the hounds. In fact in her record setting maiden voyage around the Horn from NY to San Francisco of 89 days, for a large portion of her incredibly swift voyage 'Flying Cloud' was sailing with a lot of her upper masts and sails on deck until the Ship's Carpenter and crew managed to repair them and remount them. When she was limping along in this condition, the rest of the vessel had to make due under reduced sails to ease up on stress to damaged rigging. Imagine being a passenger on board looking up to see large amounts of sky where masts, yards and sails should have been....
  25. ClipperFan
    Rob, I suspect her Bowsprit is elevated due to loss of the extra weight of her 31' Jibboom. Chances are when she was fully rigged for sailing, her Bowsprit would have been cinched down tight to the Naval Hoods. In fact I believe Donald McKay had a somewhat unique Bow design that he jealously hid. Duncan MacLean described this area as being so solidly constructed that if a massive wave washed away the Bowsprit, her Hull would still remain intact. My suspicions go back to illustrations of Clipper 'Lightning' which leave this entire area completely blank.

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