Egilman

Thank you Michael for stopping in here... It's appreciated.... Love your work btw....

Having done New England style 18th century timber framing in real life, (for restoring/rehabbing/building old barns, it's it's own art form) doing it in miniature is another level of precise, and what they do on ships? I really don't know if I could replicate such timbering work in real life much less in quarter scale..... Yes it is very humbling indeed.....

Thanks for the link Craig... The model is almost 17" long that needs the foil treatment... (the fuselage mainly taking two full sheets) At 6" x 11.5" I would need a minimum of three sheets, four if I expect errors and yeah being it's me doing it, I would expect errors.... So a three pack of base chrome and a single of matte aluminum... but they are out of matte..... then I would have to figure out if it needs a transparent filter coat to cut down the shiny to a scale appearance..... More research needed...... Thank you.... EG

Agreed on all counts, the stand, which is a display/storage stand, would at least be a cross bracketed Pratt truss in rectangular tube steel. That engine is at least a half ton of metal.... And yeah, it's worth restating as many times as possible, Beautiful Work!!!! The only thing I would like is on one of his builds he goes thru the step by step process and show how and what he uses to get those finishes.... especially the white molded UHMD plastic parts.... one of the most difficult finishes to replicate, harder than BMF.....

YEA YEA YEA PLEASE!!!!! We need to expand the Miniature Masons Guild, sign up some apprentices and start training..... +100 votes for this.... we need more..... (with the way the world is going we may need the knowledge in the real context in the very near future)

Yep that's my absolute last option fall back position although on a model this size it will be a very expensive thing to do... Bare Metal Foil isn't cheap..... and I'm not in the kitchen foil club, I think it looks completely out of scale.... and has it's own issues as well.... Silver leaf is an option, but there is almost no info in using it to replicate polished metal... (I haven't really done the research into that as it would be even more expensive than the foil) Thanks Craig for trying to help sort this and figuring out the options.... It's much appreciated...

I've always got a plan brother, even if it involves the occasional binning of a disaster.... This is far from the binning stage at this point....

I guess we were getting a lot of traffic from the ship builders seeing what was going on here.... And yeah they had to make a distinction.... This is after all the Nautical Research's Guild's forum and Ship modeling is the backbone of that forum.... Not a general modeling site.... So the response is appropriate..... The thing is even if we have to do a bit more legwork, it is still the best modeling forum around IMHO and what we become is that little hidden corner gem of a spot where all are actually welcome... It's the only modeling forum that actually practices what they preach..... the more we post, the more we will draw others through the search engines it ups their hits and brings people to ship modeling in a way I'm sure they didn't expect. So I can appreciate their need to stay focused on their main mission, but am glad they can see the benefit of keeping this little corner of their world open for us.... Best modeling site on the net I say.... EG

Thanks Ed, but in the lessons learned and re-learned department, it is best to ask first before you spent hours and hours beating you head against the wall..... I thought I learned that one years before...... I guess not.... But I only have myself to thank for all this work I now have to do.... But that is part of the adventure of modeling.... Anyway, I needed to paint the wings first and get some gloves for handling it so it all for the best.... a change in approach.... I located a couple of cans of aluminium plate and they are on the way... They also reminded me of the process for brush painting the testors metalizers so I went ahead and bought some Stainless steel and Titanium for doing the aft fuselage panels that need it.... I'll probably be happier in the long run with it this way...... No point in being demoralized, if this is the worst thing that happens I'm doing good...... Just a slight detour on the journey to finishing my first BMF airplane.... Onward.....

Yeah, and a decent airbrush..... (chuckle) Actually I"m in the middle of stripping all the old metal and varnish finish off down to the gloss black paint....... So much for the indestructible artists varnish... IPA takes it right off........ Probably have to throw a coat of primer on it again.... Still working on/researching a solution for the BMF.... so far, without an airbrush there is only one product in the spray realm..... Testors Plate Aluminum Buffing Metalizer..... There is another way, Bare Metal Foil.... but that has it's own issues to deal with I've been told a similar method is spray glue and kitchen aluminum foil will do the job also.... I've talked to two modelers who have won contests with BMF finished airplanes and they say Testors is their go to for BMF finishes on airplanes. But there is a caveat, you HAVE to wait for them to fully cure... 18-24 hours after spraying before you buff them out. if you try to buff them out before that, they will come off on your fingers..... So once I get this clean, we are going to try again.... They agreed, Uschi's metal powders are great at creating polished metal finishes, but you can only use them for small parts or parts that aren't going to be handled and not for overall final finishes.... in fact none of the burnishing metal powders are..... Anyway, onwards... I will get this done... one way or the other... EG

I had a 12 hr blackout yesterday 6AM on the dot until 6PM on the dot..... so far that has been it... Trace route shows the ping making it through Tacoma, then Seattle, but when it hit Chicago, Nothing, deader than a doornail nothing on multiple attempts.... I suspect they were doing internet backbone server upgrades or something of that nature.... and another thing, they all went to the same server..... which I thought was something the internet avoided... Anyway the modem is certified by the ISP to be functioning correctly (after several Xfinity restarts) they don't know what happened either but suspect the same as I do.... someone had a backbone server node offline for a while.... The thing that stumps them is why the internet didn't re-route the request to another node.... They have started an inquiry into why.... Strange things happening ......

Just a humorous note... I searched "Sealing "Uschi's" metal powders" in Google, and this thread came up as the #3 result!!! People try for years to get on the front page of a google search, we made it without even trying.... {chuckle}

This one? I think your going to like it..... I could have picked up the full interior version, but I passed on it as well... The tracks alone look to be several hundred parts... (probably an exaggeration, but they do look like that much)

They did make a selection in rattle can, four of the 16 different colors i believe, There were also non-buffable, brushable lacquer versions and there is a technique for using the airbrush versions them with a brush..... I just have to remember what it was... And hope I can find someone with an old stash willing to part with a few... Testors metalizers have been out there for 25+ years, it was the announcement some 15 years ago of them being discontinued that caused these other companies to jump into the market...... I know the airbrush versions don't adhere very well also... It was one of their failings that a lot of modelers complained about... and like all other powder based spray on finishes they darken when sealed..... Testors metalizers I'm familiar with.... They don't give as good a surface representation as the Uschi powders though, that was the biggest draw to the powders, the accurate polished finish they give... Shame they can't be sealed... (or I haven't discovered the right technique yet) Thanks.... still looking...

Thank you Craig, but I've seen them. I know everyone likes the presentation and he's not using the alclad base black lacquer that everyone seems to have problem with from time to time. That being said, what he does is nice, but it's also not what my minds eye says is a bare metal aluminium finish.... A preference thing I know, and his presentation is kinda nice, but you have to use an airbrush... which was a point of what I'm trying to accomplish, doing an accurate BMF without one...... My head is running towards the old standby of Testors buffing aluminium plate in rattle can if I can find some.... Thank you very very much for the search effort.......

Yeah I looked him up, he mentions it a few times, but offers no real definitive examples of uses or applications..... he still posts occasionally but the last was about a year ago....

I researched Alclad before I started this and the issues with it I decided I didn't want to go in that direction. Besides it requires an airbrush which I don't have, the powders gave hope for not needing one... The same thing with AK Interactive paints.... I"m currently looking for some old stocks of Testors buffing metalizer lacquers... I wanted to stay away from lacquers if I could but it looks like that isn't going to be possible.... If I can find some, several came in spray can which would probably be a stronger finish with some surface bite.......

Yeah I was thinking about that as well. But the problem is the powders are not fixed to the surface, they just lay on top of it... Surface cohesion is the term for it nothing "attaches" the powder to the finish. touch it and it comes off for the same reason liquids lift, discolor and move it.... It would keep the hand oils off the surface though and the damage would be reduced, but it would still be there slowly ruining the finish.... And then you still have to decal over it.... more liquids....

Except the varnish lifts the powder off the surface thereby darkening the varnish to a darker grey.... I"ve yet to find a liquid sealer that doesn't to this.... It's the ticket for accurate BMF, IF you can find a sealer that works...

Hey brother Thank you, it isn't going to work unfortunately, you still have decals to put on the aluminum surface and any liquid you put on it including water is going to move the buffed on metal..... This is why even lightly brushing it with perfectly clean hands leaves finger oil marks..... You can't put anything over it... So the truth is it doesn't matter what is done first, you cannot preserve the metal finish using Uschi's metal powders....... I"m sure they have their uses for fine detail work, but for an overall finish they are out... And that is sad, cause they do such a beautiful, accurate metal finish.... EG

Well, it's why we do these type of things, try out other products.. I think we now know why this hasn't been used for BMF's on models. (at least not that I can find) The finish is toast and has to come off... The tape peeled it right down to the gloss sealed black paint... Which means that the only thing keeping this on the model is surface cohesion. The powder doesn't really stick to anything like paint does..... But I believe I know how it gets it's surface shine now not that it matters any... and why it turns dark when you try to seal it. It's never going to work for a BMF on a model.... not possible... As far as removing the finish, IPA takes it off, right down to the sealed black paint... might take a little light scrubbing, but other than the mess no sweat.... I may do a little more testing with these powders to find if there is a modeling product that will seal it without lifting it... That's why it turns dark when you seal it, the sealer lifts the powder off the surface because it is breaking the surface cohesion and suspending the powder in the sealer so it turns the original color of the powder... Dark dark grey..... but is still glossy from the sealer itself and retains some of it's shine. I don't suspect that there is a solution.... Yeah I've been saving that walkaround for a while since it is an early "C" model it's exactly what I'm representing... and the experienced pilot commentary is wonderful also... Anyway, figuring what the next course of action is here so it will be a bit before another update... I'm not giving up on her, just having a setback... EG

Yep freshly polished, they looked like a mirror.... That's not what I'm going for.... This is more along the lines of what I'm going for..... But I don't think I"m going to get it in any case... When they weren't freshly polished they took on the whitish haze of aluminum while retaining a bit of reflectivity.... which in bright sunlight would give it a bluish cast... But I"m pretty sure I'm not going to be able to do it.... I was going to mask off the fuselage and paint the wings before I polished it again... this is how far I got... That's lightly grabbing frisket masking tape just touched then pulled for repositioning.... took the finish right along with it.... Tore off the finish without any pressure at all.... so I"m going to have to figure another way... this showed a lot of promise to do an accurate metal finish...... But it's just too fragile to work with..........

Yeah all those polished aluminum fuselages have that whitish tinted blueish reflective look, that is what I'm aiming for, if I can preserve it...

Thank you Lou.... There is one pic I posted that even remotely resembles that CGI glowing spaceship and I took it deliberately to capture the sun reflection, I had a reason and in the right position that is exactly how an F-104 or any other polished bare aluminum metal airplane looked...... The rest of the pics looked darned close to the real thing... If your talking about those tiny what looks like individual panels, (they really aren't) I think that would be next to impossible to replicate. And the panels on the rear fuselage, those aren't heat discolored they are a different metal altogether.... The proof of this is in all the full color photos of these birds in Vietnam in painted camo. (including that different colored tail) you don't see the camo paint discoloring and burning off like you do on an F-100... They had a system of bypass airflow which kept the outer fuselage panels relatively cool while in flight and cool enough when on the ground so you could touch them with the engine running... they were warm yes, but not warm enough to burn..... I haven't found out yet what metal they were made of, but there were three bands, two outer narrow bands and a middle wide one. I'm pretty sure the inner band was stainless, and I believe the two outer panels are titanium..... But I haven't found out yet and not all of them had the same panel patterns... That aircraft is #13269 of the 69th fighter training squadron out of Luke AFB in '68-69 (the Fighting 69th) and is an F-104G so the tail panels wouldn't match anyway..... I have a pic of 57-0915, the sister ship to 57-0914 which is currently on display at the Lockheed Palmdale plant.... Currently in overall aircraft grey, (too expensive to keep it in bare metal) they have left the tail in it's natural finish, a steel band, a silver colored band and another steel band.... This, (along with 57-0914) was one of the two aircraft used to win the William Tell trophy by Cpt. Toffieri.... and is what I need to copy, if I can.... But to answer your question, I haven't figured that one out yet.....

Ok, another set of shots with two layers of metal... We had a bright sunny morning today so I figured that I would take it outside and see what it looks like in real natural light.... She looks the part for sure.. But, in figuring out how to seal it I screwed it up a bit, (very very easy to do, finger oils just ruin the finish even accidentally) So I've resealed it cause I can't currently handle it in BMF, it destroys the finish... As you can see, it goes back to being dark.... So the way forward is to paint off the wings, then when they are finished mask them off and redo the metal coat... all the while doing more testing on a clear finish that won't destroy the polished metal look... Otherwise this has been a huge waste of time... EG