DaveBaxt

With my new found knowledge of working out the sizes of thread ie rope is the circumference and the masts are diameters I have attempted to use both the above books to work out the diameter of the main mast . I have used Mondfeld in my last build but unsure if this is the best book to use so I am now trying to use Lees book instead. The information I have at hand is the beam of the model which is 145mm from which I calculated the mast to be 2.23 x 145mm =323mm. Depending upon which figure you use, ie 1771 or pre 1771. When attempting to work out the diameter of the mast using Lees 9/10" for every three ft, of mast, which I thought should be easy to work out . Changing everything from metric to imperial and getting the full size as the model is 1;64 scale for some then working backwards changing it back to metric for some reason its not working out. The model in question is the Endeavour from Caldercraft and the dowl used for the main mast is 10mm so would expect it to be somewhere near this. I have also worked out the sizes using the Mondfeld book and this seems to work out a bit better and think this book may have been used by Caldercraft but would like to compare the numbers. By the way the figure for Mondfeld is 2.25x145mm for the same period so very little difference. The diameter of the mast is based on the 0.026 x length which is again easy to work out but is a bit under 10mm at 8.393mm. So quite a bit under 10mm.I am hoping someone could point me out where I am going wrong with my calculation. Hope all this makes sense, best regards dave

This seems to be a common problem with plywood. I had the same problem with my Caldercraft Endeavour. I tried all of the above and eventually did the following. Check my build log for the Endeavour Like Spyglass said try getting a repalacement first if that fails building supports for the keel and bulkheads worked for me once I fitted the deck before removing from a slipway. Good luck.

Thank you for explaining that to me and I appreciate the work you put into it and is a first class job. I don,t mean any disrespect as I am only a beginner and trying to work out how much of the small stuff I would need for a large 1:64 scale 18th century ship . Good luck and best regards Dave

I have seen these before and the product looks good. There are a number of different colours, including dark brown and black, beige and tan and I wonder which ones did you get and what are you using the different colours for, ie standing and running. Also I noitce they have both rope and cable which is interesting .So which one did you go for as they both look good?. Glad to hear you are happy with them and the price. When clicking on the Quantity box are you ordering in units of 1 meter in which case looks to be very expensive or have I got that wrong .I really wouldn,t know how much to order as I always seem to use a lot more than what is supplied by the kits. I do waste a lot though and need to be a bit more careful with it,Best regards Dave

Something else to add to my Library . Thank you again Allan

No I have not seen this before so thank you for that. Best regards Dave

Thank you again Allan for what has given me something I can now work with and progress. Best regards Dave

Thakn you Gregory for your input and what seems to me to be a sensible approach .

Allan The only information I have at hand is that the Endeavour was fitted with 6 x 4!b guns the bore or length I do not know. Accordeing to Lees the \Breaching rope is 0.95 of the bore again think this will be circumference rather than diameter. Also I do not know what size guns are fitted on 5th and 6th rated ships and where to get this information from. The other gun tackle in Leess for 5th and 6th rated ships is a fixed size of 2" . The Entering ropes are 0.125 which I think is again related to the Mainstay but not sure if this is the tackle for drawing the guns back into the ship. So unfortunately at the moment I am still at a loss and unsure of where to look. Best regards Dave

yeah that would work out. Thank you for your input. Best regards dave

Thank you once again Allan for your quick response.I now have more information from lees book and they do give sizes of ropes in relation to the sizes of main stays. However the main stays are proportionate to their masts. ie the lower main stay is 0.5 of the mast. page number 185 What I don,t understand is that the model mast is 10mm in diameter so that makes the main stay 5mm and the Tiller rope 0.25mm (page number 188) and the rudder pendent 0.4 and rudder pendent falls 0.2. Again these are all in proportion to the main stay and does not make any sense to me. I also don,t know what the rudder pendent falls are. I am assuming the rudder pendent is what are attached to the blocks on which the tiller rope goes through and the tiller rope is what goes around the wheel drum. Gun tackles are also given but again all is in proportion to the main stay for 5th and 6th rate ships. larger ships give an exact size of 2.5 inches. Brea ch ropes 0.5 of the bore of thegun Muzzle lashing usually 2" Entering ropes 0.125 but not sure what this means Is it 0.125 of the bore or the main stay. All very confusing . Perhaps it is me reading this wrong if you know what I mean.Best regards Dave

I have found something under Rudder pendants in Lees book for Micellaneous rope sizes page 188 sizes compared to the main stay I have also found rope sizes for gun tackle for 5th and 6th rate ships. How can I use this information for the Endeavour as I believe she was not rated, but could be wrong. Best regards Dave

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum and should be in another. Also apologies is this has been asked a few times but I am unable to find anything when doing a search. I have a number of books non of which have given me the information including Less, RC Anderson, and Monfield allof which give the sizes of rope for rigging. So where do I look. Which books would give me this information? Hopefully there is also an online resource that I could maybe use, however if it in another book I need to buy, so be it. Are there any calculation that are easy to work out based gun sizes and ship size/ rudder size or something which is available or is this information available in AOTS Endeavor which is the vessel I am building but would probably not help me in the future. Best regards Dave

I wish I had a pound for every.................

No pressure then . One issue I had with widening the mizzen channel is that the chain plates supplied were now no longer long enough but fortunately I had some extra ones from a spare etched brass sheet I have. You might have to return the favour when I start on the Vanguard models which might be next up. Best of luck Andrew with your current build I am sure you could give me a good few tips. Best regards Dave

The channels and the lowerdead eyes are completed after soldering the chain links to the strops and then pinning them to the hull. My first attempt at soldering the links using my new soldering torch and silver solder paste which turned out quite well after using the smallest amount of paste possible on the end of a cocktail stick after pickling the pieces for 15 minuites to remove any oxides and finger marks etc.. It was quite difficult getting the strops to fit into the grooves on the channel and getting the little tabs to fit into the holes especially the very small ones but eventually I got the hang of it I also increased the width of the mizzen channel to the same as the main channel in the hope that the mizzen shrouds would not touch the cap rail but unfortunately they still did. So I will need to increase the height of the mizzen mast or I might slightly increase the height of all three. According to Zu Monfeilds book the History of modern ship the length of the masts are suggested by Caldercraft are correct if measuring from the bottom of the keel . However if the heel of the masts are slightly higher then this would then give the necessary height to give the reqiured clearance of the mizzen shrouds. Also according to'The rigging of ships in the days of the Spritsail by RC Anderson suggest the Mizzen cap should be half way up the fore masthead. However I still have not decided whether to adopt the above or try Shipaholics idea of just raising the mizzen mast so that the cap is in line with the main lower mast top. This would also give me the shroud clearance I need ( see thread on I would just like to thank everyone who contibuted to that thread and helped to understand the different information that people are faced with when trying to build something which is authentic for that period but still works . All very fascinating . Here is a few photos of the channels and the dead eyes in place. I am quite happy with the results and how secure they seem compared to my last build the Bounty.

Ok Allan I think I might be making some progress or at least I think I know where Caldercraft are getting there mast lengths from. After consulting 'Historic Ship Models' by ZU Monfields book and using his figures of Mian Mast 2.480 x Breadth ( models breadth is 145 mm which equates to 380mm Fore mast 2.250 x 145 mm = 326mm and the mizzen mast 1.583 x145mm =229mm. Now taking the above drawing and using the bottom of the keel as the datum these measurements give an approximate height of the masts when the dowels are placed in the holes. The mizzen mast also equates to the Caldercraft height and would suggest this is also correct but falls well short of the drawing supplied by Shipaholic. I am not suggesting he is wrong in anyway and all very interesting stuff but this height still doesn't work for me and will still need to increase the mizzen height so the shrouds clear the cap rail. Looking at your drawing and taking where the heel of the mast is and I raised all three mast to a so the are raised say 20 mm I think the mizzen shrouds would then clear the cap rail. I am still not sure which way to go with this but will probably adopt shipaholics idea of just raising the height of the mizzen so the cap is inline with the lower main mast top. Again I would just like to thank everyone for there input and any further discussion is welcome. Best regards Dave

First of thank you Derek for your persistance and your patience .I can,t thank you enough . Hopefully now I will be nearer to understanding the formulae and will eventually be able to work out the size of the whole mast including the 3 componants the lower main mast , the op mast and the top gallant and the percentages. So am I right in thinking I can now work out the length of the lower mast being Main(whole mast) - top mast - topgallant - overlaps( mast heads) = lower mast. Allan Once again I thank you for your help. I am not sure what I can do with the drawing you have sent me but what I have noticed is where the measurements are taken from. Once I have figured out what Derek has been so kind to help me with and I have worked out what the length of the main mast is for my model can I not then put it up against my model using your base line which looks to beat the bottom of the false keel. Once I have the dimensions of the main mast I can hopefully work out the lengths of the other two mast and again these will be the whole mast . Hopefully I can then use Derek's proportions to work out the individual componants of each mast. Also Allan if I am still struggling perhaps you could send me the mast sizes 1:64 but I am not sure how that would work .Entually I hope to be able to figure all this out for future builds .I hope I am making sense of all this. Best regards Dave

I tried to work out the length of the Main mast using Lees formular of the length of the ship + the Maximum Beam( outside ) divided by to but rightly or wrongly have made a number of assumption. I have used the length between perpendiculars so I have came up with 324mm Mast length using Caldercraft drawing is 293mm. Although this looks to be longer than the calculations I have just made, my previous point is that the difference could be that the amount below the partners could be different . The amount the mast goes under the deck is governed by the recesss in the one of the bulkheads. Can I therefore assume that Caldercraft have the height above the deck correct or is there another calculation for the length of the partners or the length above the deck? Hope this makes sense.

I think I understand the teminology bu it is really nice to see it written down like that. So thank you for taking up your time for hunting that out for me as it is something I can keep and refer back to time and time again. Best regards Dave

Derek I have had a look at James Lees book and pages 44 & 65 and it clearly shows that the mizzen cap fall short of the main mast top and not as you and others are suggesting are level but look to be similar to the Caldercraft plans. However the only thing that seems to work for me at the moment is to either raise the height of the mizzen or increase the width of the mizzen channel. I have now already completed the latter but still there is very little clearance if any between the shrouds and the cap rail I we therefore need to increase the length of the mizzen mast so that the cap reaches the main mast top. I am also assuming that the mizzen mast head is of the correct proportions. At the moment I can only assume that Caldercraft have given me the correct lengths of the other masts ( hopefully the main mast is not too long haha) As yet I am nowhere near building the masts and therefore do not need to make them so sill have lots of time before I decide on what my mast lengths should be. I would just like to thank everyone for taking up their time to help me including your good self in what is truly a very complex subject. Maybe if I do some more calculations using Lees or other resources for all of the masts and then compare their heights from the keel I might have a better idea of their heights in relation to each other. Best regards Dave

Derek. Thank you for your quick response. When I say the height above deck . That is really the only thing I can measure . Allthough I can measure how what is below the deck but what does this tell me if anything. If all the measurements are taken from the bottom of the keel then I could follow. I must be missing something somewhere and perhaps need to study some more. When using the Caldercraft drawing They give the total length of 293 mm inlcuding the mast head. Now according to RC Andersons book The rigging of ships in the days of the sprit sail , the main mast is anywhere between 2 and 3 times the breadth of the ship . The breadth of my model is 145mm . So this works out fine if the mast is twice the breadth but is usually more if it is a smaller ship. So What does this actually tell me and how can I work out the hieight of the mast above the keel or how high above the deck or any base line to work from. If I use the Caldercraft measurement then thats fine but how do I work out if this is indeed the correct height ? If I take the measurement from RC Andersons book and fit this onto the ship , again how do I know this is the correct height. Where am I measuring from if not the deck , Perhaps its the keel ?Too be fair it is very interesting but as I have only been building models for just over a year and only my second period ship. I know everyone is trying to help me and it is very much appreciated however at the moment I am feeling a bit of overload.There is rather a lot information out there and a lot of it is conflicting and altogether confusing. Hopefully one day the penny will drop and I will see the light.

OOps it looks like I have used the wrong draught as I have indeed set the mizzen channel further aft and have not lined up the front dead eye with the aft of the mast. I now think its possibly too late to change this now. I also asked the question in a previous post regarding the position of the mizzen channel and I think the answer I got was believe to avoid the swivel guns posts. I have now placed the Mizzen channel so that the swivel gun post is in between shrouds 2 and 3 and will hopefully miss the swivel gun when this is mounted. I also used this draught which someone sent me when I asked the question in a previous post.

Thank you for that Derek and please forgive my ignorance but if those mast lengths include the section below the deck how cam we then work out the length of the main mast above the deck and then work out every thing else from that. Also when looking at James lees The Masting of Rigging of English ships of War . I thought it only covered rated ships. If the Endeavour is not rated, what is her classification. Fortunately I am the proud owner of James Lees book but I am unfortunately too ignorant to find such information as your good self. However I am a willing student. best regards Dave