Matrim

(Note: The drawings below are really rough)
 
It's both to give an intersecting point in space. The problem is that we know there are complex curves above waterline 5 and aft of station 29 and the plans give us no information about this area.
 

Below W4 things are pretty straightforward because we have the shapes at the waterlines and adding new station lines aft of S29 is pretty much like nailing a batten on.
 

We add in what info we have.
 

 
And here we run in to my lack of skill, Transom 3 (in blue above) should have another curve on the aft surface curving forwards at the bottom edge.
 
More importantly there is a shape, roughly an eighth of a sphere (visualise an orange cut vertically into four quarters the once horizontally giving eight "triangular" segments) with one of the points touching one of those top aft corners. (or something like that)
 
The plans give no information about this shape or how it fairs into the waterlines etc we do have.
 

Obviously the above drawing has errors, T2 is too wide t4 is too narrow and the curves aren't there.

I'm going to have to call it a 'rounded corner', an eighth of a sphere isn't right (but that's what is shown here). However you can see where the rounded corner cuts into T4 and T5, they will have to be shaped to fit.


The rounded corner will need to follow the curve of station 29 and transom 3 will need to be extended outside the lower deck.

The rounded corner will have to have a tighter radius.

Bleugh , nomenclature incorrect, it is new station lines I want... So I decided to do this so I could improve the curve. The gap between station lines on the sheer around this area of the plan is 62 inches so I added 4 new station lines beyond the last station and one more in front of it at 15.5inch gaps. (Following image shows 'new' station lines in pink with the top one highlighted in red with the vertical constructions at the waterline points made)
 


I then pushed a construction line up from the relevant waterlines and connected on the body plan to get the correct representation higher up. First image shows the same line as above generated, the lower all the new stations on the body
 

 

Now I have more lines of reference for generating the shape of the transoms on the sheer.

It would be easier if I could add some extra waterlines the problem being how to draw on the sheer..

Made my first attempt at the lowest filler transom using a combination of the master plan and inner post. It helped when someone pointed out that the inside line is not terribly important as its non viewable and as long as the shape is tracked anything which might use it can then be adjusted accordingly.
 
With that said my approach was to throw constructions down to the sheer and do an entire waterline then to trim using the body to the correct size
 

 
I could then use the inner post plan to add the correct chunk for the joint and then took an approximate size for the width

 
If there is anything hideously wrong with the approach then please shriek! One curiosity Turbocad wise was that I found the control points curve was happier with this than the bezier.
 
One thing done differently to the pictures above was that the width of the joint is slightly wider than the keel so I took the start point from there in the end.
 
This piece still needs the scores for the vertical filler pieces on the bottom side (which will be done at the end). I won't start on the rest of the filler pieces until Tuesday and I think I will switch to drawing them all on the master plan mainly so I have a track of where they are (the master plan is quite large at the moment) but that keeps the parts in a consistent location.
 
 

thanks both. That 'use the deck plan' for one of them (plus some extra for fairing) is a lovely idea. I can also then take that one and project back on the plan to see where the waterlines would be and then extrapolate the opposite for the others...
 
Crag gets extra points for using the actual plans of the ship I am building in his response (that was a surprise - I looked and thought - hold on that's my ship, I must have mis-read)

thanks both. That 'use the deck plan' for one of them (plus some extra for fairing) is a lovely idea. I can also then take that one and project back on the plan to see where the waterlines would be and then extrapolate the opposite for the others...
 
Crag gets extra points for using the actual plans of the ship I am building in his response (that was a surprise - I looked and thought - hold on that's my ship, I must have mis-read)

Well I'm certainly not one of them, I believe I'm further down the learning curve than you.
But since I have to do this myself sometime I had a play and this is what I came up with (not much):
 
This superimposes the frame plan (green) and the outboard profile (blue) over the inboard profile (red) and shows that the transoms are horizontal across the stern and that they are horizontal in profile except number 3 which tilts down following the lower deck.

 
Since number 3 tucks up under the lower deck, we can use the lower deck plan to get the shape of number 3.

That's about all I can come up with, hope it helps.
 
 

So, think of the transoms as waterlines in shape. (Yes the deck transom is canted slightly, but you can allow for that.) From the lines drawing you can develop the various waterlines for each transom, top and bottom surfaces. Yes, tedious, but that is the way to go 

Evening all. Having just finished the stern post/inner post and attached to the keel I am not turning my attention to the wing transom/deck transom and 4 filling transoms. Now these appear to be complicated little beasties.
 
From a plan perspective my plans have several cutaways of what I assume is the central spine of the transom and the frame plan has what I am guessing is possibly an end point (or middle end perhaps). I also have the fashion piece marked which is the end point.

Is there a logical way to describe how to work out the correct size of one of these (once one is done the others would duplicate the approach). I am guessing construction lines projected but am unsure so looking for assistance from the plans masters out there. 
 
Once these are out of the way then the cant/full frames will fill my time for a year or 2 and Wayne Kempson's wonderful CAD drafting plan covers how to create those in details so I will be good cad wise after these are done.
 
If anyone has any pointers on how to plan one of these out then I would be grateful.
 
For those just interested but without knowledge here is a cad view of the area in question with the transoms in green and the fashion piece (I think) in pink
 

 
and from the actual plans we have the body plan
 

 
frame plan with a curious wing shape
 

 
and the internal fittings plan
 

Hope the following is helpful,  The following is from Steel  for a 32
STEM  To be moulded 1' 3"    to be athwartships or sided at the head 1' 7"    And to diminish from the head to the lower side of the     lower cheek to upper cheek To be sided at the keel 1'1" (same as the keel at the fore end)
 
APRON- The false stem, or apron, to be 8.5" thick (SR gives 9.5") broad as the stem if rabbet is in the middle,  otherwise 1' 7"  To give proper shift to the scarphs of the stem, and the  scarphs to be 1' 2" in length (SR - 10.5")
Allan
 
All the scantlings from the 1719 Establishment through Steel's Elements and Practice can be found in Scantlings of Royal Navy Ships at Seawatch Books.
 
Allan

thanks, though isn't that the knee of the head?
 
I have must replaced my pc and my turbocad program is refusing to activate so once that is sorted I will add a direct plan of the part in question. Sorry for any confusion (though the knee information will be useful when i move to that section)

The same tapering can be found in the scantlings in Steel's Elements and Practice of Naval Architecture 1805 and The Shipbuilder's repository 1788.   The following are the dimensions for a 32 gun.
Allan

Couple of plan shots while I work on the middle and upper apron.
 
First up I am gradually refining my technique when creating build templates. My new structure is to extend the edges of joints with blue lines (the joints themselves being a burnt red), these lines are then used as a cut check when milling so I can start on the extension line and move inwards. I am also adding a lot of opposing green lines (I may even double these up in future). I use these as table saw cut lines that allow me place the wood at these points and know that (hopefully..) the actual cut line being milled will then be horizontal.

Example for middle apron  - it looks complex (which is why I simplified the colours) but does help when cutting.
 

 
The next plan (just done now) is a combined view of the forward keel, apron stem and some other. I plan to use this to ensure the eventual combined apron and stem is accurate.

Couple of plan shots while I work on the middle and upper apron.
 
First up I am gradually refining my technique when creating build templates. My new structure is to extend the edges of joints with blue lines (the joints themselves being a burnt red), these lines are then used as a cut check when milling so I can start on the extension line and move inwards. I am also adding a lot of opposing green lines (I may even double these up in future). I use these as table saw cut lines that allow me place the wood at these points and know that (hopefully..) the actual cut line being milled will then be horizontal.

Example for middle apron  - it looks complex (which is why I simplified the colours) but does help when cutting.
 

 
The next plan (just done now) is a combined view of the forward keel, apron stem and some other. I plan to use this to ensure the eventual combined apron and stem is accurate.

Couple of plan shots while I work on the middle and upper apron.
 
First up I am gradually refining my technique when creating build templates. My new structure is to extend the edges of joints with blue lines (the joints themselves being a burnt red), these lines are then used as a cut check when milling so I can start on the extension line and move inwards. I am also adding a lot of opposing green lines (I may even double these up in future). I use these as table saw cut lines that allow me place the wood at these points and know that (hopefully..) the actual cut line being milled will then be horizontal.

Example for middle apron  - it looks complex (which is why I simplified the colours) but does help when cutting.
 

 
The next plan (just done now) is a combined view of the forward keel, apron stem and some other. I plan to use this to ensure the eventual combined apron and stem is accurate.

Couple of plan shots while I work on the middle and upper apron.
 
First up I am gradually refining my technique when creating build templates. My new structure is to extend the edges of joints with blue lines (the joints themselves being a burnt red), these lines are then used as a cut check when milling so I can start on the extension line and move inwards. I am also adding a lot of opposing green lines (I may even double these up in future). I use these as table saw cut lines that allow me place the wood at these points and know that (hopefully..) the actual cut line being milled will then be horizontal.

Example for middle apron  - it looks complex (which is why I simplified the colours) but does help when cutting.
 

 
The next plan (just done now) is a combined view of the forward keel, apron stem and some other. I plan to use this to ensure the eventual combined apron and stem is accurate.

Couple of plan shots while I work on the middle and upper apron.
 
First up I am gradually refining my technique when creating build templates. My new structure is to extend the edges of joints with blue lines (the joints themselves being a burnt red), these lines are then used as a cut check when milling so I can start on the extension line and move inwards. I am also adding a lot of opposing green lines (I may even double these up in future). I use these as table saw cut lines that allow me place the wood at these points and know that (hopefully..) the actual cut line being milled will then be horizontal.

Example for middle apron  - it looks complex (which is why I simplified the colours) but does help when cutting.
 

 
The next plan (just done now) is a combined view of the forward keel, apron stem and some other. I plan to use this to ensure the eventual combined apron and stem is accurate.

Tidied up the sides of the piece and gap dry fitted to the pieces above and below. Leaving the 'extra' below the shelf (which will eventually by angled to allow the planks to sit) as I have generally read its better to leave 'meat' there..
 

 

Looks good!  Nice use of the tools to achieve this nice crisp bit of joinery.
 
cheers
 
Pat

Time for an update. I have been working on the rear deadwood plans (with a question elsewhere on site) while I waited for some thicker wood stock to arrive for the lower apron. I also have had some interesting thoughts on plan accuracy. It suddenly occurred to me that I might be obsessing overly about 'correct' sizes when the reality is that as long as I use the master plan as the target for every step then any inconsistency in lower steps will be counteracted. That's not to say that being accurate isn't good it's just that it's cope able if the process is correct. So as an example lets say I misunderstood Steel (very very possible) and I made my rising wood 1mm to high! As long as when I seat my frames I use the model height of the rising wood (say 9mm (random numbers) versus the should have been 8mm) and thus make the floor depth say 29mm instead of 30mm then the problem gets ironed out. An issue would only occur should I just use plan measurements for the next piece. Hopefully that makes sense to someone.
 
Anyway onto the next piece which is the lower apron (wood having arrived). It's not 'done' yet as this is my practice piece which I only use if by a miracle its perfect and this wasn't but only due to the last cut.
 
For the plans I did my usual job of adding lots of helper lines, the usual orange ones indicating parallel to cut lines and the green were sighting lines to try and help line up both plans. You will notice this also needs a mirrored plan due to the ledge.
 

This is a cut out of the full sheet which includes the other two apron pieces. One of the things I found very helpful when cutting this piece is ensuring all four sides of the blank were square (and not just two L sides which is what I usually do). This is due to the key fact that the bottom left of the apron is horizontal and flat and the three vertical lines are all at right angles to that line. Therefore I can cut my pattern and place it on the bottom of the wood blank and know I can use the sides of the blanks in the mill to allow me to accurately cut the inner of the right hand vertical cuts..
 
Anyway the process I ended up with was as follows. Overly detailed perhaps as ever..
 
1 - Cut blanks oversize
2 - Thickness blanks to target width with thicknesser
3 - use table saw to make certain all 4 sides were both flat and at right angles to each other
4 - Add pattern to one side using the bottom left vertical and horizontal lines as the line up points
5 - Use the left vertical side as the mill base and cut out the inner of the right two vertical joints (in this practice piece I actually did this the other way round with 6 and 7 which made things harder so this is how it will happen next time)
6 - Use the table saw to cut along the big orange line (which is parallel to the face of the joint)
 

7 - Use the step 6 cut as the base inside the mill to allow me to mill the face of the joint



8 - Use the sc roll saw to cut along the upper edge of the apron.
 
 

 
(Plus rough fit with fore deadwood above)

9 - Add the reverse pattern to the other side of the plan using the upper cut, and left two straights to help align.
10 - Use a scalpel to cut out the upper section of the paper pattern (above the red line) which marks the ledge position.
 
11 - Use the mill to cut out the depth required for the cut. Not exact here but the best procedure seemed to be to start on the right and move to the left (best sight line) and basically cut outside the line a little then slowly move it into the line. You end up with lots of tiny humps which will need smoothing out later but the key is that this gives an accurate side of the shelf.
12 - Use the scalpel to repeat step 10 but on the other side of the piece
13 - Repeat step 11 for the other side of the piece.
 
 

For 11 and 13 I hit a problem with how I was holding the piece and in the test cut changing this half way through (as the clamp started interfering with the mill) adjusted the depth of cut slightly causing the last 20mm of one side to be .1-.5 mm deeper than it should be
 
14 - Tidy the ledge curve with a scalpel
15 - Sand the end to the correct size
16 - Dry fit with surrounding pieces to see if continuing is possible. With the test piece it dry fitted nicely on the stem and with the upper deadwood above - all three needed some tidying but nothing major from the looks of things which was a relief.
 
 
So the pictures are actually with a slightly different order than above but it gives the general idea.
 
Thanks for reading.

Tidied up the sides of the piece and gap dry fitted to the pieces above and below. Leaving the 'extra' below the shelf (which will eventually by angled to allow the planks to sit) as I have generally read its better to leave 'meat' there..
 

 

Tidied up the sides of the piece and gap dry fitted to the pieces above and below. Leaving the 'extra' below the shelf (which will eventually by angled to allow the planks to sit) as I have generally read its better to leave 'meat' there..
 

 

Tidied up the sides of the piece and gap dry fitted to the pieces above and below. Leaving the 'extra' below the shelf (which will eventually by angled to allow the planks to sit) as I have generally read its better to leave 'meat' there..
 

 

Time for an update. I have been working on the rear deadwood plans (with a question elsewhere on site) while I waited for some thicker wood stock to arrive for the lower apron. I also have had some interesting thoughts on plan accuracy. It suddenly occurred to me that I might be obsessing overly about 'correct' sizes when the reality is that as long as I use the master plan as the target for every step then any inconsistency in lower steps will be counteracted. That's not to say that being accurate isn't good it's just that it's cope able if the process is correct. So as an example lets say I misunderstood Steel (very very possible) and I made my rising wood 1mm to high! As long as when I seat my frames I use the model height of the rising wood (say 9mm (random numbers) versus the should have been 8mm) and thus make the floor depth say 29mm instead of 30mm then the problem gets ironed out. An issue would only occur should I just use plan measurements for the next piece. Hopefully that makes sense to someone.
 
Anyway onto the next piece which is the lower apron (wood having arrived). It's not 'done' yet as this is my practice piece which I only use if by a miracle its perfect and this wasn't but only due to the last cut.
 
For the plans I did my usual job of adding lots of helper lines, the usual orange ones indicating parallel to cut lines and the green were sighting lines to try and help line up both plans. You will notice this also needs a mirrored plan due to the ledge.
 

This is a cut out of the full sheet which includes the other two apron pieces. One of the things I found very helpful when cutting this piece is ensuring all four sides of the blank were square (and not just two L sides which is what I usually do). This is due to the key fact that the bottom left of the apron is horizontal and flat and the three vertical lines are all at right angles to that line. Therefore I can cut my pattern and place it on the bottom of the wood blank and know I can use the sides of the blanks in the mill to allow me to accurately cut the inner of the right hand vertical cuts..
 
Anyway the process I ended up with was as follows. Overly detailed perhaps as ever..
 
1 - Cut blanks oversize
2 - Thickness blanks to target width with thicknesser
3 - use table saw to make certain all 4 sides were both flat and at right angles to each other
4 - Add pattern to one side using the bottom left vertical and horizontal lines as the line up points
5 - Use the left vertical side as the mill base and cut out the inner of the right two vertical joints (in this practice piece I actually did this the other way round with 6 and 7 which made things harder so this is how it will happen next time)
6 - Use the table saw to cut along the big orange line (which is parallel to the face of the joint)
 

7 - Use the step 6 cut as the base inside the mill to allow me to mill the face of the joint



8 - Use the sc roll saw to cut along the upper edge of the apron.
 
 

 
(Plus rough fit with fore deadwood above)

9 - Add the reverse pattern to the other side of the plan using the upper cut, and left two straights to help align.
10 - Use a scalpel to cut out the upper section of the paper pattern (above the red line) which marks the ledge position.
 
11 - Use the mill to cut out the depth required for the cut. Not exact here but the best procedure seemed to be to start on the right and move to the left (best sight line) and basically cut outside the line a little then slowly move it into the line. You end up with lots of tiny humps which will need smoothing out later but the key is that this gives an accurate side of the shelf.
12 - Use the scalpel to repeat step 10 but on the other side of the piece
13 - Repeat step 11 for the other side of the piece.
 
 

For 11 and 13 I hit a problem with how I was holding the piece and in the test cut changing this half way through (as the clamp started interfering with the mill) adjusted the depth of cut slightly causing the last 20mm of one side to be .1-.5 mm deeper than it should be
 
14 - Tidy the ledge curve with a scalpel
15 - Sand the end to the correct size
16 - Dry fit with surrounding pieces to see if continuing is possible. With the test piece it dry fitted nicely on the stem and with the upper deadwood above - all three needed some tidying but nothing major from the looks of things which was a relief.
 
 
So the pictures are actually with a slightly different order than above but it gives the general idea.
 
Thanks for reading.